Crossing Buff to Wheaten to improve Buff

[Guest]

We wanted to improve the line of Buffs we have by breeding back to Wheaten.  We decided to only keep one Wheaten and one Blue Wheaten roo for our Wheaten breeding program.  Our striking Wheaten roo was killed a month ago.  If I used the Blue Wheaten roo to make Buff Splits, will that throw a wrench in the color results of my splits and set that program back?  

We are trying to work with what we have vs integrating a new roo into the mix this year.

[jerryse]

Some breeds are said to carry blue in the buff.It should not cause a problem.However you could weed out the ones carrying blue if you wish.50% of the chicks will carry blue and it should be visable in the tail of both sexes as they mature.

[Guest]

Which would require a little more time before culling...  I\'ll mull it over a bit and see if the program is worth it for us.  From what I see, there doesn\'t seem to be as much interest in the Buff Ams.  I would like to know how other Ameraucana breeders are doing with their Buff lines?    

[faith valley]

This last year we crossed our wheaten into our buff to improve hatchibility and viability.  We kept 6 females and 4 males to work with for this 2012 season.  The 1/2 buff, 1/2 wheaten youngsters finished out nicely- very little black in the tails.

We are just now setting eggs from these crossed youngsters... Time will tell how this first batch of chicks will look; they are due to hatch on the 5th.

[Jean]

The common issues I have seen in the buff lines are the light legs, uneven color and egg color issues.

It probably won\'t help the leg issues to breed to wheaten.  And the uneven shades of buff won\'t be helped either by breeding to wheaten.

The only advantage I see is maybe improving the egg color.

I have already managed to get about 1/2 of my gals laying a nicer egg by using a male I purchased that I know hatched from a very blue egg.

I think the buff color is one of the hardest to work with.  From what I understand, uneven color is common in all birds of buff plumage and it takes years of work to get that color \"mastered\" in your flock.

[Mike Gilbert]

I hatched buff bantams this year that were 1/4 wheaten.  Michael Muenks has two of the pullets, and John got a third one; Bob Walchak has two of them also.   There was a tiny amount of black in the main tail of three of the five, but uneven buff color was not really an issue.  Of course I started with an even colored buff to begin with.  Uneven color is what I would describe as mottled looking, with lighter feathers intermingled with darker feathers in the same sections of the plumage.   I don\'t mean the varied shades found in different sections of the male plumage, as that is a different issue.

[Guest]

Thank you for sharing your experiences.  I bought some buffs from John a few years back, grew them out and sold a hen only now I regret selling (pictured here).  She had the best blue legs.  Had I thought at the time I would still be interested in breeding buffs, I would never have given her up.  Ce la vie.

I didn\'t even think of leg color issues with breeding Buffs to Wheaten...was so focused on egg and plumage color/improvement.  I\'m curious if John is still getting nice blue legs in some of his LF buffs?  If so, put me on your waiting list John!  

Jean, if breeding for leg color is going to be a nightmare, what is suggested to help improve the buff line?  

Mike...how are the bantam buff\'s leg color in your flock?

Thanks for all input!  

Meagan

[Mike Gilbert]

I got buff large fowl chicks from John last spring.  Leg color was not an issue with them.  One of the pullets took champion AOSB at a Wisconsin show in early October.   Light leg color was a problem in my buff bantams this year, but the wheaten cross was not the cause of that.  John\'s bantam buffs have excellent leg color.  

[John]

When I first started reading this topic I thought it pertained to bantams, but now see both LF and bantam buffs are mentioned.
The bantams have the best pea combs in the world!  The combs on the LF are getting much better.
Overall both have good type and reasonable size.
Mike and I were able to get dark shanks on the bantams way back when, so they shouldn\'t be a problem.    
With the LF I haven\'t worked at getting the shanks dark.  I know the genes are there to work with and the shanks are blue to slate on all my birds.  Shank color and egg color have taken a back seat to other traits that I have concentrated on more.  It\'s that building the barn, before you paint it idea and we\'ve seen a lot of improvement in LF buffs over the past few years.  
Look for day-old chicks with even buff down all over...all down, even on top of thier heads should be buff.  Toe punch those chicks and see if they grow into the best colored birds.  Cull any buff chick that in hatched with dark legs.  They should start out like the chicks in the photo and thier shanks will darken with time.

