Advise concerning a new ameraucana breed.

[Mike Gilbert]

Suz,
Blue silver (what I have in L.F. Am\'s) and silver blue are two different colors.    They are both described in Bantam Standard.   Blue silver is essentially the silver pattern we currently have with the dominant BL gene added, which dilutes the black pigment so that it looks bluish grey.  Silver blue, on the other hand, is like lemon blue except the birds are pure for the dominant S gene.    Brown reds are pure for \"s\" (gold) and lack the BL gene.   Take a brown red, add BL(one copy, and add \"s\" (two copies in males - S and/or s are on the sex link chromosome) and you would have a silver blue.   So as you can see brown red, lemon blue, blue silver, and birchen are all somewhat similar in genotype.

Mike G.

[Guest]

I know about the leg color issues. I also am aware of the Columbian gene influence upon allowing pigment in the legs. In crosses among certain fowl I have had unexpected results in leg color. I cannot find any breeds with both barred and Columbian restrictions...

What about autosomal barring? I looked on ideal hatchery\'s page just to see if there were any barred breeds with blue legs. Campines fit this description. Is there a reason that an autosomal barred bird could not be used? I can pick up a few somewhere off of BYC or Poultry Egg Swappers or PYA in the spring. Also, Sicilian Buttercups have the same color variety and I know of at least two very active breeders with excess birds. Both are white egg layers and one has a simple single comb, which is easy to deal with. Campines have a hen feathering modifyer though so some other breed may be better.

I figured the breeders directory would have local members in it but I won\'t recieve it until some weeks after tommorow when I send my form in. I know of one breeder from whom I got my start in these fowl but I suspect he may have moved or no longer breeds the birds. I was very impressed with his extensive waterfowl and exotic collections. He was up in Severna Park or Pasadena.

[Guest]

AmeraucanaMD,

What about autosomal barring?

Campines are ER/ER, co+/co+, Db/Db, ml+/ml+, Pg/Pg, W+/W+, id+/id+.  No problem with shank and feet color but the epidermis could be a bit darker because of the ER gene. The birchen gene can add melanin to the epidermal tissues.  A person can get rid of the henny feathering (Hf) without a problem. But there is a problem with gene linkage. W/w+, O/o+, P/p+, Db/db+ and Pg/pg+ are all linked on the same chromosome ( group lll chromosome #1). The white skin should not be a problem because  both have white skin. The O and P genes are linked very closely , 4 map units, and that is a good thing.  The problem does appear in that the db+ gene is linked to the O and P genes by 33 map units while the pg+ is linked to the  O and P genes  by 53 map units. The O and P loci are found on the short arm while the Db and Pg loci are found on the long arm of the chromosome.

This linkage will impact the independent assortment of the Db/db and the Pg/pg+ in the F1 heterozygotes during sperm or egg formation. I figure to get a bird that is autosomal barred ( Db/Db, Pg/Pg)  and P/P and O/O  genotypes in the F2 the probabilities are approximately 1 chance in 150.  
Of couse that is assuming the Db and Pg cross over while linked together.

I cannot find any breeds with both barred and Columbian restrictions...

The barred rock and the delaware are two barred birds that carry sex linked barring and the columbian gene. The extended black gene is epistatic to the columbian gene therefore the bird has a black body with silver barring. In the case of the delaware, the black in its body is based upon eb and black intensifiers therefore the black is essentially removed from the body allowing the silver gene to color the body. Take a look at the tail feathers and hackles of a delaware-they are barred.

Rooster

[Guest]

The fact is that even though the chances are remote it is still possible to get a barred slate shanked fowl. It would take awhile, but it would be possible. I may just pick up a hen for fun somewhere. Doubtless someone can ship some eggs come spring. I just like to play with these things. I hatch thousands of eggs in a year with three incubators running from February to December of each year nonstop (except for cleaning). Even with 1/150 luck sometimes runs on your side.
When playing with color I never expect for success in the F2! I have F8 cuckoo silkies and they aren\'t even correct yet!


Not all Delawares are barred. (Delawares are a breed that really needs to be improved. I just have them for fun but they certainly vary) I have two Delaware hens and one Barred rock hen. They all have white legs and pass it onto their offspring as well. I have ghost barreds from the barred rock. Same yellow legs.

