Author Topic: Purple sheen on black cockerel  (Read 10760 times)

Kelsey Marinelli

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Purple sheen on black cockerel
« on: May 06, 2016, 09:08:47 AM »
Hi everyone,

I have a black cockerel that I am really happy with. However, he has purple sheen in addition to the green. As well as a lighter eye color then I would like. I have a beautiful black pullet that I am thinking of pairing with him - she has no purple. I am wondering your thought on using him- is the purple something that will carry to the chicks if the female shows no signs, and if so, any idea of the %? What is you experience with this? Should I just cull him or can I work this?

"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right" - Henry Ford

Birdcrazy

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Re: Purple sheen on black cockerel
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2016, 05:10:49 PM »
Kelsey, I don't have any answers on what happens if you use the cockerel in question for your breeding program. I can only tell you my experience with how I handled the very same situation. Quite a few years ago I had the same situation where a few of my breeders showed the purple sheen (some with no green sheen at all). At the time I was not showing but beginning to improve my stock in my breeding program. I read articles and talked to other breeders that were showing at the time and the conclusion was always the same. A good green sheen, not purple was what you wanted on your show birds.
 
I treated this as a defect and went through all of my breeding stock and culled all that showed any evidence of purple, no matter of confirmation and close to standard of perfection. I know some of the hens I kept that did not show purple probably had it in their background somewhere. I only used cocks and cockerels that had extreme green sheen. It only took me a couple more years of culling and that was the end of the purple sheen. It has been years since I have had a bird with a purple sheen.

I know sometimes it is hard to cull and sometimes you have to go with the best you have. If this is the only choice you have for a good sire bird, my suggestion is use him but keep good records on the offspring so if it becomes a problem, you have a direction to begin culling.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2016, 09:26:01 PM by Birdcrazy »
Gordon Gilliam

DeWayne Edgin

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Re: Purple sheen on black cockerel
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2016, 08:35:31 PM »
Here is my thoughts but this is just my opinion. Since he is a Black Ameraucana, i would cull him. If he was a variety that is hard to find then i may try to work with him. But that purple will cary on to his chicks. I just talked to a long time member about this last Sunday while he was at my house looking over my birds. Gordan is right that it will take years of culling to get this out of your flock. But there are more Black Ameraucanas around than any other varietey so it shouldn`t be that hard to finda good Black Rooster. Something about this Roosters back doesn`t look right to me either. My birds backs have a more gradual rise at the base of their tail. It may just be the way he stands in the pictures also and you can`t tell by a picture how he will carry himself when he is walking. Some of the long time breeders should give their thoughts here soon so maybe they can offer their advice.  :)

Don

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Re: Purple sheen on black cockerel
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2016, 12:01:54 AM »
Kelsey,  as DeWayne and Gordon mention, you could get a new line or cull this bird if you have those options at this time.  It is late in the season this year.  Do you have anyone close by that has an extra male, maybe one from the same basic family?  When you cross lines you may have other issues such as color leakage expressed in the males.  Good reason to keep good records for your hatches as suggested.

I would start if you can by finding out as much as you can about the parents of your birds.  Are the young birds you have related or at least out of the same line?  Does that breeder have a problem with the purple in many of their birds or do they have mostly beetle green sheen?  What are your females like in color?  Jeffery reported that some that believe that you can balance the color by breeding to a dull colored female.  Some Old English folks used to say that purple could come from feeding corn.  There are a lot of ideas about color issues and purple sheen is a problem in many black varieties. Also some think that is not just the color of the feather but the structure of the feather that creates the purple color.       

Which other Black AM breeders have experience with this issue?   
« Last Edit: May 07, 2016, 11:10:04 AM by Don »
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DeWayne Edgin

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Re: Purple sheen on black cockerel
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2016, 01:30:46 PM »
Here are a couple pictures of my Cocks. The Wheaten has a little better tail angle than the Black. In my opinion.

Kelsey Marinelli

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Re: Purple sheen on black cockerel
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2016, 05:35:15 PM »
It's a tough decision because he is my only black rooster at this time. :-\ I culled out all the others I had for various reasons. I do not have specifics on the coloring or line that he came from unfortunately. The females I have are a nice black with green but it is not bright like on Dewaynes.

I have two new blue roosters that I bought from a breeder that purchased Paul smith birds and had extras but I don't want to breed different varieties together. Especially since I am just starting out. I think I will hold off on the blacks for now and wait to see how these blues develop.

I don't want to breed him just because he is my only black. As much as I would love to hatch some of my own for the first time - it's more important to me to do it right. Hopefully by the mid/end of summer I can have another coop up and I can purchase a new line of birds after that.

Thank you all for taking the time to advise!


"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right" - Henry Ford

DeWayne Edgin

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Re: Purple sheen on black cockerel
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2016, 09:30:59 PM »
You can use a Blue Rooster on your Black hens. You will get 50% Blue and 50% Black chicks. Then you can use one of your Black chicks ( cockerel ) that you hatched, over your Black hens the following year. It will also buy you lots of time to find a new Black or two.