As I read my new APA Standard I noticed the shank color of buffs is to be \"Slate\".  I\'ve already given away my old Standard...didn\'t it say something like \"blue to slate\" before?
Were some things changed?

[Guest]

I got buff large fowl chicks from John last spring.  Leg color was not an issue with them. One of the pullets took champion AOSB at a Wisconsin show in early October.   Light leg color was a problem in my buff bantams this year, but the wheaten cross was not the cause of that.  John\'s bantam buffs have excellent leg color.  

That\'s great Mike!  Congrats!  I have to admit, the Buffs I kept have light legs... :thinking:  I may just order another round of LF Buffs from John to help this program become a success vs. just working with what I have.  

[Guest]

When I first started reading this topic I thought it pertained to bantams, but now see both LF and bantam buffs are mentioned.
The bantams have the best pea combs in the world!  The combs on the LF are getting much better.
Overall both have good type and reasonable size.
Mike and I were able to get dark shanks on the bantams way back when, so they shouldn\'t be a problem.    
With the LF I haven\'t worked at getting the shanks dark.  I know the genes are there to work with and the shanks are blue to slate on all my birds.  Shank color and egg color have taken a back seat to other traits that I have concentrated on more.  It\'s that building the barn, before you paint it idea and we\'ve seen a lot of improvement in LF buffs over the past few years.  
Look for day-old chicks with even buff down all over...all down, even on top of thier heads should be buff.  Toe punch those chicks and see if they grow into the best colored birds.  Cull any buff chick that in hatched with dark legs.  They should start out like the chicks in the photo and thier shanks will darken with time.
As I read my new APA Standard I noticed the shank color of buffs is to be \"Slate\".  I\'ve already given away my old Standard...didn\'t it say something like \"blue to slate\" before?
Were some things changed?

I have been partial to the blue legs on the Buff... bummer!  I need to purchase a new SOP.  

I will take your advice in culling the buff chicks with dark legs.  Could you tell me what the reason is behind doing this?

[Mike Gilbert]

I see nothing wrong with blue slate legs.  When they get so pale they look almost white, then we have a problem.   If you don\'t see me posting here for awhile or not responding to questions, I\'m not ignoring you.  Saturday is opening day of whitetail hunting here, with relatives coming in to hunt, and the ladies will help Mary make lefse, so things are going to be busy here for awhile.  If I bag the 30 point buck I\'ll be sure to post a photo, but don\'t hold your breath.

[John]

the reason is behind doing this?

http://www.edelras.nl/chickengenetics/mutations1.html

The E locus alleles produce the base primary colour/patterns to which varieties are build upon.

Note: There is a color variety called wheaten and an E locus gene called wheaten (eWh).  The two are not the same, but yes the wheaten and buff varieties are based on eWh.  

Buff Ameraucanas should be \"wheaten\" (eWh) based and dermal shank color is not expressed in day-old eWh based chicks.  That is why day-old wheaten and buff Ameraucanas with the proper genotype won\'t have dark shanks/legs.  As they mature the shanks will darken.  

Day-old chicks showing dark shanks aren\'t pure for eWh and so you wouldn\'t want to raise them up and breed from them.

If you are trying to breed buffs based on \"brown\" (eb) then ignore all this.

[jerryse]

Wheaten x buff has always been the go to cross.I would like to offer another choice that has not been done much.White hens with a buff rooster works also.Red/gold being sex linked the pullets will be buff more or less.Take the pullets back to a buff rooster and save the best buff.You will be surprised how good some of the second generation are.You may get some black and buff pullets in the first generation but use them anyway.The second generation will restore the genes that make them buff.I can send pics of this cross in bantam if you like.I have a terrible time posting pics on the forum but do ok in emails.   jerrysegler@yahoo.com