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Need some advice with breeding

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Guest:
I\'m sure not a genetics expert nor well experienced in breeding Ameraucana. It has been my experience, though, that bleed will show more frequently [and therefore often first in a line of B/B/S] on the male splash of B/B/S Ameraucanas if they do not have the proper breeding to completely suppress it. I\'m not useing [except as an EE] a splash purchased as a chick due to his red bleed developed at puberty............ he\'s also too upright in both stance and tail set. His appearance has also raised questions in my mind about the other chicks that I purchased with him.............. but there are 4 pullets that just look too good to not use [plus this group of pullets are excellent layers, and some of very blue eggs]. Those that haven\'t already been eaten [LOL] are going to the EE pen.  

greeneggsandham:

--- Quote from: SteveH ---I\'m sure not a genetics expert nor well experienced in breeding Ameraucana. It has been my experience, though, that bleed will show more frequently [and therefore often first in a line of B/B/S] on the male splash of B/B/S Ameraucanas if they do not have the proper breeding to completely suppress it. I\'m not useing [except as an EE] a splash purchased as a chick due to his red bleed developed at puberty............ he\'s also too upright in both stance and tail set. His appearance has also raised questions in my mind about the other chicks that I purchased with him.............. but there are 4 pullets that just look too good to not use [plus this group of pullets are excellent layers, and some of very blue eggs]. Those that haven\'t already been eaten [LOL] are going to the EE pen.  
--- End quote ---


Forgive my ignorance.  Does that by chance mean the splash offspring of a blue x blue cross?

John:

--- Quote ---hackle and saddle leakage
--- End quote ---

Even if the pullets and cockerels are of the same genotype the males may show the silver or gold in thier hackles and the females won\'t.  Sometimes the cockerels won\'t show it until they are 6 months old or more.  That is why it is best not to breed from a black cockerel.  Wait until he is a cock.  Even if no silver/gold is seen in his hackle look closely on the top of his head for signs of it next to his comb.  If you see it, cull him too.  Be critical...breed from the best.
Blacks based on \"E\" (Extended) hide silver/gold the best.  If the birds that show it have black shanks my guess is they are E based, but if they have slate shanks they may be ER (birchen) and that doesn\'t hide silver/gold as well.  More genes are needed to take care of it.
Blues can be based on E, but the good ones are generally based on ER.  ER allows for the best lacing, but then it also allows for more \"leakage\" of silver/gold.  Note that the brown red and birchen varieties are also based on ER and they have lacing.
Historically many of us crossed blacks and blues, due to the advantage that you get both from them.  In my opinion that is not the best way to produce good blues because we were basing them on E.  Many of the blacks, blues and splashes are not pure for E either.  I\'m quite sure most are E/E, but that there are some E/ER split and some ER/ER birds out there and it is my opinion that the leaky ones are the E/ER and ER/ER birds.
The advantage of a black based on ER is that they have the contrasting slate legs, rather than black shanks.  The disadvantages I\'ve already mentioned.  Is is worth it?
Here again this is just my opinion, but I feel the best blacks will be E/E and the best blues will be ER/ER.  If so then they shouldn\'t be crossed.  The black and splash sports that are produced by ER/ER blues would be culls.  I never liked blues (or blue wheatens) just because they don\'t breed true and that was one reason I developed lavenders...a similar color that breeds true.  Yes, like every variety it has it\'s faults also.    
You can find a lot of this talked about on other topics here by doing some searches.    
PS...here are some quotes from http://www.edelras.nl/chickengenetics/mutations1.html

--- Quote ---Further research by Dr Okimoto (quote from Classroom @ The Coop: Blue & E/ or ER/, posted May 02, 2006) ......
Some of us speculated that Andalusian blue used ER instead of E because ER would be more amenable to secondary pattern genes like Pg. I recently tested some Andalusian Blues from McMurray. I had a mixed batch of chicks so I could only tell the gray ones as blues the blacks could have been something else. There were three gray chicks that produced gray chick feathers. Two were homozygous ER ER and the third was heterozygous E ER. My guess is that E probably causes the dark birds and that the show quality birds are probably ER.
--- End quote ---


--- Quote ---The following is another direct quote from Dr Okimito, first discussing the E and ER alleles, then eb & eWh (quote from The Classroom @ The Coop -Different Kinds of Black ):

Dr Ron Okimoto......\"At the molecular level these alleles seem to be related. Birchin was probably the first mutation. It has the same mutation that causes black fur in some mouse lines. The E allele probably came second in addition to the birchin mutation the E allele has a second mutation at the same position that causes black wool in sheep. So the E allele has a double whamy that produces more black than the birchin mutation by itself can.
--- End quote ---


--- Quote ---The E locus is important to learn with poultry genetics. The common E locus alleles are:

•E (Extended Black) –black/cream day-old chicks, adults predominantly black, but may have some pheomelanin (silver or gold) areas in hackles.
•ER (Birchen)- black/cream day-old chicks, adults predominantly black, but may have more pheomelanin (silver or gold) areas in hackles, wing bows, etc.
--- End quote ---

Note the difference between \"some\" and \"more\" in the above discriptions.

Guest:

--- Quote from: greeneggs&ham ---
--- Quote from: SteveH ---I\'m sure not a genetics expert nor well experienced in breeding Ameraucana. It has been my experience, though, that bleed will show more frequently [and therefore often first in a line of B/B/S] on the male splash of B/B/S Ameraucanas if they do not have the proper breeding to completely suppress it. I\'m not useing [except as an EE] a splash purchased as a chick due to his red bleed developed at puberty............ he\'s also too upright in both stance and tail set. His appearance has also raised questions in my mind about the other chicks that I purchased with him.............. but there are 4 pullets that just look too good to not use [plus this group of pullets are excellent layers, and some of very blue eggs]. Those that haven\'t already been eaten [LOL] are going to the EE pen.  
--- End quote ---


Forgive my ignorance.  Does that by chance mean the splash offspring of a blue x blue cross?
--- End quote ---

I used B/B/S to represent blue, black, and splash; it seems many of us newbies or casual breeders choose this variety. I was actually looking for whites for a project developing a larger type of blue/green egg laying bird more suitable for the table, but found the B/B/S chicks near by. [My F1s on this project are promising; being larger and meatier than an adult Ameraucana by the time they\'re 14 weeks]

I knew some blacks carry ER, that it often results in bleed, but did not know that some have intentionally bred for it on the theory it gets better defined blues until John explained.

greeneggsandham:
Thanks Steve.  It was so simple, yet I had blue x blue on my mind.

And thank you John for your imput.  That is some useful information.  A couple of  questions, if you don\'t mind, when you say E hides silver/gold best, does that mean you could have an E based bird that doesn\'t show silver/gold but could have it and pass it on?  And if you have an ER based bird that doesn\'t show silver/gold, you have a keeper? And I assume this applies to blues and splashes too?

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