Injured roo or disease symptoms and which?

[vanalpaca]

I hav a roo who appeared to have a broken front toe, he could perch and roost but couldn\'t flatten it out to walk on. A few days later, after he got left out in the garage all night and things were knocked down, his other foot got injured? When I picked him up and tried to set him down on his \'good\' foot the next morning he screamed, so I felt for injury but couldn\'t find any on his \'good\' side and now that foot appears to have a problem. Foot is slightly pulled together......So now he is caged so he doesn\'t get beat up and can eat in peace.

His \'toe problem\' occured a week to 10 days ago. Today I noticed an all wet roo being picked on and his foot \'appears injured\' and he is hopping around getting picked on and it appears to be his toe as he is hobbling like the other did. Guess he fell in the water bowl or got knocked there.

I really couldn\'t find much online. It isn\'t bumblefoot. Could it be an injury since my roos are all together in a coop at night and free range in the yard during the day? These birds are over 36 weeks old?

Also, there really hasn\'t been any wild birds around for most of the winter. But I am noticing that wild birds are up in the trees coming through during the day. Mostly blackbirds/grackles, or starlings?

Any ideas if it isn\'t an injury from the bully boys/other roos? They were fine all winter but featherneck picking has gotten worse since the weather got better??

Thanks!

[vanalpaca]

I guess, with keeping the 20 or so roos together all winter and they coming up onto 9 months old, that this is just them getting older and jumping on each other.

They have managed to lame? another roo in the last two weeks, so that makes 2 that can\'t run and have to be penned separate so they don\'t get beat up.

The long toe appears bent and the toes are drawn together. When perching, the 2 roos can use the foot to help perch but they cannot open the foot to walk flat or to run.

The first roo was in the garage overnight and I think he injured the second limb as when I placed him on the ground with his weight on that foot the next day, he screamed. He now hobbles around in his cage and peacefully eats and drinks. The other chickens were keeping him away from the food/water bowls.

I don\'t know if this is just a natural accident/injury, the other roos jumped on them, etc, so much that it caused it, or it could be symptoms of some chicken disease.

I would welcome comments of private messages if you don\'t want to post. I see that over 30 folks have viewed my post but not one idea as to what may be the problem?

I am new to chickens. Help me learn?? Thanks.

[Christie Rhae]

Maybe it is time to thin down the cockerel pen?  
Only the strong survive?  I am actually sooo happy to be down to only two ameraucana cockerels.  I am waiting for chicks from  John Blehm...making room for the good ones.  

[Sharon Yorks]

If it were me, these are the things I would be looking for and questions I would be asking myself: (I have to say that so it doesn\'t appear that I am telling you what you should do or appearing to know anything myself :-)

Are there any other symptoms other that his lame foot: watery eyes or nose, coughing, sores, ruffled feathers...

He is still eating, so that is a good sign. Is he still crowing? The curled up toes may just be a symptom of pain. Is there any heat or swelling in his foot? Any peck marks or cuts on any parts of his feet or face? Does his toe appear broken? Can he curl it with the others?

If you\'re not seeing any other sickness signs, it would be my \"guess\" that he just got injured and it\'s time to separate the males. And maybe if you stand at a distance and watch them for a little while, you may see what\'s going on between them and if there is a gang boss with cohorts trying to eliminate the competition.  

Just a thought.

[vanalpaca]

Just got the roos banded. Taking photos so I can cull down to the breeder group and the pasture bug patrol boys. They were together all winter so I could have them big enough to feather in and see who would make it to stud and who would be a total dud....

After talking to some long time chicken folks, there are NO other symptoms of anything wrong with the birds. All healthy and active and the two injured boys are just that.

So they are getting their own condo until they either get better and if they don\'t, I shall have to cull them. I didn\'t know if it was disease and therefore safe to eat them or not?

Now that they have numbers, I can see which boys ALWAYS do the attack/jumping picking. They do like to gang up when they have one on the run.

Now that they are 9 month I can see who makes the grade to Standard. I\'m thinking the ones that got beat on are the better temperment, though.....

