Feathers between toes

[Mike Gilbert]

Steve, I\'m right with you when it comes to feathers on the legs.   I would not breed from one with feathers along the shanks either, nor would I show it.   But fuzz between the toes (stubs) is another matter in my mind.  Sometimes they are so tiny you almost need a magnifying glass to see them.
I\'m off to an ABC meet at Portage, Wisconsin, today, so won\'t be back on here for awhile.   Have a good and a blessed day!

[Guest]

Have a safe trip and best wishes at the show Mike.

[John]

Sometimes they are so tiny you almost need a magnifying glass to see them.

Yes, and that is why you\'ll see \"stubs\" written on coop cards at shows.  Exhibitors bring thier best birds and sometimes don\'t even notice any stubs, but a judge will with bird in hand under very close observation.  My memory isn\'t great, but I think I found out about stubs because they were on a bird I showed many years ago and a judge found them.  
I think this is a very good topic and appreciate the input.   None of us would encourage anyone to do anything they feel is unsafe, unethical or immoral, but with more information and background on a subject our views may change.
 

[dixieland]

I think this is a very good topic and appreciate the input.   None of us would encourage anyone to do anything they feel is unsafe, unethical or immoral, but with more information and background on a subject our views may change.
 

 
I concur 100%,  and could not have said that with the eloquence that John did.

[Beth C]

This is a great topic, especially for those of us new to showing birds. No matter what animal you\'re showing, there will always be debate over where the line is. My criteria has always been 1) does it harm the animal and 2) does it give me an unfair advantage. If a practice is widely accepted by both judges and exhibitors, then it does not give me an unfair advantage. But poultry shows are new turf, so I\'m glad to have experienced exhibitors who can help define \"widely accepted.\" I would love to see this discussion continue (especially with fall shows approaching) and expand on what is expected (i.e. you\'re going to look silly if you don\'t), accepted, controversial, and unacceptable.

[Guest]

I questioned a judge about this subject over the weekend, and he said pulling any feather or stub is faking................ and also that a bit of down between the toes is easily removed by rubbing a bit of oil on it so plucking isn\'t even neceessary.  :p

He said he and many judges are hesitent to call such a serious offence; not only is that bird to be DQed, but every bird the exhibitor entered has to be DQed also.

[John]

questioned a judge

Steve,
As someone posted earlier, it would be nice to hear comments from Judges.  We have ABC members that are judges, but they seldom (if ever) post on the forum and maybe wouldn\'t want to comment publicly.
The letter of the law in the APA standard appears clear, but from all the research I\'ve done removing stubs is an accepted practice that is as old as the written standard.
http://books.google.com/books?id=v8BJAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA5-PA50&lpg=RA5-PA50&dq=removing+stubs+from+exibition+chickens&source=bl&ots=HOFAgxxGiY&sig=D5-8VWhF3I9nweQTfXT7oG8SnM8&hl=en&ei=BfaATvWoJciCsgLhzoT3Dg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false
\"Conditioning and Faking Different\" is one heading from an old article.  The author says \"removing stubs on the shanks and filling them with beeswax\" is faking, but also claims...

There is a certain amount of conditioning that can be done that is considered proper and legitimate such as washing white birds with soap and water and fluffing the feathers on the saddle, etc., pulling irregular penciled, laced, barred or spangled feathers, removing off-colored feathers and otherwise conditioning a bird.

http://books.google.com/books?id=8-1EAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA2086&lpg=PA2086&dq=removing+stubs+from+exibition+chickens&source=bl&ots=9NYJY_o95D&sig=BbhsgWiuakDuPA1TbT8-MS7Jcoc&hl=en&ei=3feATuvdIIuOsALSyaCeDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
In an article from 1916 entitled \"Fitting Birds for Show\" the author says...

The amount of work that a prospective exhibitor will do in removing defective feathers and making changes in the shape of the comb, and so on, depends upon his definition of faking.  Illegitimate practices, such as removing feathers from the shanks and plugging up the holes, performing surgical operations and on the combs, and dyeing feathers, are one class; while debatable operations, like removing stubs and down from the toes, washing white birds in weak chemical solutions, and removing discolored feathers from among the body feathers, are another class.  Most of these practices have become rather common, and faking is acknowledged only upon discovery.

I know these are very old articles, but they show removing stubs from between the toes isn\'t anything new and is an accepted practice by experienced exhibitors.  I doubt that it is as common today as it was a century ago because most exhibition strains/lines are purer today.
I feed carrots to my birds in the fall, because they are cheap and available in 50# bags as deer bait at the gas stations.  Anyway, I\'m hoping they make the shanks of my yellow shanked chickens more yellow before show time.  I don\'t see anything wrong with it, but some might.  Some things are going to remain \"debatable\" and I respect your position.  

[NGaAmeraucana]

I feed carrots to my birds in the fall, because they are cheap and available in 50# bags as deer bait at the gas stations.  Anyway, I\'m hoping they make the shanks of my yellow shanked chickens more yellow before show time.  I don\'t see anything wrong with it, but some might.  Some things are going to remain \"debatable\" and I respect your position.  

