Author Topic: Brown Red Ameraucana Hen  (Read 26750 times)

Guest

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Brown Red Ameraucana Hen
« on: December 27, 2005, 02:10:54 PM »
Does anyone have an extra? I was given an excellent Brown Red male by a friend the other day, yet I have no mate to place with it. This bird is a little bit smaller than I would like, but the tail carriage, legs, beak, comb and eyes are excellent and the feathers are almost to perfection. The bird does not have a beard due to being in with a flock of beard hungry hens, but it should grow back soon. Are there any Maryland breeders from whom I could acquire a hen? If not, I have plenty of shipping boxes that I can send out to get one from elsewhere. Youth/4H discount very much appreciated.
Here is the bird:




I also have many birds available for trades, including a number of Red Golden Pheasants all tested negative for pullorum and avian flu. I have some Red Pyle Ameraucana F2/F3 generation eggs at a rate of 1 or 2 a day as well.
(My Red Pyles have some comb/leg/egg issues still)

Guest

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Brown Red Ameraucana Hen
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2005, 02:33:53 PM »
There was also a lot of mud that day, hence the caky feet. The are actually a very nice slate color, not grey clay color.

John

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Brown Red Ameraucana Hen
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2005, 06:10:42 PM »
He is a wheaten.

Guest

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Brown Red Ameraucana Hen
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2005, 07:45:17 PM »
Well, if other breeds are anything to go by, he most certainly is not a wheaten. The hens that were in with him were most certainly not wheatens either, unless wheatens have gotten a lot darker recently.

Wheatens and Browns seem to be quite similar, but this birds ancestry indicates that he quite clearly did not originate from a wheaten flock.

A Light Brown Leghorn:

A Brown Red Modern:

OE Largefowl, Brown Red:

The ABC Sharing Place shows pictures of Wheaten Ameraucanas, which lack the darker insides of the lighter lower neck feathers of the brown reds.
http://groups.msn.com/ABCShareingPlace/wheaten.msnw

Guest

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Brown Red Ameraucana Hen
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2005, 07:46:50 PM »
Does the Ameraucana definition of Brown Red vary from that of Brown Red in other breeds?

John

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Brown Red Ameraucana Hen
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2005, 08:20:10 PM »
I\'m not saying he is a good wheaten.  The hackle and saddle striping shouldn\'t be there and may lead you to think he looks a bit like a brown red, but the wings would be all black if he were.  The red wing bay color means his pattern is closer to a wheaten, BB red, light brown, red pyle, etc.
Also, his legs do appear willow in the photo and it looks like a hint of yellow on his beak and that would go along with willow legs.
Please check out the APA Standard on page 196 and compare the patterns of the blue wheaten and brown red males.  The Ameraucana brown red description is the same as Modern Game.

Guest

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Brown Red Ameraucana Hen
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2005, 08:38:19 PM »
I understand your statement (I have never been very good with Red factor genetics) but the parents of this bird were not wheatens unless by accident a wheaten cock was paired with a Brown Red hen, for the hen was of the very dark black color with reddish hackles (like copper marans). The person who gave this bird to me did not wish to part with either of the parents.

It may be that their cock was not what they thought it to be. Seeing their hen and recieving what they called a Brown Red I assumed that it was indeed a Brown Red.
The only Red Factor color with which I am familiar is the Red Pyle. This cock could be useful in the creation of further Red Pyles if he is indeed a Brown Red x Wheaten.

In the futue I think I\'ll stick to my Silver factor birds, whose genetics and appearance I am far more familiar with.

Mike Gilbert

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Brown Red Ameraucana Hen
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2005, 08:41:15 PM »
John is correct.   Your bird is not a brown red.  Brown reds do not have red or brown color in the wing bay (exposed portion of secondaries when wing is folded).   He looks exactly like the poorly colored wheaten males (should not have striping in hackle) that I have seen hundreds of.   It is possible he could be a light brown, like the leghorn, but that is not a standard color.

Mike Gilbert

Guest

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Brown Red Ameraucana Hen
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2005, 08:56:31 PM »
I\'m going to assume then that his mother and father must have been erroneously bred and that he is a Wheaten crossed to a Brown Red. I will include him within my Red Pyles as a backup, for this coloration is ideal for breeding to dominant white for f1 Red Pyles. My F2 Red Pyles are in need of outside blood (I do not wish for an F3 inbred generation). Also, the Red Pyles resembled Red Shoulders more at this point, for the original outcross was a White Ameraucana cock on a Brown Red hen (deceased). The original offspring lacked the desired coloring in the lower wing. Added offspring from an alternative Wheaten/white cross has reversed this in most of the birds. Most of these colors came from breeds outside that of Ameraucana, mainly Leghorn and Minorca, both white eggers from which blue can readily be reestablished as the egg color.
Also viable points are that if this bird is a Brown Red/Wheaten cross, when bred to the Pyle hens which lack the coloration on the lower wing primaries, a percentage of offspring should be Brown Red. I do not plan on extensively breeding more varieties at his point though, so he will be put on white hens this spring rather than bred to the Red Shoulders.

