wheaten males with light brown lacing

[Blue Egg Acres]

Several of the wheaten cockerels from my spring \'08 hatch, now 10 months old, have light brown lacing in the breast and/or shoulder/fluff areas. I have not seen this on wheaten males before. I have had some blue wheaten males that have had red lacing and/or ticking in these areas. Is this the same thing but shows up as light brown on a wheaten? Or am I dealing with something else here?

[Jean]

Do you have a picture we could take a gander at?

Jean

[John]

Barbara,
My guess is we have the pattern gene (Pg) in the wheatens and that is causing the brown (gold) to somewhat lace the breast and tail feathers.  I think it would do the same to silvers, but cause white (silver) in the breast and tail instead of brown.  I mentioned in another topic recently that the cockerel that Jean bred has a lot of brown in the tail and believe the off color in both areas is caused by the same modifying gene(s).  
To get complete or good lacing Melanotic (Ml) is needed with Pg.  Both are dominant and may produce better lacing on other e-locus genes like e^b.  It would seem more probable with recessive genes, but maybe these cockerels received Pg from one parent and Ml from the other(?).  The Ml may also intensify the unwanted black in the hackle we contend with.  This is all just speculation on my part.  
One reason I don\'t breed blue wheatens is because the blue doesn\'t show up as well as black and I can be more critical breeding for or against the black color in wheatens.  
Either way we have to keep breeding from the best hoping to eliminate the unwanted genes.  Producing as many chicks as possible from several matings and culling heavily will help.

[Blue Egg Acres]

Jean, I will try to get pics tomorrow.

John, thanks for the info- very helpful.

[Mike Gilbert]

Here is a quote from Bantam Standard for description of male wheaten breast color.   \"Upper breast - lustrous black, sparsely laced with red, pure black preferred.\"  End quote.  Lacing in the breast of wheaten and blue wheaten males is common, in some strains moreso than others.     Here is another quote.   \"Body - black, sparsely laced with red at approach to stern, pure black preferred.\"   End quote.       This should tell us that excess lacing in wheaten males, not just Ameraucanas, has been an issue since the standards were written.   The key is to raise enough and maintain enough genetic diversity to be able to select desireable breeders.     What would poultry breeding be without challenges?    This is why I no longer breed solid colored birds except buff - which is another story in itself.

[Blue Egg Acres]

Mike, thanks for that information. I assume that the brown lacing is \"red\"? Here is a pic.

[Mike Gilbert]

Yes.    And yes, he does have too much of it, but if he is best in all other respects he is still usable.

[Guest]

The APA Standard says for Large Fowl Ameraucana males (same as Old English Game Bantam)--
\"Front of neck - black.
Breast: Black with green luster.
Lower thighs - black.\"

I\'d thought that red lacing was highly undesirable in the breast on Large Fowl (Maybe it\'s not on Bantams??). If it\'s not that serious in Large Fowl, I\'d be happy, because I may end up this year with 1 or more Wheaten or Blue Wheaten cockerels with red lacing on breast feathers.

Opinions?

And is there somewhere central where acceptable or desired deviations from or additions to characteristics listed in the Standard are recorded for breeders to reference?

Thanks for any info.

[Guest]

Barbara,
Lovely color on his hackles!!

[John]

If it\'s not that serious in Large Fowl,

It is the same for LF and bantams = APA.  You wouldn\'t want to show a bird like that or breed from him if you have better ones.
I\'m using two LF wheatens in breeding pens this year.  One has better type and size, but the other has better color.  Neither is prefect, but each one has some good points.

[Mike Gilbert]

I\'m using two LF wheatens in breeding pens this year.  One has better type and size . . . (end quote]

Good advice.   As the old saying goes, \"First build the barn, then paint it.\"    What makes poultry breeding fun is that there are so many different points to consider, especially so with parti-colored birds.   Sometimes we tend to focus on one or two relatively minor points to the exclusion of all the others.    We need size and type in the large fowl wheatens, including a full body and breast in the males.   Temperament,  disease resistance, and productivity are three other important aspects to consider.  I would go there first before throwing out what might be valuable breeders based on their finer color points.