Adding more info on Ameraucana and AOV requirements to the APA Standard

[Guest]

Earlier today, I emailed the below suggestions to APA and ABA leaders for their review and consideration, and wanted to post here for ABC input. I will pass on additional info I receive.
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Questions for the group:
What are the official, APA-specified requirements for a chicken to be shown in the AOV color variety class for a breed?

The APA Standards book section on \"Recognition of New Breeds and Varieties\" says only, \"Information in regard to the requirements for acceptance may be obtained from the Secretary of the American Poultry Association, Inc.\"

I would strongly suggest the information be published in the APA Standards book, even if updates need to be acquired from the Secretary when a new variety makes formal application for addition to the APA (\"admission to the Standard\"). Otherwise, anyone but the very informed, initiated, long-range-planned person is precluded from making decisions in their breeding and showing actions that are guided by information that allows effective decision-making.
If the information were to be added to the APA book, I imagine it would specify that characteristics (color pattern and otherwise) of birds entered in the AOV color variety class should be characteristics that have the potential for consistent genetic continuation (with minimum predictability of 50% or other ??%). That would encourage showing of birds with potential for ongoing development, while restricting entries of \"wild-card\" birds that would not be able to help further the breed.

In the APA Standards book, there is a section describing the requirements for each breed. For Ameraucanas, it specifies:
* Blue eggs (Suggestion: Revise to \"Blue egg shell, with outer tinting of olive or green-blue permissible but less desirable.\")
* Presence of muffs and beard, and absence of ear tufts.
* Detailed sizes, shapes and manner of carriage for various parts of the body and feathering.
* Four toes.

However, there are additional foundation qualities that will definitely be required for any \"project\" variety that is under development to ultimately be approved as a new Ameraucana variety. These include (according to my understanding to this point):
* LEG TYPE: Clean-legged/unfeathered
* COLOR OF LEG SHANKS AND TOES: Slate, dark slate or black (to be specified for each individual variety when admitted to the Standard) with pinkish white footpads
* SKIN COLOR: White.
* EYE COLOR: Reddish bay. Brown is also permissible, but a demerit.
* BEAK COLOR: Shade of horn, or black (to be specified for each individual variety when admitted to the Standard).
* COLOR OF COMB, FACE, WATTLES AND EARLOBES: Red in males, pale red in females (Non-opaque white permissible in earlobes of females of specified Varieties. [Need to also add note in Wheaten & Blue-Wheaten female sub-sections stating that this coloring is acceptable for those.]).

* * * * Where would it be best to have this information? * * * *
Add it to the breed category description? Add an AOV sub-category and put it there?

It would provide helpful and truly needed information and guidance that would allow all of us to really collaborate. Then fewer efforts would go to waste, the breed could be more effectively furthered, and enthusiasts would have less individual frustration and disappointment.

[philipu]

I was a member of the ABC and  had let the membership lapse.
I am back,
It seems we are always wanting to add more and more varieties, the old english club of america has more varieties than I can count, but if you look at what is the best type in the breed, you will find
BBR, Black, White, at the top of the list....
for type, etc....

I think it\'s more important to get the varieties we have listed in the ABA and APA book of standards so that they will breed true, in their size and type, blue egg color, not olive green, if I ever get a bird that\'s laying green egg it\'s gone. it will not be used in my breeding, shank color, eye color also very important. .
Also the muff and beard  forming the three separate lobes.
The ear lobes must remain red, the only time you might see
white, in ear lobe of female, could be during her laying cycle.
but not white, that is not acceptable to me.

On AOV ( I believe this must be well documented, for the purpose of the variety to breed true to it\'s color, or colors, like in the different blue varieties) the AOV it must meet all the requirements that the other
varieties listed require, regarding shank color, lobe color, eye color, muff and beard, etc...egg to be blue,  there should not be allowances made...
if I were to work toward another variety, heaven forbid,
I would want it to meet all the requirements of the ABC , APA and ABA....
I know that there are individuals who are working to producing a Lavender, self blue in other breeds, like old english.
Also if you look at the different standards of ABA and APA there
are some differences in different breeds what is accepted in one isn\'t accepted in the other.

I\'m starting to ramble, so I will close on this rambling tirade.

I love the Ameraucana for what it is...I just want to make sure if I am going to raise and breed the Ameraucana I want to get
the breed as close to perfection of what is stated for
our breed in the Standard of Perfection...and there still is not a perfect bird....
One bird, I  really liked and still remember was a bird that
Suz bred, a bantam wheaten ameraucana

This is just my opinion, this breed is till relatively new, and
as in all breeds we need to get what we have going right on the breeding, thanks for listening.
phil

[Tailfeathers]

I agree with Phil.  In the interest of saving time, I have copied and pasted here a comment I recently made to BYC on this topic:

I\'ll be going to a show in about a month.  You raise some interesting questions and I will address them with the judges.  Since I have not looked at the AOV and since my brain has such limited capacity, I just have not looked into the requirements for the AOV category but something tells me that I was told the Ameraucana does not have a category for that in most shows.