Guest

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Brown Red Ameraucana Hen
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2005, 09:01:42 PM »
What you get when you cross Dominant white onto a black Ameraucana:

This cross is extremely useful in creating true to type Red Pyles. Since both White and Black Ameraucanas are readily available (and pyles are not) it prevent further outcrossing to non Ameraucanas from being necessary. This hen was given to a neighbor because of the twisting in her comb and the lighter horn at the end of the beak.


A Red Pyle Cock made from Dominant white crosses. The comb is less than ideal because of the combination of pea comb and single comb genes, which results in the extension of the middle peacomb ridge to the point where it flops to one side due to uneven weight. Single comb, a recessive, should not be hard to breed out. I have a few individuals with peacombs that are just getting in their plumage. They are august hatch.:  

bantamhill

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Brown Red Ameraucana Hen
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2005, 09:30:15 PM »
AmeraucanaMD,

I would suggest you go back and check with the orignial breeders concerning the cockerel\'s origins. If the bird does have the brown red blood then I would keep him. Do you have access to a black Ameraucana pullet or hen of excellent type? If you do I would put him with the black hen . . . if you do you will generate brown red\'s based on my experience with my black Ameraucana which come from Paul Smith and John Blehm.

I have been working on the self blue project with John and when I mated a self blue old english with a black large fowl Ameraucana I produced a excellent almost large fowl brown red pullet that I am pairing with a half brown red large fowl cockerel. If my suspicions are correct your cockerel may be essentially a Black Breasted Red which will throw some brown red if crossed with black of the correct background . . . it is a risk that may be worth it if the bird\'s breeding is really what you have been told it is.

Michael Muenks

Mike Gilbert

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Brown Red Ameraucana Hen
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2005, 09:37:13 PM »
I believe that if your rooster were a brown red / wheaten cross, he would not have the brown wing bay.   That is because, according to Seller\'s website, Birchen is dominant over both forms of wheaten (dominant and recessive).   If his mother was mostly black with red in the hackle, she was probably split at the e-locus for extended black and one of the wheatens.   This male did not inherit the gene for extended black from either parent.   My best guess is he is fully wheaten.   You could test this by crossing him with a wheaten female.   If all chicks are hatched white, off white, or white with a few dark spots on head and back, my guess is correct.   If any of the chicks have primarily black chick down, your bird could be split for birchen.   The combination of the birchen gene and the gold gene produce brown red color.  Good luck!   It is great to see someone your age into genetics.    If any of us can help please let us know.

Guest

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Brown Red Ameraucana Hen
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2005, 10:51:36 PM »
Thanks. I do have a hen that is black (I breed blacks, whites and I have 3 varieties which I am working with that are not standard) that I can use for a cross. I do not have any wheatens to cross to though.

There was a breeder named Eric in the area about 5 or so years ago when I first got the blacks. He was in Severna Park MD area but now I cannot find any info on him. Is he a registered Ameraucana breeder? If not, I would still like to find a wheaton hen. I am quite curious as to the genetic makeup of this bird.
It is getting quite late, so I will resume pursuing this further tommorow. I am too tired to keep up! I have several excellent links for Red Pyle and Red Shoulder (and Red in general) on a Longtail website which I would like some criticism of (as to viability of information).

Guest

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Brown Red Ameraucana Hen
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2005, 12:19:45 AM »
The hen that you have at the top that is a cross with Black and white as well as the Red pyle hetero males are exactly like the results of a cross of a Wheaten OEGB male on two White ( Dom White) OEGB females that I did some years ago. I hatched out 42 offspring from the cross 22 females and 20 males. 15 of the 22 females were the same color as the female that you have posted, some with more flecking some with less. The others were poor colored Brown Red looking with no lacing and dark caps. 16 of the 20 males were the hetro or smutty colored pyle looking males...lots of flecking in them, the other 4 were again poor colored Brown Red looking birds no lacing and dark caps. I found it interesting that while all parents were white legged the \"psedo brown reds\" all had slate legs....not real dark but slate nonetheless. One of the grey flecked females had outstanding type and won several \"splash\" OEGB classes that year. LOL..... I only kept one male for breeding the following year to put back on a Wheaton OEGB hen but only hatched three eggs out, all of which were poor colored Pyle males.
 A cross of a BB red male the next year on the same white females gave all hetero Red Pyles. Females with a little salmon on the breast but not near as smutty as the Wheaten cross and no psedo Brown Reds. I think that the Wheaten color cross has something to do with the birds having the grey flecked look... JMHO. Have a great day all.

Thurman.

Guest

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Brown Red Ameraucana Hen
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2005, 12:24:55 AM »
The leg color on the male of the first post looks willow to me as well.....And the wing color comfirms what is being said, as it is not crow winged......therefore not a brown red. Have a good day. Thurman.