Author Topic: Breeder selling to hatchery?  (Read 14303 times)

Susan Mouw

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Breeder selling to hatchery?
« on: February 09, 2016, 07:59:55 PM »
It has just been brought to my attention that there is a well-known breeder selling his pure-bred Ameraucanas to Cackle Hatchery. Cackle Hatchery is breeding that pure-bred stock and selling them as Ameraucanas.

The argument in byc is that this will, somehow, better the breed and help eliminate the confusion over EE vs Ameraucana.

My fear is that, within a few generations, this will cause a Rhode Island Red type split in the breed and we will have "hatchery quality" and "breeder quality", with few discernible similarities between the two.  It is unlikely that Cackle Hatchery will do the selective breeding and culling that a breeder would do.

Maybe I'm being too "doomsday"...what do others think?
Susan Mouw
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Dan Pitts

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Re: Breeder selling to hatchery?
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2016, 10:18:29 PM »
I'm involved in the BYC discussion, but don't know enough to comment here. I'm really curious to see the responses

Susan Mouw

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Re: Breeder selling to hatchery?
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2016, 09:12:10 AM »
Dan - I'd like to hear your take on it. :)
Susan Mouw
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Dan Pitts

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Re: Breeder selling to hatchery?
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2016, 01:39:07 PM »
Dan - I'd like to hear your take on it. :)
Ok, but bear in mind this comes from someone that only in the last year has gotten breeder quality birds.
As I said on BYC, I compare it to my first experience with BCM. Marans are so popular, and the gene pools have gotten so diluted by hatcheries and greedy "breeders", that bad birds are not easily picked out by an amateur. I can look at an orange EE and a Black AM and see the obvious difference in those birds. Right now, someone wanting to buy Ameraucanas could put Ameraucanas into a search engine, and most of the returns would either be relatively well bred AMs, or EEs that were misrepresented. Obvious difference between those two birds.
When I put black copper marans into a search engine, I saw dark eggs and black birds with copper necks, so I found a "breeder" two hours from me that had them for sale. I actually drove to get them to avoid losing them in shipping. I didn't know anything about yellow skin, Penedesenca combs, side sprigs, white feathers, straw hackles, or any of the other egregious faults that initial flock had. The breeder had dark eggs and black chickens.
I fear that is what will happen with the AMs. Most people want AMs for blue eggs, and those people buying from hatcheries, then further diluting that bloodline by not breeding them correctly, are going to do the same thing to the AMs that has been done to the BCM.
I understand that hatcheries could pick up some birds any time they wanted to, then breed and sell those birds. It just surprised me who was promoting it...

Kelsey Marinelli

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Re: Breeder selling to hatchery?
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2016, 02:02:39 PM »
As you know I am new to Ameraucana breeding however I am familiar with K9's and I can tell you that a breeder of show quality dogs would never sell to a puppy mill.

Its like any commercial business where quantity typically trumps quality over time and each bird will be used to produce my most profit regardless of conditon/standard/temperment etc.

I was turned onto the breed mostly due to the fact that I saw so many misrepresentations by hatcheries and many people confused about the diffrence between EE's and Ameraucana's. Because of this problem it was clear that I needed to reach out to a breeder. I may have paid more but I got the birds I wanted.

I guess my point is * I think access to commercial "pure breed" ameraucanas will hurt breeders in two ways. One is the diffrence between pet/backyard quality and pure selectivley bred birds will have less importance to general poultry hobbiest than the price. and two commercially bred birds may not live up to the hype of the breed and it may turn people away from them altogether.

I hope that is not too negative of a response. It does mean it may take more work in promoting the quality of birds bred to improve the breed. 
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Birdcrazy

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Re: Breeder selling to hatchery?
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2016, 04:09:34 PM »
Took a gander at Cackle Hatchery website, not all impressed with the photos of their breeding stock. Perhaps it was they were too crowded together to get a true picture. Pictures do not hold a candle to the ones Paul takes at shows, but that may have to do with the subject. Nice pictures of blue eggs though. $10.90 ea for SR day old chicks no bargain  for hatchery run quality chicks. Look what happened to LF Silver Laced Wyandottes. I dare say you could order 1000 day old chicks from any hatchery and not get 1 show quality bird. Over the years hatchery stock has regressed greatly from the Standard. Time will tell. Perhaps we will have 3 classes of so called Ameraucanas. EE    HATCHERY QUALITY    BREEDERS QUALITY 
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Susan Mouw