As for the recommendation on the allowance of a \"\"Blue egg shell, with outer tinting of olive or green-blue permissible but less desirable.\"), I would be against that recommendation.  To have that occur would be to indicate that there is a brown egg layer gene still popping up.  To have it not occur would be an indication that there have been enough generations bred to eliminate it.  It is my opinion that the Ameraucana should produce a blue egg and anything other than that is an indication that continued selective breeding needs to occur.  

Johnny nailed it on the head with his last comments on what a true Ameraucana is and why.  The example of two varieties of Ameraucanas producing EEs is well put.  Just to drive it home even more clearer, if you cross a Blue Ameraucana with a Blue Wheaten Ameraucana you wind up with an EE.  This is because the genetics are totally different for the two and the progeny simply will not breed true.  It\'s as simple as that.

In summary, I am all for supporting the unbelievable, dedicated, time-consuming, and arduous efforts of those who undertook the extremely noteworthy task of getting the APA to accept the Ameraucana as a breed and identify it with a qualitative and quantifiable standard.  The Ameraucana is what it is.  If you don\'t like it, then find four other folks who think and believe as you do and go thru the five year process of getting your own breed established.  That is a perfectly acceptable and noteworthy goal for you to strive for and I hope you actually achieve it.

If you look closely at the extreme diligence, time, effort, and energy put into getting a particular breed/variety approved by the APA, it is quite easy to see why the requirements are there.  Otherwise, you could have everyone and his brother out there crossing all sorts of birds and calling them all sorts of things.  Folks who do not show may not approve of or appreciate the APA and its Standards but they\'re there for a good reason and they serve a valuable purpose.  

I\'d have to spend some time, which I don\'t have right now, but if memory serves me correctly, in order to get approved by the APA you have to have at least five different individual breeder flocks made up of at least 50 birds in each flock, that have been breeding true at least 50% of the time for at least 5 years and then on top of that they have to be shown at an APA sanctioned show a certain number of qualified events (I think it\'s 2 per year for each of the 5 years) which have a minimum number of birds at each show and then all those birds have to meet the suggested SOP.  

If we didn\'t have strict adherence to the Standard, eventually we\'d wind up with so much experimentation going on that the original breed would be lost forever.

Personally, I believe it would be an absolute travesty to have so much experimentation go on to the point where the original breed and the efforts that went into getting it established is lost.

That\'s my two-cents worth.

God Bless,

[verycherry]

In the APA Standards book, there is a section describing the requirements for each breed. For Ameraucanas, it specifies:
* Blue eggs (Suggestion: Revise to \"Blue egg shell, with outer tinting of olive or green-blue permissible but less desirable.\")

I also don\'t like adding this. It makes it to easy to skimp on the egg color. I think the word blue is good enough. The ideal would be sky blue, but there are a lot of eggs out there that have a very slight tint, aqua or whatever, but they\'re still blue enough to be considered blue by most. Adding the words olive or green-blue would be backsliding in my opinion, and in fact, I don\'t think there is a place for olive eggs at all. If the eggs are olive, they need a lot of work.

If there were to be a change, I\'d rather see something like:

* Blue eggs (Suggestion: Revise to \"Blue eggs, with Sky Blue being Ideal.)

To me, it implies understanding that not all eggs will be ideal and allows for some slight variation, without giving allowance for bad color.

[Mike Gilbert]

When it comes to the breed standard or changes to it, there are many individuals with many different opinions.   That is just one major reason why we have a breed club, to present a unified front to the APA and the ABA.   The way to get things done is to first build a consensus within the club, have a vote on issues of contention, and then have the club secretary contact the APA and ABA about requesting the changes.   This is the way it has been done in the past and should continue to be done in the future.   The club is not inflexible.   Changes have been recommended and/or made;  some I have agreed with from a personal standpoint and some I have not, but always we go with the majority.   For an individual member to contact the ABA or APA and request that changes be made is, well,  inconsiderate of others who have a vested interested in the breed.   I can think of several other adjectives as well but will not list them here.    Just to clear things up about the AOV subject, this is an acronym for Any Other Variety.    Birds should not be entered as AOV, but as splash, lavender, birchen, or whatever.   AOV is not a color variety or class.   I bring that up because there seemed to be some confusion about it at our recent national meet.   Let\'s move on.

