Question on clearing up brassiness in white.

[Guest]

I had e-mailed John about this situation, and he thought maybe I might want to post the question on the board here so others can benefit from the question and answers.

Please keep in mind, I am NOT smart about genetics AT ALL.
Here is the question as I asked him.

I have a trio of Black Ameraucanas I got from Paul  this past fall. They are beautiful of course. I also have 3 white hens and a white roo. Anyway, last spring, all I had was the white ones. Now, not being much on understanding genetics I have a problem that maybe you can help with. The roo has A LOT of yellowing. See picture, this is him on Dec 31..

This is one of his hens with a black pullet from Paul in the back





Now anyway, the hens are very nice and have done very well at shows, I bred these guys last year. I ended up with some very nice chicks, but, on some of them after a few months, I noticed that they were getting some light salmonish color in their wing bows. I did not keep any of the chicks at all.
Now, Like I said previously, genetics is not my strong point when it comes to recessive or dominant white. Everyone asks me what they are dominant or recessive. I guess, that these white ameraucanas must be dominant if its letting color slip in?
Anyway, to my question:
 
What would happen if I bred the black cock to the white hens? Would I get black or white chicks first of all? Or both? and what about their chicks?
Also, what I am really wondering is would the genetics in the black cock, (and of course I don’t know those either) possibly help to make white chicks, if that’s what I get, able to hold their white color and not turn as brassy?
No amount of bleaching or bathing in any whitener has helped the roo.  He gets a bit better after molt, and the roos get NO corn at all but of course, can go outside. I would sure like to keep the hens, they only turn a bit yellow from the sun I think, It is so minor and they get sun all year long and corn occasionally, not like him at all and when they molt it is gone. I do not wish to keep the white roo because of his problems. Any help you can give me would be appreciated.



As you can see, I would like to see if it is possible to use the black roo to help get the brassyiness out of the white chicks. I am planning on breeding the blacks this spring, and have considered keeping the white hens and try breeding them to the black in the summer. This way, the only chicks I will be hatching at that time, will be from the white hens and black roo. identification will not be a problem to keep the two flocks seperate so I dont ruin my blacks. If I cannot better the color of the white birds by preventing the extreme brassiness I see now or other color as stated above (there was some light salmon color in wing bows of male chicks) I will just sell the whites, which will probably end up killed as 90% of buyers around here are asian and buy to eat. I would hate to see that. Large fowl whites arent exactly easy to obtain and really want to see if its possible wuith what I have.

[Guest]

In chickens the color white can be caused by dominate white I/ I  or recessive white c/ c.  

Both recessive white and dominate white can leak color.  In your case the gold/red is leaking through the white color.  Birds that are dominate white I/ I also carry silver and barring to make a good white bird.  Other birds carry gold inhibitors that prevent the gold from leaking. Male birds also produce testosterone ( male hormone) and this hormone helps intensify the gold color.

The problem with white is that  red or gold colors are hypostatic ( hidden under the white) can leak through the white. White does a very good job of masking ( covering) black. Your birds are genetically red/ gold  because of an e locus gene,  the gold gene and white. I do not know which e locus gene. The black color in your roo is caused by the extended black gene.

What you need to do is cross your birds so that the white is covering the black.  Breeding hypostatic black birds will take care of the gold color.

I do not know if the birds you have are dominate white or recessive white.  



If your hens are recessive white:

Black roo X white hen = all black chicks or F1 chicks

 F1 black chick X F1 black chick =

1 in 16 (1/16) = white and  hypostatic gold ( e locus gene ? and the gold gene)

3/16= white and hypostatic black These will be good birds.

       1 of the 16 will be purebreed black (two extended black  
                        genes) and white
                   
       2 of the 16 will be hybrid black ( carry an e locus and
                         the extended black gene  ) and white




If your birds are dominate white then that is a whole new thing.

black male roo X white hen= F1 chicks

All the F1 will be white with varing amounts of black flecks in the feathers. You may also get very light gray birds with a few black feathers.

F1 XF1= 3 in 16 chances of getting a clean white bird that has hypostatic black.


Rooster

[Mike Gilbert]

White Ameraucanas are generally recessive whites, unless these come from some hatchery strain.  But my best guess is recessive.    So yes, go ahead and mate the black male with your white hens.   Unless the black male carries one gene for recessive white, all the chicks will be black.   If the male has that one gene, half the chicks will be white, the rest black.
There is always the possibility of blue - but only if the whites carry the dominant BL gene.    Anyway, mate the F-1\'s together, and about 25 percent of the F-2\'s will be white.   Maybe the black male will help the combs on the whites too, as that looks like an oversized, misshaped comb on the white hen.

[Guest]

Thanks guys for your help. I will try this out this summer and see what I come up with.  I just sure do like the white, and would hate to sell them off.

