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Question on clearing up brassiness in white.
Guest:
I had e-mailed John about this situation, and he thought maybe I might want to post the question on the board here so others can benefit from the question and answers.
Please keep in mind, I am NOT smart about genetics AT ALL.
Here is the question as I asked him.
I have a trio of Black Ameraucanas I got from Paul this past fall. They are beautiful of course. I also have 3 white hens and a white roo. Anyway, last spring, all I had was the white ones. Now, not being much on understanding genetics I have a problem that maybe you can help with. The roo has A LOT of yellowing. See picture, this is him on Dec 31..
This is one of his hens with a black pullet from Paul in the back
Now anyway, the hens are very nice and have done very well at shows, I bred these guys last year. I ended up with some very nice chicks, but, on some of them after a few months, I noticed that they were getting some light salmonish color in their wing bows. I did not keep any of the chicks at all.
Now, Like I said previously, genetics is not my strong point when it comes to recessive or dominant white. Everyone asks me what they are dominant or recessive. I guess, that these white ameraucanas must be dominant if its letting color slip in?
Anyway, to my question:
What would happen if I bred the black cock to the white hens? Would I get black or white chicks first of all? Or both? and what about their chicks?
Also, what I am really wondering is would the genetics in the black cock, (and of course I don’t know those either) possibly help to make white chicks, if that’s what I get, able to hold their white color and not turn as brassy?
No amount of bleaching or bathing in any whitener has helped the roo. He gets a bit better after molt, and the roos get NO corn at all but of course, can go outside. I would sure like to keep the hens, they only turn a bit yellow from the sun I think, It is so minor and they get sun all year long and corn occasionally, not like him at all and when they molt it is gone. I do not wish to keep the white roo because of his problems. Any help you can give me would be appreciated.
As you can see, I would like to see if it is possible to use the black roo to help get the brassyiness out of the white chicks. I am planning on breeding the blacks this spring, and have considered keeping the white hens and try breeding them to the black in the summer. This way, the only chicks I will be hatching at that time, will be from the white hens and black roo. identification will not be a problem to keep the two flocks seperate so I dont ruin my blacks. If I cannot better the color of the white birds by preventing the extreme brassiness I see now or other color as stated above (there was some light salmon color in wing bows of male chicks) I will just sell the whites, which will probably end up killed as 90% of buyers around here are asian and buy to eat. I would hate to see that. Large fowl whites arent exactly easy to obtain and really want to see if its possible wuith what I have.
Guest:
In chickens the color white can be caused by dominate white I/ I or recessive white c/ c.
Both recessive white and dominate white can leak color. In your case the gold/red is leaking through the white color. Birds that are dominate white I/ I also carry silver and barring to make a good white bird. Other birds carry gold inhibitors that prevent the gold from leaking. Male birds also produce testosterone ( male hormone) and this hormone helps intensify the gold color.
The problem with white is that red or gold colors are hypostatic ( hidden under the white) can leak through the white. White does a very good job of masking ( covering) black. Your birds are genetically red/ gold because of an e locus gene, the gold gene and white. I do not know which e locus gene. The black color in your roo is caused by the extended black gene.
What you need to do is cross your birds so that the white is covering the black. Breeding hypostatic black birds will take care of the gold color.
I do not know if the birds you have are dominate white or recessive white.
If your hens are recessive white:
Black roo X white hen = all black chicks or F1 chicks
F1 black chick X F1 black chick =
1 in 16 (1/16) = white and hypostatic gold ( e locus gene ? and the gold gene)
3/16= white and hypostatic black These will be good birds.
1 of the 16 will be purebreed black (two extended black
genes) and white
2 of the 16 will be hybrid black ( carry an e locus and
the extended black gene ) and white
If your birds are dominate white then that is a whole new thing.
black male roo X white hen= F1 chicks
All the F1 will be white with varing amounts of black flecks in the feathers. You may also get very light gray birds with a few black feathers.
F1 XF1= 3 in 16 chances of getting a clean white bird that has hypostatic black.
Rooster
Mike Gilbert:
White Ameraucanas are generally recessive whites, unless these come from some hatchery strain. But my best guess is recessive. So yes, go ahead and mate the black male with your white hens. Unless the black male carries one gene for recessive white, all the chicks will be black. If the male has that one gene, half the chicks will be white, the rest black.
There is always the possibility of blue - but only if the whites carry the dominant BL gene. Anyway, mate the F-1\'s together, and about 25 percent of the F-2\'s will be white. Maybe the black male will help the combs on the whites too, as that looks like an oversized, misshaped comb on the white hen.
Guest:
Thanks guys for your help. I will try this out this summer and see what I come up with. I just sure do like the white, and would hate to sell them off.
John:
--- Quote ---F1 black chick X F1 black chick =
--- End quote ---
My emailed suggestion to Cara is very close to what Tim and Mike came up with. One difference is that you both said to mate the F1 birds to each other and I said put the F1 cockerels back over the white hens. Do you see any advantage to either way?
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