Author Topic: Partridge Ameraucana  (Read 34929 times)

angora831

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Partridge Ameraucana
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2012, 08:11:46 PM »
This picture stuff is above my skill level.  Had to get help from the wife.  These are two of the darker chicks that are showing the partridge markings.  Right now these are the only two out of around 3 dozen eggs that were set.  Only 15 got to hatching.  Lots of lighter chicks and other shades.  More hatchings every day.  I think I have got past the fertility problems.  We\'ll see.

Beth C

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Partridge Ameraucana
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2012, 08:31:56 PM »
Beautiful!! These are F2s, right? I hope at some point I can work with you on these - of all the colors chickens come in, partridge is probably my favorite.

Mike Gilbert

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Partridge Ameraucana
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2012, 10:37:08 AM »
Ken, the better the barring when they are chicks, the better the pencilling will be on the females when they mature.  It looks like you are making progress.

Jean

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Partridge Ameraucana
« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2012, 09:55:47 AM »
Ken,

What was your first cross on this project?  Specifically male to female.

I notice you have single combed and clean faced offspring.

I would like to find out if there is a correlation between male and female crosses and resulting offspring with pea combs and beards and muffs.

I don\'t know if I have just been lucky, but I haven\'t gotten any single combs with my crosses yet.  I had a few clean faced birds in the F1\'s, but didn\'t use them to further the project.  I have gotten some clean faced in the F2\'s, but that is because some of the pullets I am using must only have one copy of the beard and muff gene. (an issue to work out in my current line of bantam blacks)

The above results are from my bantam cross only, I just started my large fowl project and don\'t have enough data to confirm anything.  I am breeding them differently because there is no size issue and will have quicker results.
Jean

angora831

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Partridge Ameraucana
« Reply #19 on: March 30, 2012, 02:32:01 PM »
The initial crosses were LF Black Ameraucana cocks over LF Partridge Plymouth Rock hens.  These were probably 75% of my matings last year.  I did get a Partride Rock rooster late and he was bred with LF Black Ameraucana hens.  Most of the F1  pullet chicks that I kept from both crosses along with the cockerals were selected for leg color and size.  All had some muffs and beards, some to a greater degree than others and I did not keep any that were clean faced.  The F1 cockeral/cock used in this mating has a pea type comb.  That was one of the reasons I kept him along with his leg color.  Other than these two chicks above I only hatched another partridge the other day.  It is going to be a numbers game and I have plenty of eggs in the incubator.  Fingers crossed and some more partridge are on the way.

angora831

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Partridge Ameraucana
« Reply #20 on: April 01, 2012, 05:40:40 PM »
A question for the genetics gurus out there.  In my cross of Partridge Plymouth Rock x Black Ameraucana I know that in theory I should get 25% that will be Partridge Ameraucana and at this point 25% that are pretty much yellow in color with my F1 crosses..  I am getting what appear to be blue chicks, chicks that are all black and some that are a darker brown without the partridge markings at this time.  Genetically speaking what colors could I expect from the middle 50% of the crosses that would be heterozygous(???) from the F1 breedings.
This is all new ground for me and I know except for the Partridge chicks the others will be mutts, but just thought a question in theoretical genetics would be interesting.

Ken

Jean

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Partridge Ameraucana
« Reply #21 on: April 01, 2012, 05:53:12 PM »
Ken,

Have you used the kip calculator???

http://kippenjungle.nl/kruising.html?mgt=Sloc:s+/s+,Iloc:i+/i+,Eloc:E^R/E^R&fgt=Sloc:s+/-,Iloc:i+/i+,Eloc:e+/e+
Jean

Mike Gilbert

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Partridge Ameraucana
« Reply #22 on: April 01, 2012, 06:18:01 PM »
Quote from: angora831
A question for the genetics gurus out there.  In my cross of Partridge Plymouth Rock x Black Ameraucana I know that in theory I should get 25% that will be Partridge Ameraucana and at this point 25% that are pretty much yellow in color with my F1 crosses..  I am getting what appear to be blue chicks, chicks that are all black and some that are a darker brown without the partridge markings at this time.  Genetically speaking what colors could I expect from the middle 50% of the crosses that would be heterozygous(???) from the F1 breedings.


