Artificial light and male fertility

[Schroeder]

I've had 15 hours of light in my hens/pullets coop for a couple of months.  I'm getting about 9 eggs a week from my 3 Wheaten hens, and just put 18 eggs in the incubator a few days ago.  I have a bachelor pad with 5 cocks/cockerels of different breeds and varieties in which there is no added light.  I'd been taking a BW cockerel to the hens for 24 hour periods every several days.

When I broke open the eggs to look for fertility, I couldn't see the "bullseye" but thought maybe I just didn't know what I was looking for, so I went ahead and incubated 18 anyway.  Well, I just read in another forum that it is just as important to have the cock exposed to 15 hours of light to assure fertility.   I guess I will know in a few more days when I candle, but I don't know if I will be able to tell immediately.  I had been so excited about the prospect of October show ready birds, but now my enthusiasm has been deflated.

How important do you think artificial light is on the males?  I'm reluctant to start with artificial light in the bachelor coop because the added hours of light (inside) might increase the potential for fighting.  If you recommend this is critical, would it be bad to thrust the cockerel into 15 hours of light without slowly acclimating him to the additional light?

[Sharon Yorks]

I have more questions and opinions, rather than answers. If you are putting a male in with the hens for 24 hour periods every several days, isn't he getting switched back and forth from 15 hours of light to just a little light every several days? I'm not sure what time of day you are taking him in and out, but I would think that would be harder on him, than just switching him over and leaving him. And I am not real sure about the light making a rooster fertile as much as his desire would be increased (someone correct me if I'm wrong). Is there any particular reason why you don't want to leave him in with them? How old are your hens? If they are older and the male is young, maybe they are just crabby old ladies telling him no...I only say that because I have one that is doing that right now. Have you actually seen him covering any of the hens?

In November, I decided to put extra lights on two of my pens so I placed a timer that comes on at 3:30am, then goes off at 4:30pm, which still gives them a little bit of light to get to their perches so the lights out doesn't leave them in pitch dark. I don't remember how much light they were getting at the time in November, and maybe it would have been better to slowly introduce them to extra light, but I just turned it on. Within a couple of weeks, the eggs increased dramatically and I am expecting New Year's Day chicks. If my memory serves me correctly, it DID take the males a week or so to get busy. The younger male was just figuring it out with the pullets and the older male seemed to have to reintroduce himself to the hens.

Don't know if this helps.

[Schroeder]

Sharon:  Thanks for always giving your comments in this forum.
No, I have never actually seen the cockerel covering the hens, but I haven't observed for long periods of time.  My routine has been to put him on the roost with the hens after dark, and then taking him back to the bachelor pad the next night.  I hadn't thought about confusing him with the occasional 15 hour days.

I hadn't wanted to leave him in the pen with the hens full time, as I thought the ratio of 1 to 3 would be to strenuous on the hens.  In retrospect, maybe I should have put him, the Wheatens and a couple of other brown layers (not for hatching) in the area which could comfortably handle 7 to 8 birds.

[Sharon Yorks]

I don't know that 1 male and 3 hens is too much unless he is very young and aggressive towards them. One of the problems with putting in 7-8 hens would be if he picks a few favorites and none happen to be the hens you're wanting to hatch from. If it were me, I'd put him in with the 3 hens and try to spend a little time in the coop, watching to see how he acts towards them. If he IS pretty active, you should be able to see that pretty soon. And I would watch him over a few days. I had a couple of cockerels who acted like a bull in a china shop when I first put them in with hens, but then, not long after they were walking around asking permission and getting turned down often.

Have you given up on trying to hatch now? Don't get discouraged. You still have plenty of time. I think if you put the male in now with the 3 hens, and give them a few days before you start collecting (or at least see him cover them a couple of times), you can still hatch out some late Jan./early Feb. chicks. I don't know how long your current eggs have been in the incubator, but if you candle at 6-7 days, you should be able to see something.

I really think your problem was taking the male in and out too often. And I only have my light on for 13 hours. I don't know if 15 is necessary. I think most say 14.

Let me know what you get when you candle. You've got me curious now :-)

[Schroeder]

Thanks Sharon.  I'm taking your advice and I'll let you know.

[John]

And I only have my light on for 13 hours. I don't know if 15 is necessary. I think most say 14.