[Guest]

Thanks for your comments.

Rooster

[Guest]

Thanks for yours.

I sent in my club fees this morning!

[Mike Gilbert]

Either John B is the only one paying attention or else nobody else wants to poke fun at me.   Suz, in my previous message, second to last sentence, the result would be lemon blue, not silver blue.   To get silver blue you would start with brown red, add the dominant BL gene, and the large S (dominant sex linked silver).   Sorry, sometimes the keyboard gets ahead of the brain.

Mike G.

[Suz]

Is it possible to get a photo of each of these varieties posted?

Here\'s a picture of one of my self-blue d\'Anvers.  The lavender Ameraucanas will be this color.


I have been unable to locate even a picture of another breed in the lavender wheaten variety, but as soon as I get one of my own, I will post it!  

Susie

[bantamhill]

Rooster,

I realized I had never answered your original question so I spent some quality time with the Bantam Standard last night looking at plumage colors and the following were attactive to me:

gold barred
spangled
speckled
black tailed red
millie fluer and it\'s derivatives

Bantam

[grisaboy]

There is an ad that I sometimes see in the Poultry Press for Silver Spangled Araucanas.  But I don\'t think they are the APA standard Araucana, but more like Easter Eggers.  Might give you a boost in the right direction if someone was going to work with the Spangled colors.

Curtis

[Guest]

Curtis,

Thanks for the information. I am working on a breeding project with appenzeller spitzhauben and they have some beautiful spangling. They are genetically eb/eb (black), S/S, Db/Db, Ml/Ml and Pg/Pg. The Db gene removes most of the black from the body feathers and interacts with the Pg gene and Ml gene to form a spangle on the end of the feather. Some of my easter eggers already carry Pg and Db and Ml. They have some patterns already. This should help decrease my odds of getting a good pattern. I do not have any silver birds and it would be better if I did have them.

Is the poultry press an online publication or is it a paper pulication?

Rooster

[Mike Gilbert]

Rooster,
Poultry Press is a monthly paper publication, but they do have a website.   You can find it at: www.poultrypress.com .  The January issue ran 68 pages.   I\'m going to take a wild guess and say your first name is Dan.   Am I correct?

Mike Gilbert

[John]

Speaking of the Poultry Press...did you notice there are two photos of Susie on page 28 and she is sporting an ABC t-shirt!

[Guest]

Mike,

No, my name is not Dan. Mike from Bantam Hill knows who I am. I have corresponded with him in the past.

Rooster

[Guest]

has anyone ever tried to work on the quail color variety that comes from the Ideal Hatchery?  I got some 2 years ago, easter eggers of course, and ended up with a rooster in my batch of 4 \'all pullets\'.  they are beautiful birds with big thick muffs and beards, pea combs... and legs green as tree leaves.  but I let one of the hens brood out a few eggs, and got 7 babies that were 100% true in color- including the legs.  my last cockerel from that batch last year produced 5 offspring on a white Ameraucana pullet a couple of months ago.  again they are 100% true to color, including the green legs.  

okay, the point of all this is, does anyone out there have any interest in working on a Quail variety?  these birds of mine seem on the reddish side, less brown than the quail D\'Anvers we have. body type needs work, but they have better beards and muffs than any of my \'standardbred\' Ameraucana.  they are also much pleasanter in temperament than my bantam blues.  

just for my amusement, what color crosses can I use to try to introduce slate legs/ white skin?  I have 2 breeding pens of LF buffs right now- is this something that works with the quail pattern?  since a very big defining point of being Ameraucana is \'color breeds true at least 50% of the time\', it seems like a color that seems to stick pretty well, like these easter eggers of mine, might have some hope if the leg color can be corrected.

I\'m just to the point where my little half acre is so overcrowded with goats, horses, turkey pens, and my nephew\'s 9 varieties of OEGB, plus my few chickens, that I am trying to limit how many more pens I have to put up out there.  for this reason I am not going to try the lemon blue Ameraucana at this time.  but I already have the quail EE\'s.  
any suggestions?