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Lavender by design...

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Guest:
Good evening everyone,
I\'ve been sitting on this one since I rejoined the Ameraucana club a year and a half ago and now I think it\'s time for me to act. Before joining the first time around I wanted to create a large fowl Lavender (insert whatever breed you like, lol), so when I heard that there were members of the Ameraucana club that were working along similar lines I jumped on board without hesitation. Unfortunately for me, \"life\" happens, and all of my poultry projects have been in stasis since our big move from California. Now we\'re getting to the point in our lives where we can start truly rebuilding. I\'m getting a slow start on the large fowl Black Gold birds now, which gives me some relief from the guilty feelings that I\'ve been holding on to... I told Mike and John that I would work on them a long time ago and it\'s only been recently that I\'ve been able to. Now my sights are set on getting the stock I need to get my large fowl Lavenders going, BUT, I\'d like to run my thoughts by everyone just to see how the other members feel about my approach. So here goes...

Considering that I always look 3-4 steps ahead before I make a move, I have been pondering the problems and issues involved in making large fowl lavenders. #1, the only breeds in the USA that even have the lavender gene are bantams, as the large fowl lavender pit games seem to have been lost in the sands of time. So right off the bat there are size limiting genes to deal with, some are sex-linked and some are not. Problem #2 would be tertiary phenotypes in all the breeds of lavender bantams, such as incorrect skin color, dermal melanin blockers, feathered legs, radical comb types, etc., etc... Not to be over looked would be egg color genetics and production qualities such as rate of lay, fertility and shell thickness. Daunting to say the least...

Here is what I\'m thinking of doing... I\'d like to cross a male Lavender Old English bantam over Black Orpington hens first. The way I see it, this will give me the least amount of negative genetics that need to be removed. Skin color would be white, egg shell color is light and the general egg quality and rate of lay is there already. Selecting for comb type wouldn\'t be overly complicated as the orpingtons have a single comb. The general body shape should work well with the Ameraucana\'s and I\'ll have an immediate size gain using the larger Orpingtons as the first cross to bantams. Considering my other breed options, I\'m thinking that this cross will be the most advantageous in the long run. The only thing I haven\'t worked out yet is whether or not I\'ll take the F1 OE-Orp hens and mate them to a Black Ameraucana male, then mate their offspring to each other, OR, mate the F1 OE-Orp siblings to each other first to produce lavender F2 females, which I\'ll  mate with a Black Ameraucana male in the following year. It will take me just as long either way, but my first choice will put me a whole generation ahead in attaining Ameraucana \"type\" as they\'ll be 75% Ameraucana by year three. I\'m not worried about losing the lav gene as all the F1\'s will have one copy of it, so half their offspring will have it as well.

I realize that many of you are probably looking at getting results faster, but I want to do this the right way and get birds that are definitely \"Ameraucana\" without having to focus on earlobe and feathered leg issues for the next 10 years. Please let me know of any issues or problems that I may have missed. I need to take \"everything\" in to consideration ahead of time as the end results will be the birds I\'ll be offering to all our members as well as the general public, as \"Lavender Ameraucanas\" once they are true to type and prove to breed true to form with predictability. Can anyone think of a white skinned fowl (that is available in the USA) that would be closer in type to Ameraucanas than the Orpingtons? If there\'s a better cross I would certainly look in to them. Have I covered all my bases??? Criticize my plans......... PLEASE!  ;)

Regards,
Dan

bantamhill:
Dan,

I started from basically the same point Old English lavender x black Ameraucana. The size jump on the male side has been very good and one would never know the pullets where half bantam. (I only hatched pullets!)

My question would be why not start with black Ameraucana large fowl or see if you can pick up a lavendar cock that is 50% Ameraucana?

Michael

Guest:
Hi Michael,
Basically I\'m looking to \'super-size\' the half bantams I use before crossing them in to the Ameraucanas. It can be really difficult to get size back when you cross bantams to breeds that weigh only 5-6 pounds. I\'m also looking at the immediate benefit of the egg production qualities that should be gained from commercial hatchery birds. Also, by using specimens from another breed I\'m hoping to broaden the genetic depth of my lines so they\'ll have something more than \"just a new color\" to offer Ameraucana breeders.

Do you know where I can find Lavender Ameraucans to start with? At 50% ameraucana my guess would be that the F1\'s were mated back to their siblings to produce the F2 generation. I wasn\'t aware that there were any to be had.

If skin and leg color weren\'t issues I would have preferred Jersey Giants or Javas as those would work well in my other lavender large fowl projects. As is, I\'m only getting the Black Orpington hens for a one time hatch season, then they\'re gone.

Regards,
Dan

Mike Gilbert:
Dan, have you checked the standard weights for Ameraucana large fowl?    They are supposed to be moderate in size, with the standard calling for 6 1/2 lb cocks, 5 1/2 lb cockerels, 5 1/2  lb hens, and 4 1/2 lb pullets.    John and Michael already have lavender colored f-2 generation bantams bred from half Ameraucana stock.   I would take a few of those females and mate them with a LF black pure Ameraucana cockerel.   Going the other way, sometimes the bantam males can\'t get the job done with large fowl females.    But I have never had a problem with getting fertility with large males over bantam females.   I believe many of these lavender half breeds are half D\'Anvers, and it is easy to eliminate the cushion comb later on when color and size are restored.  It sometimes is difficult to tell phenotypically which are single comb carriers.       In my experience, it is not all that difficult to restore the proper size and weight.   In fact, all the large fowl wheatens were originally the result of crossing bantam wheatens with multi colored large fowl easter eggers.    And there are some really good sized wheaten large fowl now.   Having said all that, feel free to do it the way you like, as the more strains that are developed the greater the genetic pool available to other breeders.   Good luck!

John:
Dan,
My first thought is the same as Michael\'s about why not start with LF blacks, but I know how hard it is to breed back up to size regardless of what can be done theoretically.  Those bantam genes will haunt you and by going over-sized on the LF side you may have the compensation needed.
I would still suggest starting with the biggest black Ameraucana LF cock obtainable and use him over some F2 lavender bantam pullets.  I think you\'ll get there quicker.
The LF black strain I bred was from Australorps and I think most of the LF blacks and blues around the country are descended from them whether they are from Sand Hill or Paul Smith.  Paul and Jerry DeSmidt have bred some real show stoppers.  They are great layers too.  Wayne Meredith has done the most to get good size in the LF Ameraucanas IMHO.  Maybe he used Giants.  I don\'t know, but a few years ago I walked down the row cock birds he had and they would beat any I\'ve seen show if they were only judged on size.  
I should have a few extra F2 birds for sale at the National meet, here in Michigan, or at the Crossroads show.  They are all lavender bantams with some single, walnut and rosecombs I think.  They are 1/2 black Ameraucana, 1/4 self blue d\'Anver and 1/4 self blue OE.  As Mike said Michael may have some available and maybe Susie Winder(?).
Either way you go, welcome to this project.  We need breeders with your knowledge and practical methods.

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