Author Topic: Laced Blue Ameraucana  (Read 89877 times)

KevinK1962

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Laced Blue Ameraucana
« Reply #60 on: April 21, 2012, 01:38:26 PM »
Hello,
My spouse is interested in Ameraucanas & has joined this forum. I know a bit about genetics, but not much about Ameraucanas.  I hope you do not mind if I comment on this thread.

Laced blues can be on E or ER. Blue Orpingtons are laced, but on E. The patterns on ER talked about in \"Chicken Colours\" refers to the eumelanin (black pigment), being pushed to the edges of the feathers. This allows pheomelanin (colour), such as gold or silver to show as in gold or silver laced sebrights. In order to produce that type of lacing on an ER bird, dark brown columbian (Db) is necessary, as well as the usual genes necessary for lacing (Co, Pg-Ml). It is the Co, Pg-Ml which would give the lacing on blue, without pushing all of the eumelanin to the edge of the feather on ER birds, & should have the same effect on E birds too.

In my experience many black birds carry pattern gene (Pg), as well as the obvious melanotic (Ml). I have recreated laced Orpingtons without leaving the breed by crossing blacks (Ml-Pg) with buffs (most likely Co & Db). As I was not trying to improve lacing in blues, that is where any similarity to your project ends.

If I were doing your project, while waiting for your Andalusians, I\'d try breeding a black Ameraucana with a buff or a columbian (assuming you have them in your breed) & see what happens. If you can stick within the breed it makes maintaining type so very much easier.
I am not sure whether this has been previously mentioned, but Pg, Ml & Db have linkage, (reasonably close together on the same chomosome), so the genes will most often be inherited together. A first cross between a black, hopefully, carrying Pg, & a buff, would be Pg-Ml-db+/pg+-ml+-Db, Co/co+, which ought to make selecting in future generations a bit easier (you\'d be selecting for homozygous Pg-Ml-db+ & Co) & with a cross to columbian, one would not need to think about Db. I\'m sure anyone can easily select away from wheaten (eWh) or brown (eb).

When breeding blues, it seems most sensible to breed blue to blue. That way, one can see what one is selecting; if using splash there is no way to tell whether it carries genes necessary to help or hinder. As someone else said, if all the birds carried the necessary genes there would be no need to  breed to splash.

Single combs are very easy to breed out, while white in ear lobes is much less so.

I\'d give Marans a miss, as that would really mess up egg colour, introduce leg feathering, & possibly skin colour (sorry I don\'t know the correct skin colour for Ameraucanas). Also, while blue Marans, in USA, may, or may not, have lacing, the French copper blues do not, and I have never seen a Marans with proper lacing, only edging.

Regards
krys109uk


Mike Gilbert

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Laced Blue Ameraucana
« Reply #61 on: April 21, 2012, 04:18:39 PM »
Kevin, thanks for sharing.  I\'ll confess I had never heard about the necessity of Db for lacing.  The Sellers website does not list Db as one of the components for single lacing, but it does list Pg, Co, and Ml.   Could you give us a reference on that one?  I\'m not questioning that is correct, but would like to know who figured that one out and published it.

KevinK1962

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Laced Blue Ameraucana
« Reply #62 on: April 21, 2012, 06:07:31 PM »
Hello Mike,

Here\'s a reference:

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00071669208417468#preview

Co has a more subtle effect on E & ER than it has on the other e-alleles. It is suggested that the tidy barring of exhibition type barred Plymouth Rocks is due to the presence of Co (E,B,Co), probably with enhancers, & the bright silver lacing of the silver Sussex, is thought to be due to the presence of Co (ER,S,Co).

Hope this helps

Regards
Krys109uk

Christie Rhae

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Laced Blue Ameraucana
« Reply #63 on: April 21, 2012, 11:27:48 PM »
@ KevinK1962
Thank you for that juicy post!  I love genetic info that I have to print out and read over and over until it soaks in.  Something for my brain to chew on.  

In my research I have come across mention of Db being necessary for lacing but when I see what people commonly think is the andalusian genotype Db is not listed.

Now.. I have some 7 week old blue marans chicks growing up and I swear they have what could be lacing.  But Bev Davis says that as of right now marans do not have Pg/Pg Ml/Ml.  So I am going to go back to your post and read it over again and see if I can figure out why my blue marans with no pattern genes appear to have lacing.  

Thank you for your input on this thread!

John

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Laced Blue Ameraucana
« Reply #64 on: April 22, 2012, 12:14:27 PM »
Quote
The Sellers website does not list Db as one of the components for single lacing,

The Poultry Genetics site does include it as part of the recipe.  It is the same as spangled, but with Columbian added to push the black to the edges.

http://www.edelras.nl/chickengenetics/mutations1.html
Quote
ERER PgPg DbDb MlMl CoCo

KevinK1962

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Laced Blue Ameraucana
« Reply #65 on: April 22, 2012, 02:25:31 PM »
Quote from: Christie Rhae
@ KevinK1962
In my research I have come across mention of Db being necessary for lacing but when I see what people commonly think is the andalusian genotype Db is not listed.



Christie,
Db is not a component of the genotype for blue Andalusions. \"Blue\" is not a \"color\" pigment, but a dilution of black pigment. Db would push all of the black pigment to the edge of the feather, leaving only color pigment.

Kind regards,
Kevin and Krys

John

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Laced Blue Ameraucana
« Reply #66 on: April 22, 2012, 03:51:29 PM »
Quote
Db is not a component of the genotype for blue Andalusions.

Db may be helpful with single lacing on brown birds, but it would add unwanted color to the blue variety from what I understand.
A variety with sex-linked silver would mask it, as with silver spangled.
This has forced me to go back and do some research.