[Guest]

To clear things up a bit, I had sent the message I posted above to the APA and ABA with the introduction:

\"In discussing various issues on a poultry forum, the below ideas came up. Please would you mind reviewing them and considering if some may be helpful and able to be implemented?\"

In the letter and in the post on BYC, I\'d inserted the following after the part about AOV issues, and before the part about Ameraucana-specific issues:

(Note: I am not sure how the American Bantam Association may already address this issue, but I will email a copy of this suggestion and link to this thread to both APA and ABA leaders for their review and consideration, and also send it to the Ameraucana Breeders Club.)

I was sending the message on to the APA and ABA mainly for the purpose of seeking AOV clarification, while providing some illustration of the reason it was needed.
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I also emailed the below to ABC leaders:

I am writing to ask whether it might be acceptable to post a link in the ABC Forum to a discussion going on in another online poultry forum.

It is my understanding that usually this is a discouraged practice, because of the potential for detracting from participation on the ABC Forum itself.

However, there is a discussion going on the backyardchickens.com forum where I think it would be valuable for more ABC members to be aware of and offer input, in addition to the ABC members who are already participating in that discussion.

I realize that the majority of hobbyists who post on BYC may not be show exhibitors or what ABC might die-hard Standards breeders. However, Ameraucanas are popular with many others. Positive perception and understanding of the ABC\'s practices will foster increase in membership and participation, particularly with younger breeders who are needed to perpetuate the club. Constructive communication will also encourage Ameraucanas to be selectively bred on a broader basis, which would do a lot for ensuring a future breeding pool that offers strong genetic diversity, while preserving important traits. Thirdly, as with every venture, collaborative thinking leverages the optimized results that come from informed and focused consideration from a variety of perspectives, to produce ideas and approaches that most effectively refine and promote a group\'s goals.

I\'d like to post a link to the BYC discussion within a thread in the ABC forum, with encouragement for club members to read and participate in the BYC thread, which starts at http://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=42149

Please would you let me know your thought on this? On BYC, discussions tend to progress rapidly but are quickly lost in the overall volume of threads once momentum of posting dies down. I think it would be important for ABC members to join discussion soon.

Please email me if you have concerns on which I might be able to give input. Thank you very much for any prompt feedback you can give, and for all your great service to the club!

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I wanted to as quickly as possible get communication coordinated , and didn\'t have lots of time. It takes me a long time to write things as involved as those topics were. As I review, I certainly see how the way I started this thread would cause misunderstanding of what was actually happening. I\'m sorry to sometimes cause confusion by not always editing more tightly and skimping on giving some details in my writing.

I agree that it is definitely an ABC consensus that should be used in submission of any Ameraucana-specific changes for serious APA and ABA consideration and action.

[Guest]

Below I\'m passing on response APA president provided to initial letter:

\"I am a little confused by your message but will do my best to answer.  

I think the idea of placing the procedures for admitting a new species, breed, or variety in the Standard has merit and I will ask that this be considered by the Standard Revision Committee and ultimately the Board of Directors.

I believe your second suggestion has to do with adding an AOV sub-category to the Ameraucanas and, I guess, all other breeds.  This is a source of my confusion.  The items that you suggest adding are simply breed characteristics that should be intuitively obvious to anyone who has read the breed description and is seriously working with the breed either in recognized or non-recognized varieties.  Therefore I do not see the value in this change.

Finally, you are asking about specific requirements for showing in an AOV class.  Again I am confused.  Typically, the AOV designation is used by show management, and/or breed clubs, not the APA, to designate varieties that are recognized in the Standard.  This situation is quite often encountered in state and county Fairs.  For instance, they may have classes for White Plymouth Rocks and Barred Plymouth Rocks and then an AOV Plymouth Rock class that would encompass all the remaining recognized varieties such as Buff, Blue, Columbian, Partridge, etc.  

Most shows will accept non-standard breeds and varieties as long as they fall within a recognized color pattern.  For instance, an exhibitor could show a BB Red or Silver Duckwing Ameraucana as long as it possessed the Ameraucana breed characteristics and the BB Red or Silver Duckwing color description contained elsewhere in the Standard.  Of course it would not be eligible for Best of Breed or higher awards since it is not a recognized Ameraucana variety.  What is not acceptable is to show an Ameraucana, or any other breed, that has a non-recognizable color pattern, just because it possesses the described breed characteristics.

I hope I have correctly interpreted and responded to your concerns/suggestions and thank you for your interest.\"

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I emailed further explanation back:

Thank you for the clarification on the AOV designation. I think it would be helpful to add an explanation of this to the Standard because judges still use the APA Standard\'s general breed category description (though no specific color variety sub-category description) in judging AOV classes, and because the APA Official Show Rules make reference to this sub-category and allow for it at shows sanctioned by the APA.

As an additional help, it might also be perhaps useful to have the latest (as of publication date) Official Show Rules included in the Standard for exhibitors to reference, with a note that updates occur regularly and an updated copy should be obtained for each show.