Thanks for the response. I wanted to be sure things were still ok with new chicks coming in this spring.

[vanalpaca]

Marek\'s. Now there are 3-4 lame and the rest the skin right around the eye appears pulled away from the eye and kind of droopy. So it\'s about 6 weeks and that is the same time as the weather turned nice and the spring songbirds returned. This was a vacant property for the last 2 years and a completely closed flock raised from day old chicks flown in and eggs hatched and never vaccinated for Marek\'s.  Despite removing the lame birds, disease progressed and nearly all 23 appear affected. Ah well. Any incoming chickens will be vaccinated and isolated. Thanks for your help.  Fortunately this was not Ameraucanas, but a rare breed flock that was over 9 months old at exposure, so apparently Marek\'s strikes the older birds as well.

[Beth C]

Oh Bonnie I am so sorry... that\'s heartbreaking...

[Mike Gilbert]

Marek\'s vaccination must be done as newly hatched chicks to be effective according to the \"experts.\"    Older birds brought in may or may not have been vaccinated, but if they are adults they may be resistant in any case.   Some strains have been bred for natural resistance, but many have not.  The organism causing Marek\'s remains in the soil for many, many years.  Once it is there it will probably always be there.   Some of the \"rare\" breeds may be just that because of the very fact they are susceptible.

[Sharon Yorks]

Marek\'s. Now there are 3-4 lame and the rest the skin right around the eye appears pulled away from the eye and kind of droopy. So it\'s about 6 weeks and that is the same time as the weather turned nice and the spring songbirds returned.

So sorry to hear about your flock. That is a big blow, regardless of the breed. I hope you don\'t mind me asking, but I\'m curious about a few things. When you say lame, are they limping or laying on the ground with legs separated? Also, who diagnosed them with having Mareks? I\'m trying to learn all I can about all of these illnesses, so any additional information that you\'ve recently learned, and would be willing to share with us, may be helpful to one of us in the future.

Also, I\'m not sure how contagious that is or how to clean up after it, but I bought a Fogmaster Jr last year and fog my coop with Oxine on a monthly basis to help fight off any air born stuff. You can fog the coop (more like misting) while the birds are inside it. I\'ve read that it can actually help their breathing, too. I don\'t use a mask or anything. I really like it.

http://www.cleanertoday.com/Fogmaster-JR-5330-Mold-fogger-p/tool-fogmaster.htm

[vanalpaca]

All of the birds are now symptomatic of Marek\'s according to the online descriptions.

Lame, the foot is clawed up, forward and while the bird can close it further as in helping to perch, it cannot open the foot to walk flat upon it. A couple of them appear to have a \'dropped wing\'. This is neurological, inflammation of the sciatic nerve of the spine causing this, from the disease.

One of the symptoms affects the eyes. The skin is all droopy around the eyes and the iris\'s are changing color sort of graying out. This is called grey eye.

The disease presents in 4 different areas. The worse is that they will develop tumors on their major organs.

Going light is another symptom, wasting, but that is iffy in a large pen as my group of 20 or so, the other roos are keeping the lame ones \'down\' and increasing their stress levels.

This is a herpes virus and it affects immunity at the cellular level and changes T-cells. Stress increases the effects of the disease.

The live vaccine is made from turkey herpes virus, so running a \'white turkey\' with the flock of chickens is exposing them to the same thing as vaccinating them does. The turkey may become susceptible to something called \'black head\' but the chickens would be protected against/develop immunity to the chicken strain of herpes virus that is Marek\'s.

Marek\'s is called \'chicken cancer\' because of the tumors. I am currently supplying herbs that will increase their immune systems (goldenseal) aid rebuilding of the t-cells (echinacia) and looking for the lemon balm which is supposed to help against herpes viruses. Additionally KELP is supposed to increase the birds natural vitality and support their immune systems. It is possible for some birds to appear to recover from the disease but they may succumb later to tumors and will always be carriers shedding the disease.

