The Official Forum of the Ameraucana Breeders Club > Breeding
Lavender splits
John:
--- Quote ---How common is it for the Blacks in the general population not to be E/E?
--- End quote ---
Clare, Because it is easier to get birds that are all black with E/E many of us breed for that, but some breed for ER/ER along with the required melanizers to achieve black birds.
Both E and ER enhance black shank color, but I believe with ER you can still get the preferred slate shack color while E produces black shanks.
A problem arises when fanciers buy and cross black Ameraucana LF from two lines...one E based and the other ER. They have a greater chance of producing cockerels showing silver/gold.
Now if they are also crossing both types of blacks with lavender then they are perpetuating a problem. Although there is a shank color benefit to ER/ER based black birds, it is best to only base lavender on E/E. E based lavender birds have slate shanks (lavender dilutes the black).
I\'ve heard a lot in the last few years about \"lavender splits\", but just as all blacks aren\'t the same neither are these splits and lavenders that come from them.
I told Jess in another topic that outcrossing LF wheatens from the sources he mentioned shouldn\'t be a problem, but be careful when outcrossing blacks, lavenders and some others.
Here is a bit more on the subject...
http://www.edelras.nl/chickengenetics/mutations1.html
--- Quote ---Ml (Melanotic) is sex influenced, autosomal incompletely dominant gene. This means that heterozygote hens with only one dose of the black enhancer (Ml/ml+) show very little pheomelanin (gold or silver) on ER (birchen) base (ie acts like a dominant gene). Whereas, heterozygote roosters with only one dose of Ml (Ml/ml+) show more gold on the hackles, wing bows, etc, when ER (i.e, acts like an incompletely dominant gene). Ml homozygous (Ml/Ml) & on its own doesn\'t cover all pheomelanin areas on e+ & ER male birds (although covers a lot), & doesn\'t cover salmon areas of e+ (eg, as in Brassy Backs) & eWh hens. Therefore, other eumelanin enhancers are needed to change the gold/silver areas to black (eumelanin).
--- End quote ---
dak:
Thanks John and Mike.
If I am comprehending this correctly then the Split and Lav sisters of these boys showing leakage could carry it to the next generation even if they aren\'t exhibiting it.
Back to the drawing board.....
HarryS:
Dak,
Clare,
Thanks for posting that picture of your lavender bird on BYC with the peepers on. I had to use them this year also since I am not allowing my birds to free range till I get the last fox in the area. Did you put them on by yourself?
Harry
dak:
Hi Harry,
Yes, I can trap the bird between my legs or under my arm and grab the head with my lt. hand and apply with my rt. hand. The tool to spread them open is necessary.
That said, my 6 y/o delights in helping me apply these.
They will leave a dent in the front of the comb, but this resolves with time.
I don't have a multitude of conditioning cages, so I can grow juveniles up together and still show them in the fall.
I am currently pondering my choices for making a second round of splits this year. In 2011 I used a Lav/SB cockerel over Black hens. I am going to try it the reverse way this time, Black cockerel over Lav/SB pullets. 2014 will be the laborous process of hatching Split x Split again in sufficient quantities to have enough to cull from.
vanalpaca:
John,
"A problem arises when fanciers buy and cross black Ameraucana LF from two lines...one E based and the other ER. They have a greater chance of producing cockerels showing silver/gold."
I have blacks from Paul, but also some of my blacks are from an Indiana breeder that had Paul/Ribbeck/Meredith lines, brought in Morrow lines in 2010 and Paul again in 2011. I got chicks from her in 2012 along with chicks from Paul directly. I am hoping for some blacks from you as well with this year's order.
So where will I be getting problems with the crosses? Would pauls x john's blacks be ok and should I be careful with the birds from the Indiana breeder as those sound like a wide variety of lines and I might be getting more silver/gold issues?
I'm just dealing with the black birds at this point and all of Pauls stock directly from him are toe punched so this spring is the time to figure this out and get the birds set up right.
Thank you and you can reply here or pm me. Bonnie
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