Because of the division between breed distinctions (Ameraucana vs. Easter Egger) that uniquely applies when birds have or do not have certain foundational characteristics for this type of chicken, it is important that all the critical characteristics be listed in the APA Standard, rather than just known by experienced Ameraucana breeders.

This specificity is not as important for other breeds where the meeting of APA requirements only determines whether the bird is (1) show-quality [color variety] [breed name], (2) show-quality AOV [breed name], or (3) pet-quality [breed name].

However, with Ameraucanas and Easter Eggers, it matters a lot that common sellers and buyers have applicable information to be able to call their birds by an accurate breed name. I should have suggested also skimming the whole thread (which starts at http://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=42149&p=1 ) in which my post appears, to put this concern in context. There are 9 pages of posts, but most of them aren\'t too long.

Note: Above, only to explain reason why further clarification in the Standard would be helpful--not to actually suggest specific additions.

[Guest]

Also, here are comments from the ABA vice-president that he inserted in reply to the original letter:

...What are the official, APA-specified requirements for a chicken to be shown in the AOV color variety class for a breed?

There are no requirement as the ABA does not have an AOV Class. AOV Classes are designed by breed clubs to include either nonstandard or rare varieties in their awards systems. Some breed clubs only allow non standard varieties while others like the Wyandotte Club of America only include rare standard colors in their AOV awards. While non standard varieties can be exhibited, they can do no better than BV-RV in the awards setup. The ABA would not be able to regulate or control AOV awards.

The APA Standards book section on \"Recognition of New Breeds and Varieties\" says only, \"Information in regard to the requirements for acceptance may be obtained from the Secretary of the American Poultry Association, Inc.\"

I would strongly suggest the information be published in the APA Standards book, even if updates need to be acquired from the Secretary when a new variety makes formal application for addition to the APA (\"admission to the Standard\"). Otherwise, anyone but the very informed, initiated, long-range-planned person is precluded from making decisions in their breeding and showing actions that are guided by information that allows effective decision-making.
If the information were to be added to the APA book, I imagine it would specify that characteristics (color pattern and otherwise) of birds entered in the AOV color variety class should be characteristics that have the potential for consistent genetic continuation (with minimum predictability of 50% or other ??%). That would encourage showing of birds with potential for ongoing development, while restricting entries of \"wild-card\" birds that would not be able to help further the breed.
(Note: I am not sure how the American Bantam Association may already address this issue, but I will email a copy of this suggestion and link to this thread to both APA and ABA leaders for their review and consideration, and also send it to the Ameraucana Breeders Club.)

The rules for acceptance are published in the ABA Yearbook annually.

In the APA Standards book, there is a section describing the requirements for each breed. For Ameraucanas, it specifies:
* Blue eggs (Suggestion: Revise to \"Blue egg shell, with outer tinting of olive or green-blue permissible but less desirable.\")
* Presence of muffs and beard, and absence of ear tufts.
* Detailed sizes, shapes and manner of carriage for various parts of the body and feathering.
* Four toes.

However, there are additional foundation qualities that will definitely be required for any \"project\" variety that is under development to ultimately be approved as a new Ameraucana variety. These include (according to my understanding to this point):
* LEG TYPE: Clean-legged/unfeathered
* COLOR OF LEG SHANKS AND TOES: Slate, dark slate or black (to be specified for each individual variety when admitted to the Standard) with pinkish white footpads
* SKIN COLOR: White.
* EYE COLOR: Reddish bay. Brown is also permissible, but a demerit.
* BEAK COLOR: Shade of horn, or black (to be specified for each individual variety when admitted to the Standard).
* COLOR OF COMB, FACE, WATTLES AND EARLOBES: Red in males, pale red in females (Non-opaque white permissible in earlobes of females of specified Varieties. [Need to also add note in Wheaten & Blue-Wheaten female sub-sections stating that this coloring is acceptable for those.]).

* * * * Where would it be best to have this information? * * * *
Add it to the breed category description? Add an AOV sub-category and put it there?

It cannot be added as per our judging instructions. Birds are judged by variety, then class. There is no place or sound system for an AOV class. Those raising Non-Standard varieties or even new Breeds must follow the guide lines set for by the ABA. While some shows allow Non Standard varieties and breeds to be exhibited, the exhibitor realizes the best award they can achieve is BV or RV and the bird can compete no further. If a Breed Club chooses to offer an AOV award, they can do so with their own rules and exceptions but they realize a nonstandard variety will have those limitations mentioned above. Hope this answers some of your questions.

[Guest]

I hope this thread might be of benefit in communicating helpful information, and in exploring potentially useful ideas.
The issues examined are ones that have been unclear to many people in some situations.

[John]

I think the word blue is good enough.

Right on.