Red Coloring Poll

[Cesar “CJ”]

On another forum, a picture was posted of Bantams Red Ameruacanas. They were created by Jim Tuckwood 10 years ago and no one knows what exactly happened to them.

This got me thinking of how to create a Red Ameraucana, and what type of Red coloring would be desired to see on a possible Red Ameraucana?

The foundation is there with Buff and Wheaten, since (RC) Rhode Island Reds and  Buckeyes (Pea Comb) share the same extension gene Wheaten (eWh) and Im believing Red Orpingtons do as well. Also Red Orpington gives you the white skin needed for slate legs, but single comb. With RIR and Buckeyes you would have to worry about the recessive yellow skin gene.

Again this is just a hypothetical scenario, its something Ive been thinking about for a couple of years and recently because of the bantam pictures made me think about it again.

[Don]

Cesar,   I have never seen the red orps but the picture you had looks pretty good.  I don't have a preference for the color between the three.  The project would take some time, maybe many years.  In addition to combs and egg color it would take some major breeding programs to get them to be the right type and body size.  I might guess that any of those breed crosses would create a very heavy bantam as Hybrids usually get in influx of size. 

I can't see what color is in the tail of the Orp, but I imagine that you are talking about a Black tailed Red?  And you would want to research the genetic makeup of the bloodlines you were trying to use.  For discussion, I've read where the Buff and Wheaten are based on dominate Wheaten, but the RIR is based on recessive Wheaten.  (Pure Red with no Black is based on eb)  You would need to pick up the Mahogany and Columbian and breed out the Champagne (blonde) color.  You could decide whether or not you wanted black in the hackle.  This would determine how many doses of Co you needed, right?  Buff theoretically has more than you need, but I've seen Black tailed Buff lines developed out of pure Buffs too.   

From my few years of working with buff LF, I have seen males come much darker than what you want for Buff.  Some tending toward red in a big way.  Especially when there has been a cross between Wheaten and Buff.  But I am not sure if you can get to the RIR color without an outcross.  The dark color like in the RIR would take some time for sure.  You might have more trouble getting the females dark though.  Most of the lines seem to have females lighter anyway.  But time would tell.  It might just take a lot of time and feed. 

[Birdcrazy]

Would this project also include LF? I feel it needs to keep the balance we have as in our other ABA and APA recognized varieties.

[Cesar “CJ”]

Cesar,   I have never seen the red orps but the picture you had looks pretty good.  I don't have a preference for the color between the three.  The project would take some time, maybe many years.  In addition to combs and egg color it would take some major breeding programs to get them to be the right type and body size.  I might guess that any of those breed crosses would create a very heavy bantam as Hybrids usually get in influx of size. 

I can't see what color is in the tail of the Orp, but I imagine that you are talking about a Black tailed Red?  And you would want to research the genetic makeup of the bloodlines you were trying to use.  For discussion, I've read where the Buff and Wheaten are based on dominate Wheaten, but the RIR is based on recessive Wheaten.  (Pure Red with no Black is based on eb)  You would need to pick up the Mahogany and Columbian and breed out the Champagne (blonde) color.  You could decide whether or not you wanted black in the hackle.  This would determine how many doses of Co you needed, right?  Buff theoretically has more than you need, but I've seen Black tailed Buff lines developed out of pure Buffs too.   

From my few years of working with buff LF, I have seen males come much darker than what you want for Buff.  Some tending toward red in a big way.  Especially when there has been a cross between Wheaten and Buff.  But I am not sure if you can get to the RIR color without an outcross.  The dark color like in the RIR would take some time for sure.  You might have more trouble getting the females dark though.  Most of the lines seem to have females lighter anyway.  But time would tell.  It might just take a lot of time and feed.

Don, I was thinking of doing LF first. I think a single cross with one of them will get that red right away and I was thinking of breeding to buff or wheaten then line breeding to keep the pea comb and egg color going. I conisdered using a Rose Comb Rhode island red to get Pea Comb again quick. And buckeyes of course have pea combs already. All I would have to worry about would be the recessive yellow skin. 

[Jean]

Cesar,

I would not recommend using a rose comb.  The pea comb is more dominant over the single comb whereas if you breed a pea and a rosecomb they can both express and you get a cushion comb.  Much easier to remove a single comb in the line.

I was considering the red project also, but that will be down the road once the chocolates are done. You always want to use the ameraucana male in your outcross to keep as much of your egg color as possible.

[Cesar “CJ”]

Cesar,

I would not recommend using a rose comb.  The pea comb is more dominant over the single comb whereas if you breed a pea and a rosecomb they can both express and you get a cushion comb.  Much easier to remove a single comb in the line.

I was considering the red project also, but that will be down the road once the chocolates are done. You always want to use the ameraucana male in your outcross to keep as much of your egg color as possible.

Jean from my understanding the first cross will produce cushion R/P. Once bred back to Pea Comb, half the offspring should be pure for pea comb P/P, Right ?

I'm not doing the project now, I just got the bug to figure out how to get the red color. I'll prob start the same time you do.

[Don]

Combs do not appear as simple as some of the gene sets. 
   From what I've understand from several sources:

   Rrpp, RR,pp provide rose combs
   rrPP, rrpP show as pea combs
   rrpp provides single combs
   RrPp, RRPP provide cushion combs

But the other aspect of the cross besides leg color in my mind is really egg color.  If you cross into a strain with dark brown egg color, it will probably take a long time to get back to blue egg color.  Buff egg color is still suffering from the buff orp crosses way back.  I seems that the brown egg color is much darker in the red colors most of the time.  Silver genes in AMs usually have better blue color.  Its too bad that there is not a red bird with slate legs and at least white egg color.  Most of the time you would at least have to breed out white ear lobs too.     

Gordon, it would be great if we had a counterpart in the bantam version to go along with any project in LF or vice versa.  But we've had folks start a color in one or the other before and later someone will take on the project of translating into the other size.  I know that we've had folks working on several colors over the past number of years.  Most often I think in the past they started with bantam and then breed up in size.
    Birchen, Columbian, Buff Columbian, Mottled, Cuckoo Lav, Partridge, and Chocolate have all been started at some point in one or the other.  I don't know if there are LF projects with Chocolate out there to go with bantams starting now?  But then you have the natural offshoots of some other colors like Splash and Splash Wheaten because folks are breeding the Blues and Blue Wheatens.  These are easier because you already have the parent colors progressed in traits of the Breed.    So there are lots of projects for people to work on, and then there are the 8 accepted colors that still need progression too.  Plenty to interest anyone who wants to take on an accepted color or project color.     

[Cesar “CJ”]

Chocolate have all been started at some point in one or the other.  I don't know if there are LF projects with Chocolate out there to go with bantams starting now?   

Don, Yes Gene is currently working on the LF. Also myself and another gentlemen in Phoenix name Reed. I crossed a 3rd generation chocolate rooster to my best black/blue pullets and got some decent females, but the males werent the best.

Reed in phoenix has one generation up on me. He crossed with John Blehms blacks and his spring 2015 hatch look good so far. (attached picture is of his chocolate Rooster)

I sold a bunch of pullets as backyard layers because I could guarantee them females due to the chocolate gene being sexlink. Everyone has sent me pictures of their eggs and Im they're getting really good egg color.

I dont have the original breeding trio anymore, I lost them to the heat. But Im currently incubating eggs from birds that I hatched last spring, just for fun.  I got them from people who have them as pets.

Being able to cross with blacks has helped them come along quick.

[Cesar “CJ”]

Only 4 votes? Come on folks lets hear from you