The Official Forum of the Ameraucana Breeders Club > Breeding
Laced Blue Ameraucana
Mike Gilbert:
--- Quote from: grisaboy ---
--- Quote from: John ---
I think they could drop the part about \"laced\", since it can\'t be done and still maintain the wheaten pattern...based on what is accepted genetic science as of today.
--- End quote ---
Here is another link.
http://www.greenerpasturesfarm.com/ameraucanachickens.html
Check out the cockerel about halfway down the page.
Looks like someone has gotten pretty close to acheiving the impossible (based on accepted genetic science).
Curtis
--- End quote ---
I knew that type of breast coloring was possible on a blue wheaten male, because I\'ve seen it in the bantams. Very nice. And it provides another good argument as to why we need more work on the existing varieties instead of going off in about 20 different directions. Can you imagine a class of about ten cockerels at a show that look like this one, only mature? Wow!
Mike Gilbert:
--- Quote from: grisaboy ---
Here is another site to check out.
http://www.feathersite.com/Poultry/CGA/Brahma/BRKBrahma.html
This is the Brahma page from Feathersite.
Lots of impressive birds with various laced and columbian pattern birds.
There are two beautiful blue colmbian hens down toward the bottom of the page. Especially check out the pattern on the hackles. What would be the genetic make up of these birds?
My guess would be e^b Co Pg
What would they look like if you replaced e^b with E^R?
What about the \'Blue Partridge\' Brahmas? They look like Blue Dark Brahmas to me. What happened to their lacing?
Are they e^b Pg?
--- End quote ---
Curtis, the Blue Columbians would not have Pg. They would be eb/eb, Co/Co, Bl/bl, and possibly Ml/Ml or a similar gene to get that good hackle, tail, and wing coloring.
The Blue Partridge Brahmas are just eb/eb, Pg/Pg, Bl/bl; they lack Co and Db. You can find partial genotypes for a good number of color patterns on the Sellers website. Sellers gives a genotype for Blue Andalusians of E/E, Pg/Pg, Co/Co, Ml/Ml, Bl/bl. I\'m reasonably sure the same pattern could be made on E^R/E^R, in fact it may be preferable as you could get better lacing in the tails. You know, this is the type of discussion I for one envisioned years ago when the club was named the Ameraucana Breeders Club. Thanks, everyone, for participating. It makes for a more thought provoking discussion than the mindless chatter seen all too often on some message boards.
grisaboy:
Mike, I like this kind of discussion too. I find this stuff fascinating. I\'m surprised that there have not been more diffinitive studies done to actually prove out these theories. I know that when you crossed buff with brown red to make black gold you hade some buff columbian birds segregate out.
That is to be expected since buff birds carry columbian. I would think that if Blue birds carried Columbian you would get columbian type segregants when they were crossed to wheaton to make the blue wheatons. I have not heard of this happening.
I think Blue Andalusians would be E^R/E^R, Pg/Pg, Ml/Ml, Bl/bl. I think the Columbian gene is too much of a eumalenin restrictor to make a solid blue background. If you add Columbian to the above genetic fomula you would get a silver or gold single laced bird. I still think the key to good blue lacing is the melanotic genes. I think there are more than one melanotic gene that affects the intensity of the lacing.
I did find a reference that agrees with me, at least on the Columbian part. I have questions about this study though because it also questions the role of the columbian gene in the single laced and double laced patterns which I do think is pretty well established.
Title: Further study on the plumage pattern of the Blue Andalusian breed.
Personal Authors: Campo, J. L., Alvarez, C.
Author Affiliation: Departamento de Producción Animal, Area de Mejora Genética, Instituto Nacional de Investigaciones Agrarias, Apartado 8.111, 28080 Madrid, Spain.
Editors: No editors
Document Title: Poultry Science
Abstract:
Results of crosses between Blue Andalusian [female][female] and Brown (eb/eb) tester [male][male] showed that the Andalusian stock was E/E and did not carry a columbian-type gene. This fact was further verified by the cross between Blue Andalusian [male][male] and Melanotic Prat (eWh/eWh Co/Co Ml/Ml) [female][female]. It is suggested that the Bl/bl+ genotype is effective in changing black to blue pigment when only 1 eumelanising gene is present in the genetic background, but it is ineffective in the presence of 2 different genes producing eumelanin simultaneously. With an E/E genotype, Bl/bl+ does not change black pigment to blue in the areas where the melanotic (Ml) or lacing (Lg) genes produce black pigment; this results in the laced plumage pattern of the Blue Andalusian (E/E Bl/Bl+Ml-Lg/Ml-Lg). On a non-E/E genetic background, a single dosage of Bl changes the black pigment to blue in the presence of the melanotic or lacing genes. Double-laced phenotypes were not found in either cross; the role of Co in double and single-laced patterns is therefore questionable. Linkage between Ml and Lg was estimated to be 12.2±2.1%.
Curtis
KevinK1962:
--- Quote from: grisaboy ---
--- Quote from: John ---
I think they could drop the part about \"laced\", since it can\'t be done and still maintain the wheaten pattern...based on what is accepted genetic science as of today.
--- End quote ---
Here is another link.
http://www.greenerpasturesfarm.com/ameraucanachickens.html
Check out the cockerel about halfway down the page.
Looks like someone has gotten pretty close to acheiving the impossible (based on accepted genetic science).
Curtis
--- End quote ---
I agree with John about lacing on wheaten.
The bird in that pic does not have lacing, it has edging. The only way one might make proper lacing on the blue wheaten males would be to run separate cock breeding & pullet breeding pens. Krys
KevinK1962:
--- Quote from: grisaboy ---I would think that if Blue birds carried Columbian you would get columbian type segregants when they were crossed to wheaton to make the blue wheatons. I have not heard of this happening.
--- End quote ---
Are there any blue Ameraucanas with proper black lacing as in correct Andalusians?
--- Quote from: grisaboy ---I think Blue Andalusians would be E^R/E^R, Pg/Pg, Ml/Ml, Bl/bl. I think the Columbian gene is too much of a eumalenin restrictor to make a solid blue background. If you add Columbian to the above genetic fomula you would get a silver or gold single laced bird.
--- End quote ---
If one adds Co to the above genotype, one would not get silver or gold laced bird because Co expresses differently on E & ER than it does on the other e-alleles. If one added homozygous Co & Db to the above genotype one would get blue laced silver or gold. BTW there is linkage between Pg, Ml (& Db). Hope this makes sense. Krys
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