I go with 16 hours of light on both males and females, less may do just about as well but I've read that some commercial laying operations use 18 hours of light to get the most eggs.

[Sharon Yorks]

I go with 16 hours of light on both males and females, less may do just about as well but I've read that some commercial laying operations use 18 hours of light to get the most eggs.

I'm just curious, John. Have you ever experimented with less light to see what would happen? I just now checked around the Internet and see that most do say 14-16 hours, but is that for "maximum" egg production? And is there any harmful results as to having them on long hours for long periods of time? I'm sure commercial people aren't too concerned with adverse side effects and are probably swapping their layers out all the time. You guys have been doing this for much longer than I have so I respect your experience and advice tremendously.

I guess my real question is, if I have my birds on 13 hours of light now and am getting 6-9 eggs from 11 hens/pullets every day, would more light give them an even higher egg production, or is it that the addition light has switched their egg making switch "on" so the 1-3 hour variance doesn't really matter. I don't know why my mind wonders about such things. It just does 

[Schroeder]

0 for 18.  Live and learn!

[Birdcrazy]

Sorry!

[Sharon Yorks]

0 for 18.  Live and learn!

Sorry to hear that. Did you put the rooster back in with the hens? Are you going to try again soon?

[John]

I'm just curious, John. Have you ever experimented with less light to see what would happen? I just now checked around the Internet and see that most do say 14-16 hours, but is that for "maximum" egg production? And is there any harmful results as to having them on long hours for long periods of time? I'm sure commercial people aren't too concerned with adverse side effects and are probably swapping their layers out all the time. You guys have been doing this for much longer than I have so I respect your experience and advice tremendously.

I guess my real question is, if I have my birds on 13 hours of light now and am getting 6-9 eggs from 11 hens/pullets every day, would more light give them an even higher egg production, or is it that the addition light has switched their egg making switch "on" so the 1-3 hour variance doesn't really matter. I don't know why my mind wonders about such things. It just does

I think I started out with 12 hours of light years ago when I first started using artificial light to stimulate egg production.  I still start each year with 12 hours/day and keep increasing it until I'm at 16 hours/per day.
I do disagree with the comment about commercial people and adverse side effects.  When egg production is someones livelihood and not just a hobby I have to assume they want what is "optimal".  Wild birds like turkeys lay in the spring when there is about 12 to 15 hours of daylight, so your 13 hours should be just fine in my opinion.     
A hen has a limited number of eggs that she will lay in her lifetime.  Some breeds lay more per day, on average, than others.  Since light stimulates egg production we are just using it to our advantage to get the most eggs per hen during hatching time so we can hatch the most chicks.   

[Sharon Yorks]

When I commented about commercial people, I was referring to the people who furnish eggs for the grocery stores for everyone to eat. I was not referring to anyone who breeds, sells, and raises chickens. I, myself, am doing somewhat the same as what you are referring to...trying to get as many eggs up front. I am then selecting the best of all of my hatches, then selling almost everything else. It allows me to get more eggs, yet I'm still selling young hens that the next person can enjoy many more eggs from. I'm just trying to do it as close to natural as possible so as to not stress them. I didn't mean any disrespect, if that's the way it came across. I was just talking about big egg farms selling to grocery stores, and even then, just assuming their main concern was strictly in production. Good lesson in not being so eager to through my thoughts and opinions about others out there.   

[John]

Sharon,

I didn't think you meant many disrespect and I don't either, I just think that commercial egg operations would be very concerned about adverse side effects.  When I look at how little the price of eggs has gone up over the decades I know they have to run extremely cost effective operations.  

[Schroeder]

0 for 18.  Live and learn!

Sorry to hear that. Did you put the rooster back in with the hens? Are you going to try again soon?

I put the 8 mo cockerel in with the 3 hens and observed for about 30 minutes.   Some displays of authority by him but no action.  I'll keep them together now.  Problem is, after a week or more I'm afraid he'll not be accepted back into the bachelor pad with 1 larger Black A and 3 much larger Orpingtons.

[Birdcrazy]

Problem is, after a week or more I'm afraid he'll not be accepted back into the bachelor pad with 1 larger Black A and 3 much larger Orpington.

I'll bet you are right on target!