I like Kevin\'s idea of crossing to buff to bring in Co, so you could stay within the breed.  Maybe try two or three approaches to the project.

Mike Gilbert

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Laced Blue Ameraucana
« Reply #67 on: April 22, 2012, 04:32:04 PM »
Quote from: Mike Gilbert
Kevin, thanks for sharing.  I\'ll confess I had never heard about the necessity of Db for lacing.  The Sellers website does not list Db as one of the components for single lacing, but it does list Pg, Co, and Ml.   Could you give us a reference on that one?  I\'m not questioning that is correct, but would like to know who figured that one out and published it.


I read the abstract.   Carefoot says the black laced blue (Andalusian) had been confirmed to be homozygous for E, Pg, Co, Ml and db+.   The latter is not the presence of dark brown (Db), but rather the absence of it.  We need Ameraucanas to have the same genotype for plumage color as the Andalusian.   Therefore, Db would not be desired.  Am I missing something?  
For this color pattern I believe any combination of E and/or E^R would get the job done.  Since the two are so similar, chances are we will never know short of laboratory DNA analysis.
I still believe the shortest route to the goal is the one Christie proposed:   Blue Andalusian crossed with Black or Blue Ameraucana.   Single combs are easily bred out.   I have personal experience in breeding out white earlobes, and it only takes about two or three generations if you raise enough birds.   And I personally believe the Andalusian is closer to correct type than is Orpington.  Plus  the white eggs of the Andalusian won\'t mess up blue egg color.  When I crossed buff bantams with E^R (brown red) bantams, the F-1\'s looked like the Black Golds (gold version of the Silver Sussex color).  They are black with narrow gold lacing and shafting.  That\'s a long way from black laced blue.

vanalpaca

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Laced Blue Ameraucana
« Reply #68 on: April 22, 2012, 06:08:02 PM »
Am I correct that no one currently has Blue Ameraucanas with the correct lacing and pattern genes for lacing? But that what is currently available is with edging only? Thanks.

KevinK1962

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Laced Blue Ameraucana
« Reply #69 on: April 22, 2012, 06:12:44 PM »
Hello, I am Kevin\'s spouse krys. I wrote the first couple of posts under Kevin\'s membership.

 I think we are now talking at cross purposes. I think I probably misunderstood one of Christie\'s posts from back in Feb.  
I have been trying to convey that Db is not part of the blue Andalusian genotype & that the addition of Db would give a colour similar to that of a sebright. i.e. that Db would push all of the black based pigment (which includes blue) to the edge of the feather.
I don\'t think we are disagreeing about the genotype of Blue Andalusian, other than I think it could be on E or ER.
As Clive Carefoot wrote in his paper, Blue Andalusian would be would be E or ER, Bl/bl+, Co/Co, Pg-Ml-db+/Pg-Ml-db+
Gold Sebright would be homozygous ER, Co, Pg-Ml-Db.

I suggested black (probably E) X buff. I don\'t suppose every black carries Pg, but in my experience black often does carry Pg. I have got to gold laced, blue laced & tolbunt in UK type Orpingtons by using Pg-Ml from blacks, thus avoiding outcrossing to another breed.
 I did not mean to imply the F1s would give proper lacing that one could instantly use on blues....I wish it were that easy.

I also breed, & mess around with colours of French type Marans; I have never experienced Pg in any ER Marans.

I am sorry to have caused confusion. krys109uk

Mike Gilbert

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Laced Blue Ameraucana
« Reply #70 on: April 22, 2012, 07:16:12 PM »
Don\'t apologize, you provided some good information and made us think.   It\'s a pleasure to exchange ideas with someone so well versed in poultry genetics, and I\'m probably easily confused.   Please continue to contribute.

Christie Rhae

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Laced Blue Ameraucana
« Reply #71 on: April 22, 2012, 11:18:18 PM »
Krys,

Are you the same Krys from the marans.org yahoo forum?  
If so, I very much enjoy your posts on that forum. Always so informative!
Marans and ameraucanas are the two breeds of chickens I have chosen to breed.

KevinK1962

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Laced Blue Ameraucana
« Reply #72 on: April 22, 2012, 11:36:59 PM »
Hello Christie,
Yes, my wife Krys is involved with the Marans Yahoo group, and is friends with Bev Davis, (both Britts).

Kind regards,
Kevin

vanalpaca

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Laced Blue Ameraucana
« Reply #73 on: April 24, 2012, 05:21:23 PM »
15 Blue Andalusian eggs received by post, 3 made it to lockdown. 1 oozed stuff and the other 2 did not even internal pip.......so back to looking. Hoping I can talk to the judge at Lucasville show in December and maybe get a couple birds come spring......

heatherscooby77

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Laced Blue Ameraucana
« Reply #74 on: April 24, 2012, 11:14:13 PM »
Well, I am interested in this project.  I considered using Blue Sumatras.  Which I still might try.  I ordered two dozen of Blue Andalusian eggs.  So I am going to try that route too.  I posted in BYC about using the Sumatras and I got a little bit discouraged.  Then I realized I am going to try, it won\'t hurt.

Now for an FYI, I had one of those cinnamon reddish color EE with a little bit of black ticking (not sure what its called).  She was one of my first hens, they told me she was an Ameraucana, but of course she was not.  I kept her for my egg flock.  After I got my pure blue roo I put them together.  Wouldn\'t you know that I got some of the most fantastic lacing I had seen up until that time!  This was 07/11, I kept the only two hens from this mating.  I will have to get pictures to make sure it is lacing, and not the edging.  I will do that this weekend.  So I can see the buff route working too, probably the 2nd gen. out.