Mareks has no treatment and no cure. The virus is shed in the feather follical/dander. It is highly contagious and windborne. It is also carried by DARKLING BEETLES whose larval form is known as MEALWORMS that live in the chicken coop. I\'ve never fed mine mealworms. Contamination is strictly airborne in this case.

I haven\'t been on others farms around their chickens and my birds got this with the return of fair spring weather and the songbirds.

They also say that a farm down the road could have Marek\'s disease and the wind can carry it to your farm at even a mile away.

The vaccine is effective for 2 years. The newborn chick develops higher immunity which is why dayold vaccine is recommended than older birds. Older birds do develop some immunity to the disease with the vaccine and whole flock vaccination is still recommended. Vaccinating the fetus in the EGG prior to the chick hatching has been shown to yield even better immunity.

It takes 2 weeks from infection to show any symptoms at all, with the first in my case being gradual lameness. It was only yesterday that the 3rd bird was lame and a 4th had obvious wing dropping as he was tripping on it occasionally. At that time I looked and most of the roos now look rheumy eyed with the oddish skin drooping around the eyes and their eye color is fading.

These are Welsummers, a dutch breed that was made using several birds during the early 1900\'s including Barneveldars, another Dutch breed. I always have to look up what they are thought to be made from.

It is a harsh lesson from being uninformed about what the disease is.

My coop is on a dirt floor and is 2 cattle panels (wire) tied together and lashed onto 4 landscape timbers. It has two pieces of 4x8 plywood attached to the South and West sides with a tarp tied across the top. There is lots of fresh air and it is all wired over with chicken wire. They free range in our yard daily and that area is chain link fencing 130x150 feet x5 feet high.

Since it is carried in the birds dander and feathers.....
Can\'t protect them from the wind and songbirds if they free range.

If it was wood or metal with a cement floor, then power washing would make sense, but what about your runs?

New stock vaccinated and quarantined for a few weeks until immunity develops....

[vanalpaca]

When working with exotic parrots in aviaries and outdoor breeding facilities, we of course covered the tops of all the flights to stop access from wild bird droppings and double wired the runs to keep out MICE.

Cages and pans were first washed/scrubbed down with soap to cleanse off the dirt, then sprayed with wavicide or avisan to kill possible disease. On some disease that we could not kill the pathogens, our vets recommended \'washing away\' the germs and allowing the cages to dry in the sunlight, as sunlight is known to kill a lot of stuff.

I can\'t decontaminate dirt and grass. I can remove and wash the tarp and let the rains and sunshine cleanse the wire. But I\'m not moving them until the disease is finished.

Have a nice Easter weekend all. I was pretty depressed and upset about this yesterday as I have several hundred into the flock and the feed at this point and was hoping to start eating them, instead will be burying them or burning them.....

Once this disease has run it\'s course through the flock, we will see if we have any survivors to see if we can \'breed for immunity\'.

[greeneggsandham]

Sorry you are having to deal with this.  That\'s got to be tough and depressing to see.

Mealworms, huh?  Dang, I just bought my hens some of those freeze dried ones a month ago.  I think I\'ll throw the remainder away now.

[Christie Rhae]

Oh gosh I am so sorry. That is devastating.

I am going to find out about Mareks here in Hawaii.  There is only one vet on my island who deals with chickens..2 hours away but maybe they can advise me.  
We have lots of wild birds and I cannot keep the doves out of my pens.  

[vanalpaca]

Well, when it is dander carried by the wind.....

As for freezedried mealworms, it said that darkling beetles are often found living in coops and they will carry and transmit the disease as well and their larvae are mealworms. It was talking about the insects commonly found in chicken coops and saying that mosquitos, mites and lice are not carriers.

So I am thinking that they are saying that the beetles can carry the disease that is already existing on the property to the birds and from cage to cage, so if they were inside it would be good management practice to eliminate them.

It may be ok or maybe not to feed mealworms raised in bulk. My birds free range, so no control on which insects they ingest. I\'m going to be trying plantings of lemon balm around my chicken areas as studies are showing it useful against herpes virus. And definitely start them on kelp meal as addition to a feeding program.