I wouldn\'t see anything wrong with this.  Color by feed is a natural occurance in wild birds is it not?  Flamingos come to mind.

How common are stubs?  I\'ve never seen it on any of my ameraucana chicks.  I did have one PR chick with them.

[Beth C]

I\'ve heard about the carrots - is that only supposed to help w/skin color or would it affect plumage (say on a buff)? And would it give a white-skinned bird a yellow tinge?

Also, another conditioning question: due to limited space my young birds are outdoors most of the time. I didn\'t realize just how sun bleached they were until I looked at them side by side with the 4 that hatched under a broody and were raised indoors. I\'m guessing there\'s not much I can do besides bring them in and wait for them to molt?

[Guest]

The letter of the law in the APA standard appears clear, but from all the research I\'ve done removing stubs is an accepted practice that is as old as the written standard.

JMO, if the letter of the law appears clear, there is nothing to debate. History has long ago prooven that rules and laws do not make immoral people moral. Saying other\'s are breaking the rules does not make it right, nor the rule wrong. I doubt that anyone here will state that plucking a feather was not a deliberate attempt to decieve the judge, though some might not want to be honest about it even to themselves.

I feed carrots to my birds in the fall, because they are cheap and available in 50# bags as deer bait at the gas stations.  Anyway, I\'m hoping they make the shanks of my yellow shanked chickens more yellow before show time.  I don\'t see anything wrong with it, but some might.

Feather plucking is clearly written as a very serious breach of acceptable \"preperation\" to hide flaws that woud lower a bird\'s placeing or even disqualify it from the show. Improoving a bird\'s diet is simply not comparable. I really don\'t know if carrots can deepen yellow pigment or not; though free ranging certainly does on my Cornish. I can\'t free range, and the only birds of my recently purchased Cornish with shanks even close to the color they had when I got them are those in the movable growing pens.  

[Tailfeathers]

Hi Folks,

It\'s been awhile and I\'m perusing the various threads to see what I\'ve missed out on.  This is a great thread!  Very thought provoking.

I must admit that several years ago I did show a Welsummer that had a few very small stubs in between her toes.  This was from hatchery stock and I\'ve since gotten rid of all my hatchery stock so I\'ve not encountered the problem again.  I\'m trying to recall and I\'m not sure but I think I may have gotten a few chicks the first year that were feather-legged.  Again, I seem to have that problem fixed because I haven\'t had any in several years now.

I will have to give this topic some more thought.  I see good points on both sides.  My first inclination without more thought is to say that I think there is a substantial difference between a \"feather-legged\" bird and \"stubs\".  Removing a line of feathers down the side of a leg seems to me to be a more serious attempt to fake or decieve whereas removing a few small stubs between the toes seems to me to be more of a \"conditioning\" effort.  

Again, just my initial thoughts but I have to ask myself, \"Would you use this bird as a breeder?\"  The answer for me is absolutely not in the case of a feather-legged bird.  I don\'t care how good it is otherwise.  Whereas I might use a bird with stubs if it had a significant trait or two that I was working on.

But should I show the bird?  I must admit I will have to give that some prayerful consideration now.  

As I close I just wanted to say how grateful I am to read on here that I have a couple of Brothers in the Family that I didn\'t know before.  I look forward to getting to know you better on here and spending at least some time in all Eternity talking about our chickens!

God Bless,

[Russ]

If pulling/plucking feathers is a dq. Why would they suggest to pull stray feathers in comb area, at a 4-H workshop I attended this past summer, as part of conditioning your bird? Is it like John say\'s been a practice that goes way back and most people accept it. I am very new at showing this actually was my kid\'s first year. I truly enjoy this topic, just wondering now if our first show was we faking or conditioning. Man the things that make you go HHMMMM. Well if nothing else I got a standard of perfection coming my way. Seems I better do some more research, I would hate to teach my children something to find out later it was all wrong Ahhhh. Look forward to what the expert\'s say God Bless

[Guest]

If pulling/plucking feathers is a dq. Why would they suggest to pull stray feathers in comb area, at a 4-H workshop I attended this past summer, as part of conditioning your bird? Is it like John say\'s been a practice that goes way back and most people accept it. I am very new at showing this actually was my kid\'s first year. I truly enjoy this topic, just wondering now if our first show was we faking or conditioning. Man the things that make you go HHMMMM. Well if nothing else I got a standard of perfection coming my way. Seems I better do some more research, I would hate to teach my children something to find out later it was all wrong Ahhhh. Look forward to what the expert\'s say God Bless

I\'m not an expert, have never even entered a bird in a show.
My thinking is that there is no way to know why a feather was plucked; was it simply because it was damaged or unsightly,  or was it off colored to the variety or what? Since there\'s no way the judge can determine the intent of the groomer, I can\'t see how the APA rules can be changed to allow any plucking to be practised. Now if an exhibitor has plucked stubs from a clean legged breed\'s legs or feet the intent is clear................... but it\'s such a serious accusation with subsequent penalties that a judge needs unmistakable evidence to make the charge. This may even lead a judge to feel he can ignore the evidence of plucking entirely, and exhibitors to feel safe from being DQed for faking.














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