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Re: Breeder selling to hatchery?
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2016, 04:49:15 PM »
Marans are so popular, and the gene pools have gotten so diluted by hatcheries and greedy "breeders", that bad birds are not easily picked out by an amateur. I can look at an orange EE and a Black AM and see the obvious difference in those birds. Right now, someone wanting to buy Ameraucanas could put Ameraucanas into a search engine, and most of the returns would either be relatively well bred AMs, or EEs that were misrepresented. Obvious difference between those two birds.
When I put black copper marans into a search engine, I saw dark eggs and black birds with copper necks, so I found a "breeder" two hours from me that had them for sale. I actually drove to get them to avoid losing them in shipping. I didn't know anything about yellow skin, Penedesenca combs, side sprigs, white feathers, straw hackles, or any of the other egregious faults that initial flock had. The breeder had dark eggs and black chickens.
I fear that is what will happen with the AMs. Most people want AMs for blue eggs, and those people buying from hatcheries, then further diluting that bloodline by not breeding them correctly, are going to do the same thing to the AMs that has been done to the BCM.
I understand that hatcheries could pick up some birds any time they wanted to, then breed and sell those birds. It just surprised me who was promoting it...

I agree...this is my concern, as well.
Susan Mouw
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Susan Mouw

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Re: Breeder selling to hatchery?
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2016, 04:51:17 PM »
As you know I am new to Ameraucana breeding however I am familiar with K9's and I can tell you that a breeder of show quality dogs would never sell to a puppy mill.

Its like any commercial business where quantity typically trumps quality over time and each bird will be used to produce my most profit regardless of conditon/standard/temperment etc.

I was turned onto the breed mostly due to the fact that I saw so many misrepresentations by hatcheries and many people confused about the diffrence between EE's and Ameraucana's. Because of this problem it was clear that I needed to reach out to a breeder. I may have paid more but I got the birds I wanted.

I guess my point is * I think access to commercial "pure breed" ameraucanas will hurt breeders in two ways. One is the diffrence between pet/backyard quality and pure selectivley bred birds will have less importance to general poultry hobbiest than the price. and two commercially bred birds may not live up to the hype of the breed and it may turn people away from them altogether.

I hope that is not too negative of a response. It does mean it may take more work in promoting the quality of birds bred to improve the breed.

Exactly, Kelsey!  I, too come from a dog show breeding background and I would sooner run over my foot with a sod aerator (done it) than sell one of my dogs to a pet shop or interstate trader.

This is exactly what this breeder is doing and it is very concerning.
Susan Mouw
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Susan Mouw

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Re: Breeder selling to hatchery?
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2016, 04:52:36 PM »
Perhaps we will have 3 classes of so called Ameraucanas. EE    HATCHERY QUALITY    BREEDERS QUALITY

Yep!  We will just need to beef up our advertising/promotional/educational efforts to counterbalance this.
Susan Mouw
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Cesar “CJ”

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Re: Breeder selling to hatchery?
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2016, 06:01:17 PM »
I dont care, or see it as a big deal. Its sets a good precedent for other hatcheries to follow. Id rather have hatcheries sell "bad" true Ameraucanas than EE's labeled as Ameraucanas.

Also we cant lump all hatcheries together. Cackle has been calling their EEs correctly even before they got their Ameraucana stock, so i can respect that. They did start with a reputable breeder. What ive heard is the owner of cackle brings in quality birds to improve their stock when its needed. Besides that, what they are doing is no different than what every "BBS" novice breeder is doing now. Which is breed everything they got initially together without a plan. I see it on Facebook all the time.

Luckily they're selling blacks, I dont think you can muck up the color, only type haha. They use to sell blues and I still know breeders who have the blues that originated from them and from what I was told they were really good "typed" blues.

Only time will tell.

Susan Mouw

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Re: Breeder selling to hatchery?
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2016, 06:14:20 PM »
Besides that, what they are doing is no different than what every "BBS" novice breeder is doing now. Which is breed everything they got initially together without a plan. I see it on Facebook all the time.

Luckily they're selling blacks, I dont think you can muck up the color, only type haha. They use to sell blues and I still know breeders who have the blues that originated from them and from what I was told they were really good "typed" blues.

Only time will tell.

I don't think you can compare what a few novice people are doing with their backyard pens of a few blacks, blues, splash with the visibility and genetic impact of a good sized commercial hatchery. And, while you may disagree with inter-breeding blacks, blues, and splash; there are many other breeders that have been around a lot longer than either you or me, Cesar, that have made that a standard practice.  Don't confuse disagreement over methodology with a complete lack of breeding ethics.

Those novice breeders will either get out of Ameraucanas in a few years when their poor quality birds don't win at shows or don't sell enough to pay the feed bills.  That commercial hatchery will only ramp up production as the demand for Ameraucanas grow - as it is now.

I do not think Cackles is setting a good example for other hatcheries to follow. I do think they are setting a precedent that will be regrettable in the future.