Ken, that 25% ratio applies only to each of the different genes need to make partridge color.  If you do the math you will see how unlikely it is to get all the right genes in one individual.  But don\'t be discouraged; you knew this would not be easy.   You will get a spectrum of colors by breeding the F-1\'s to each other.  I think I might have bred the F-1\'s back to their parents to get quicker results on the feather coloring, and saved the ones with necessary Ameraucana traits like hetero pea combs, dark legs, green eggs, muffs.  Unless you plan to hatch many hundreds of chicks this year, you may well be forced to use some F-2\'s next time that are less than optimal with regard to feather coloring.  Don\'t be too picky on color this year, otherwise you will run into too-close inbreeding very soon in the project.  We\'re pulling for you.

angora831

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Partridge Ameraucana
« Reply #23 on: April 01, 2012, 07:18:27 PM »
Mike, thanks for the encouragement, it is appreciated. In the dark chicks I only have 3 that have shown the partridge markings.  Are you saying that the other dark brown chicks could also be \"Partridge\" even though the penciling is not showing?  As someone mentioned these 3 partridge chicks that I do have are clean faced and appear to be single combed.  Leg color appears to be dark and not yellow.  The F1 hens have muffs and beards and are laying mostly blue eggs.  An occasional greenish one pops up from time to time.
I still have the original Partridge Rock cock and hens and a few of the Black Ameraucana hens, but no Black Ameraucana cock.  I still can breed the F1 back to the originals.  Are you suggesting breeding back to the Rocks or Ameraucanas or both to work on the Ameraucana traits and/or color?  Thanks for the help, it is always appreciated.

Ken

John

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Partridge Ameraucana
« Reply #24 on: April 01, 2012, 08:37:12 PM »
Quote
Are you saying that the other dark brown chicks could also be \"Partridge\" even though the penciling is not showing?

Ken,
I know Mike mentioned \"partridge color\" and I\'m sure that you two are on the same page with this topic.
I just want to mention something that can be confusing with some variety names.  Wheaten and birchen are names of varieties (colors/patterns), but also names of the e-locus genes that those varieties and others are based on.
The partridge variety is based on brown (eb), but some used to call this e-locus gene partridge (ep).  

Mike Gilbert

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Partridge Ameraucana
« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2012, 10:04:26 AM »
Ken, no, what I\'m saying is that some of those brown chicks will be carrying some of the necessary components to make the partridge color, but not all of the components.    The e-locus gene is e^b, but then you have pattern gene (Pg) and mahogany (Mh) as well.  All are inherited independently of each other.  So instead of 25%, it is 25% X 25% X 25%.  That comes out to less than 2 truly partridge chicks per 100 hatched.   But since Mh and Pg are dominant genes, you will get more that show evidence of pencilling, but will be heterozygous;  they won\'t breed true for those genes.  Without looking it up, I don\'t remember if there are any more or not, so somebody can jump in here and help. But they all need to be homozygous (two copies, one from each parent) in order to get a good partridge color that consistently throws good partridge offspring.

Christie Rhae

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Partridge Ameraucana
« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2012, 01:39:07 PM »
I have been reading these posts and finally decided to look up what \"partridge\" was.  Wow I love those markings!
Why am I attracted to the impossible long shots?  lol

John

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Partridge Ameraucana
« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2012, 01:59:57 PM »
Quote
So instead of 25%, it is 25% X 25% X 25%. That comes out to less than 2 truly partridge chicks per 100 hatched.

I remember when I was developing the bantam lavenders I had a 1 in 16 chance of getting a chick with two (maybe more as I recall) of the characteristics required.  I hatched lots of chicks that year and got one!
Do your homework and don\'t give up easily.

angora831

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Partridge Ameraucana
« Reply #28 on: April 02, 2012, 05:57:29 PM »
That makes it clearer to me now.  I guess I got my 2 out of 100 from the first dozen or so eggs that hatched.  On to the next 100!  
Back to breeding the F1s back to the original parents.  I am trying to wrap my head around the genetics.  I definitely want to intensify the Ameraucana traits that these F2 chicks seem to be lacking.  I get the impression that these are easier to get, except maybe leg color by going back to good black Ameraucanas.  On the flip side if I go back and breed with Partridge Rock stock to possibly bring in more color and pencilling do I then stand the chance of also bringing in stronger yellowing in the legs? Does one breeding go before the other?
I am going to hang on to some of the F2 darker chicks to see how they turn out.  If they are heterozygous for the Pg gene and I breed them back to Partridge Rocks that should again increase the chances for homozygous Pg.  That may be too simple, but that is what I am thinking right now.  The deeper I get into this project the more \"stuff\" I have to contend with, but what else do I have to do make life exciting on the prairie?  As always, thanks again folks, your advice is super.

Ken

Mike Gilbert

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Partridge Ameraucana
« Reply #29 on: April 02, 2012, 06:09:46 PM »
Quote from: angora831
 On the flip side if I go back and breed with Partridge Rock stock to possibly bring in more color and pencilling do I then stand the chance of also bringing in stronger yellowing in the legs? Does one breeding go before the other?


Ken the gene for yellow skin epidermis is present in all your F1\'s from the initial cross;  it is recessive and does not show because there is only one copy instead of the necessary two that would make it show.   If you are careful to use only those  birds from the F2 generation without yellow skin, the cross back to Partridge Rocks will result in half with yellow shank epidermis and half without.  All those without will be like the F1\'s :  carriers.   That is something you can breed out later through test matings.  As long as you are not breeding crosslings with yellow skin you will make progress.