Author Topic: Single & Double Muffs/Beards  (Read 5302 times)

Tailfeathers

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Single & Double Muffs/Beards
« on: May 23, 2013, 05:31:04 AM »
I've heard and read about "single copy" beard and muff genes.  I know I've got some birds with single copy beards/muffs because the difference between them and others is noticeable and I've had a couple of clean-faced birds pop up this past year.

I have a Splash Wheaten Cockerel that is pretty nice but has a sparse beard and muffs.  I had a SW pullet (my only one) that was clean-faced and I think his sister.  Unfortunately, I can't verify that because all the chicks I had in the incubator during the time I was forced out of the home didn't get toe-punched.  But those two are another reason I'm sure I've got the single-copy gene.  I have mostly Wheatens.  One Cock and several pullets and hens.  Only two BW hens and no pullets and no males.

So, here's my question for you genetic experts (Mike, you listening?):  If I breed my SW Cockerel with the single copy to my W gals that only have one copy, will I wind up with any dual copy birds or will they all be either single copy or clean-faced?

Obviously, I know I wouldn't want to breed him to any double copy birds because then I'd wind up with a bunch more single copy birds, right?   I'm just trying to figure out if I can use him and get more BW's that are also double copy beard/muff birds.

Hope this makes sense.

God Bless,


Mike Gilbert

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Re: Single & Double Muffs/Beards
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2013, 09:07:11 AM »
Royce, the muff and beard trait (sylmbolized Mb) manifests from a single dominant gene.   If you mate hetero's (carry one copy of Mb) the expected result is 25% with full muffs & beard, 25% clean faced, and 50% hetero's.    If you mate your hetero splash male with your wheaten hens that have full muffs & beard, the expected result is 50% heteros and 50% with full muffs and beard.   I like the odds of the second mating a lot better, don't you?   If you are not sure about some of your hens the splash rooster could be useful to determine their Mb genetics if you keep track of which chicks came from which hens.   If you get ANY clean faced chicks you know both their parents were hetero's.

Tailfeathers

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Re: Single & Double Muffs/Beards
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2013, 07:44:16 AM »
THANK YOU MIKE!!!!!  That was soooooooooo helpful. I had no idea that the muffs and beard manifested from a single gene. That is good news!  At least I'm only working with one gene instead of two.

I do like the odds better by mating the SW cockerel to full muff/beard birds.  (I assume this would be homozygous for Mb?)  And I will do so now.  I may go ahead and breed the SW to others IF they are exceptional in other ways.  Obviously, I'll get some clean-faced birds and hetero too but maybe I can work with the hetero's.  I do keep track of which chicks came from which hens but I have bred full blood sisters to one male in the past.  In this case, I will have to probably do some single mating instead.

Now, I don't know how much time you want to spend on this topic or how detailed you want to be but can you explain a bit more for me and others how the "single copy" and "double copy" work with the Mb?  I understand heterozygous and homozygous such as PP/rr versus Pp/Rr with combs.  But, for example, is it always Mb or is it also mB?  And is it sex-linked?  Do the mothers pass the gene down to both sons and daughters?  If homo is there two Mb genes carried by each parent and if hetero then only one Mb and the other allele is blank?

Oh, and before I forget, you said if I'm not sure about some of my hens the SW would be useful in determining their Mb genetics.  I understand that.  But isn't it easy to tell the difference between the full muffs/beard and those that don't have it?  I ask because some of my birds have muffs/beards that are noticeably thicker and bigger than others.

That's it for now.  It's 0445 and I'm heading to bed now.  Was heading that way and remembered I wanted to see if I had an answer yet.  Thanks again!

God Bless,

Mike Gilbert

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Re: Single & Double Muffs/Beards
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2013, 12:47:17 PM »
THANK YOU MIKE!!!!!  I do like the odds better by mating the SW cockerel to full muff/beard birds.  (I assume this would be homozygous for Mb?) Yes, symbolized MbMb And I will do so now.  I may go ahead and breed the SW to others IF they are exceptional in other ways.  Obviously, I'll get some clean-faced birds and hetero too but maybe I can work with the hetero's. If the splash rooster is indeed MbMb, you will get no clean faced chicks from him, only more MbMb and MbmbNow, I don't know how much time you want to spend on this topic or how detailed you want to be but can you explain a bit more for me and others how the "single copy" and "double copy" work with the Mb?  I understand heterozygous and homozygous such as PP/rr versus Pp/Rr with combs.  But, for example, is it always Mb or is it also mB? Mb is the symbol for muffs and beards, a single gene, but when it is inherited from both parents it has two copies, MbMb.  And is it sex-linked? No Do the mothers pass the gene down to both sons and daughters? Yes, always if the mother is MbMb, but half the time if they are Mbmb If homo is there two Mb genes carried by each parent and if hetero then only one Mb and the other allele is blank?yes, the latter condition would be symbolized Mbmb

Oh, and before I forget, you said if I'm not sure about some of my hens the SW would be useful in determining their Mb genetics.  I understand that.  But isn't it easy to tell the difference between the full muffs/beard and those that don't have it?  I ask because some of my birds have muffs/beards that are noticeably thicker and bigger than others.Then you can probably predict it.  I have had some that were obvious and others not obvious at all.   Same thing with pea combs.  Sorry I took so long to respond - didn't have time the first time I read it, and then forgot.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2013, 12:49:40 PM by Mike Gilbert »

Tailfeathers

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Re: Single & Double Muffs/Beards
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2013, 05:16:06 AM »
Mike, what can I say but "THANKS" again!  That was terrific the way you laid it all out. Even a numbskull like me can understand that.  And now I know that the muffs & beards are connected and a single gene so one less thing to worry about!  Don't have to deal with the potential for mB!

I will be VERY surprised if my SW cockerel is not Mbmb because he has a pretty sparse beard and muffs.  If any surprises come, it would be one of the "fuller" muff/beard birds being hetero.  I'm actually pretty excited by this news.  Now I get to breed my first SW and get more BWs.  Hopefully I'll get a nice replacement BW cockerel.  Thank you, thank you, thank you!

As for not getting back to me and forgetting about it, some thoughts about age come to mind and.... "Uh, what were we talking about again?"   :P

God Bless,

Mike Gilbert

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Re: Single & Double Muffs/Beards
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2013, 08:00:36 AM »
Royce, I have seen on some genetics forums where folks were claiming you can have muffs without beards, but it that is true it has to be some kind of mutation.    I kind of think they were seeing Mbmb in very hard feathered birds but just didn't realize it.    So far as I know it is not a problem within the Ameraucana breed.

Tailfeathers

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Re: Single & Double Muffs/Beards
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2013, 04:41:03 AM »
Thanks Mike.  I'll run with this until I hear from you differently.  You ain't steered me wrong yet!

God Bless,