Susan Mouw
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Cesar “CJ”

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Re: Breeder selling to hatchery?
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2016, 11:25:07 PM »
Besides that, what they are doing is no different than what every "BBS" novice breeder is doing now. Which is breed everything they got initially together without a plan. I see it on Facebook all the time.

Luckily they're selling blacks, I dont think you can muck up the color, only type haha. They use to sell blues and I still know breeders who have the blues that originated from them and from what I was told they were really good "typed" blues.

Only time will tell.

I don't think you can compare what a few novice people are doing with their backyard pens of a few blacks, blues, splash with the visibility and genetic impact of a good sized commercial hatchery. And, while you may disagree with inter-breeding blacks, blues, and splash; there are many other breeders that have been around a lot longer than either you or me, Cesar, that have made that a standard practice.  Don't confuse disagreement over methodology with a complete lack of breeding ethics.

Those novice breeders will either get out of Ameraucanas in a few years when their poor quality birds don't win at shows or don't sell enough to pay the feed bills.  That commercial hatchery will only ramp up production as the demand for Ameraucanas grow - as it is now.

I do not think Cackles is setting a good example for other hatcheries to follow. I do think they are setting a precedent that will be regrettable in the future.

I guess with your concern, any hatchery that does has them is bad for the breed.

I think you can compare them. Its not like they have hundreds and hundreds of breeders. Thats why they sale them 3x as much as other breeds. Plus availability is only limited.

I dont care if people interbreed the varieties, I just state that you dont get consistent offspring which is a fair assessment.

I see is a good thing. They're no different say then Whitemore Farms or Billy Bob backyard breeder who breeds in mass quantity.

Susan Mouw

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Re: Breeder selling to hatchery?
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2016, 09:33:29 AM »

I guess with your concern, any hatchery that does has them is bad for the breed.

I think you can compare them. Its not like they have hundreds and hundreds of breeders. Thats why they sale them 3x as much as other breeds. Plus availability is only limited.

I dont care if people interbreed the varieties, I just state that you dont get consistent offspring which is a fair assessment.

I see is a good thing. They're no different say then Whitemore Farms or Billy Bob backyard breeder who breeds in mass quantity.

I don't see any hatchery marketing true Ameraucanas as a good thing, but I guess it is inevitable - for the very reason I stated above. They are popular and they sell. As a business decision, I see the purpose and motive behind that.

I am, frankly, surprised that a 'founder' of the breed would be promoting that. I don't see it as in the best interest of the breed.
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Dan Pitts

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Re: Breeder selling to hatchery?
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2016, 11:23:29 AM »
I dont care, or see it as a big deal. Its sets a good precedent for other hatcheries to follow. Id rather have hatcheries sell "bad" true Ameraucanas than EE's labeled as Ameraucanas.

Also we cant lump all hatcheries together. Cackle has been calling their EEs correctly even before they got their Ameraucana stock, so i can respect that. They did start with a reputable breeder. What ive heard is the owner of cackle brings in quality birds to improve their stock when its needed. Besides that, what they are doing is no different than what every "BBS" novice breeder is doing now. Which is breed everything they got initially together without a plan. I see it on Facebook all the time.

Luckily they're selling blacks, I dont think you can muck up the color, only type haha. They use to sell blues and I still know breeders who have the blues that originated from them and from what I was told they were really good "typed" blues.

Only time will tell.
And this is the debate on the other forum as well. I see points on both sides, and I am so new to this that I don't have a really valid argument for either side. I love to see the hatcheries distinguish EEs from AMs, but I also think the market will be flooded with sub-par birds. My guess is that eventually there will be hatchery quality and breeder quality, it's like that with most other breeds anyway, and most people buying from hatcheries won't care. I didn't know a thing about SOP until joining BYC and learning. That's what made me seek out Paul's birds to replace my EEs. I think people that want backyard layers for a pretty egg carton will buy from hatcheries, and those that learn and want more SOP birds will seek out breeders. That's exactly what happened with me. If the concern is how it will affect sales for breeders, I think it will drive the price up. After my fiasco with the BCM, I would have paid much more for Paul's birds than what he charges. Thankfully, he is a very nice man who enjoys helping people, and isn't greedy.
I saw the SLW brought up as well. A friend of mine just went through the exact same thing with those as I did with the BCM. He started with hatchery stock, learned about SOP, and replaced them with birds from Foley. He paid a fortune for an adult trio, but the difference is incredible. When the inevitable happens, and these birds are mass produced, I think it will be a good thing for the breeders and those that want to learn
« Last Edit: February 11, 2016, 11:26:46 AM by Dan Pitts »

Susan Mouw

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Re: Breeder selling to hatchery?
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2016, 12:25:35 PM »
At this point, I guess there is no use crying over spilt milk.  What has been done is done. (how's that for mixed metaphors?  lol)

I'm just going to keep doing what I'm doing...
Susan Mouw
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