[John]

F1 black chick X F1 black chick =

My emailed suggestion to Cara is very close to what Tim and Mike came up with.  One difference is that you both said to mate the F1 birds to each other and I said put the F1 cockerels back over the white hens.  Do you see any advantage to either way?

[Guest]

If the hen is recessive white:

If you back cross to the hen then you will have one chance in four of getting a white bird that carries the extended black gene. You will not get any birds that carry two of the extended black genes.  I would want to work toward a bird that was homozygous at the e locus and would carry two extended black genes. Once you get homozygous birds then you will eliminate the brassy problem. As long as you have heterozygous birds you will continue to throw some brassy whites.

On the positive side the hen backcross would produce more whites.

If I did the hen back cross I would do the following.

P = original parent

Black roo (P) X white hen (P)  = F1 black chicks

F1 black roo X white hen (P) =  F2 White chicks and black chicks

F2 white roo X F1 black hen = 3 chances in 8 getting white   chicks that carry the extended black gene

1 in 8 of the chicks will be the other e locus ( non-black)phenotype.

Rooster

[Guest]

This has all been extremely helpful. I have asked this question at several places and this is the clearest explaination or game plan I have read yet. I definetly appreciate it.

[Guest]

Silverpullet,

You can determine if your white bird is carrying one or two extended black genes. If you cross your white ameraucana with a light brown leghorn, you can find out if the ameraucana carries one or two extended black genes.

If the cross only produces black chicks then the white ameraucana has two extended black genes. If the cross produces non black chicks then the white ameraucana has an extended black gene and another e locus gene.

This test cross will work if the amerucana is recessive white.

Rooster

[Mike Gilbert]

Question:   wouldn\'t the E>R (birchen) gene at the e-locus also produce black chicks?  My brown reds are hatched with almost entirely black chick down.    Actually, I don\'t think that would be a bad e-locus gene behind recessive white, as long as the birds also carried sex linked silver (S).

[Guest]

Mike,

You are on the mark with the birchen.  Extended black would be the best because of the lack of red in the wings and pyle regions of the bird. If you throw in a few black intensifiers like Ml or melanotic then you do not have to deal with sex linked gold or the red associated with the male plumage causing gold/red  to leak through on the hackles or pyle regions. Using extended black will give the breeder one less thing to deal with.

Rooster

[Guest]

OK now, for us beginners, is the information you\'re giving in regaurds to phenotype & genotype just collected from experience or can you reccommend a starting book?

[Mike Gilbert]

Better than buying a book is a free website.   Go to:
http://marsa_sellers.tripod.com/geneticspages .   I have copied off much of their information so I have it for reference when my computer is not available.

Mike G.

[Guest]

OzarkRose,

The information I presented is based upon my own experience and with published findings. As Mike said, Seller\'s web site is a good place to learn genetics. The subject of poultry genetics can be overwhelming. I have a degree in Biology and Chemistry so the subject comes much easier to me than to people who do not have a knowledge base to build upon.  I have been studing chicken genetics for 3 years and I am still learning.

Try to digest a little at at a time. If you get confused feel free to post a question or you can send me a personal message.

Rooster

[Guest]

The yellowing of white birds has always been confusing to me. I have heard some say it is all genetics and then others say it is from too much cracked corn, and others say it is from the sun.

SO my questions is.....is yellowing always from genetics of an underlying color or can it be caused from something else??

[Guest]

Laura,
It can be caused by all three. If you think about it, all phenotypic traits have a genetic cause behind them. As has been stated, birds that are \"sex-linked silver\" at the sex-linked gold locus will tend to stay whiter and have less tendancy to turn brassy by corn or sunlight. Just from my own experience, I\'d have to say that any breed that is genetically \"silver\" ultimately has the best chance of being a \"stay white\" bird. There are other genes that can cause brassiness, such as Mahogany. Regardless of the E-locus allele, mahogany and a few other genes can put brassiness in a white bird just as it will/can put \"red\" in the hackles, shoulders and saddle feathers of many other \"colors and patterns\". Put another way, how many times have you seen an otherwise perfect black bird or barred bird that had the major fault of red \"bleeding through\"? The same thing that causes red to bleed through in a colored fowl can also cause brassiness to manifest in an otherwise white one.

In my inbred line of Oregon Cresteds, there are no specimens that contain the E^R or E allele. They are homozygous for \'gold\' as well. Yet, the recessive whites that are produced from them are true \"stay whites\". I feed them on corn or milo depending on the time of year and the amount of \"heat\" I need/want them to produce, typically at an average of 50% of their entire diet. They are also exposed to full strength sunlight. Two things these birds have going for them though, they also have the Db-dark brown gene and they DO NOT have the mahogany gene. Just goes to show you that when you\'re breeding animals, you\'re breeding the whole package, not just a couple of isolated genes. Every breed is different and even within the same breed and variety, each strain can vary. Ahh, the spice of life.  

Regards,
Dan