DeWayne Edgin

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Re: Purple sheen on black cockerel
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2016, 09:38:39 PM »
I forgot to mention that you can line breed chicks to their parents but it is not good to breed sibblings together. I breed parents sometimes to their young ones but i only do it once then i get a different non related bird to use. The main reason i do it once in awhile is to get better egg color or to keep feather quality in my line. For example, i have done this with my Buffs to get the nice Buff color down to the skin. After my birds started coming out good, i brought in non related birds that had the nice color to breed in. Now i get good feather color and good egg color.

Lee G

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Re: Purple sheen on black cockerel
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2016, 08:42:42 AM »
Taken from my notes about breeding blacks...not sure who to credit, as it's quite old.

"Purple sheen is caused by too much black melanizer. Flat black is caused by too little black melanizers. The green sheen is caused by the correct amount. The black melanizers or enhancers are the genes that complete the colour black. It's basically a balancing act as far as breeding for it. A dull or flat black bird crossed to a purple or plum hue bird will usually produce good green sheen. Green sheen is not terribly difficult to produce one you establish it in your line."

I've never had a plum hue black, but I have had dull blacks, and can confirm when bred to the right mate, the offspring all had nice, green sheen. This was with gold based birds, not sure if a silver base would change that or not.

Personally, if you have the space and feed, I would pair him with your best black hen with good, green sheen and your best dull black hen, and see what can be learned from the offspring. I know I've said this before, but I truly believe our birds are the best teachers. There are no breeding mistakes, only lessons and experience to be gained. ;) Good luck with your hatching! :)
~ The duty of the breeder today and tomorrow is to create rather than imitate or simply perpetuate -- Horace Dryden

Cesar “CJ”

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Re: Purple sheen on black cockerel
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2016, 03:20:50 PM »
I forgot to mention that you can line breed chicks to their parents but it is not good to breed sibblings together. I breed parents sometimes to their young ones but i only do it once then i get a different non related bird to use. The main reason i do it once in awhile is to get better egg color or to keep feather quality in my line. For example, i have done this with my Buffs to get the nice Buff color down to the skin. After my birds started coming out good, i brought in non related birds that had the nice color to breed in. Now i get good feather color and good egg color.

I dissagree with you DeWayne. You can breed siblings together but, but remember that positive and negative traits will be enhanced more with siblings. When breeding siblings its find two siblings that will enhance each other's positive attributes. hatching more than usual would be prefer so you can cull hard for that offspring that has all the positive traits.

Temple DaSilva

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Re: Purple sheen on black cockerel
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2016, 11:14:54 AM »
I know I've said this before, but I truly believe our birds are the best teachers. There are no breeding mistakes, only lessons and experience to be gained. ;) Good luck with your hatching! :)

Love this, Lee! Thank you for sharing it!

-Temple in CT

Lee G

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Re: Purple sheen on black cockerel
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2016, 10:19:10 AM »
I know I've said this before, but I truly believe our birds are the best teachers. There are no breeding mistakes, only lessons and experience to be gained. ;) Good luck with your hatching! :)

Love this, Lee! Thank you for sharing it!

-Temple in CT

 :)
~ The duty of the breeder today and tomorrow is to create rather than imitate or simply perpetuate -- Horace Dryden

Lavender Sullivan

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Re: Purple sheen on black cockerel
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2016, 08:14:50 AM »
more gradual rise at the base of their tail. It may just be the way he stands in the pictures also and you can`t tell by a picture how he will carry himself when he is walking.

Hello. I am new to the Ameraucana breed and I'm trying to learn as much as I can before my Ameraucanas start laying. I have a couple wheaten/blue wheatens, and a handful of blacks. At what age should I evaluate a bird's pose/tail angle/back slope? Would it be helpful in evaluating a bird if someone saw a video of him/her walking, along with some still shots?
Also, I know that a pullets first eggs will be irregular, but how old should the pullets be before I hatch their eggs?

Cesar “CJ”

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Re: Purple sheen on black cockerel
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2016, 07:22:38 PM »
more gradual rise at the base of their tail. It may just be the way he stands in the pictures also and you can`t tell by a picture how he will carry himself when he is walking.

Hello. I am new to the Ameraucana breed and I'm trying to learn as much as I can before my Ameraucanas start laying. I have a couple wheaten/blue wheatens, and a handful of blacks. At what age should I evaluate a bird's pose/tail angle/back slope? Would it be helpful in evaluating a bird if someone saw a video of him/her walking, along with some still shots?
Also, I know that a pullets first eggs will be irregular, but how old should the pullets be before I hatch their eggs?


Females you can tell by around 5-6 months, and males take longer I like to evaluate mine around 7-9 months. As for the eggs as long as they're a medium-large size you should be fine.

Don

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Re: Purple sheen on black cockerel
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2016, 07:23:03 AM »
Lavender, I agree, They need to be well on their way to maturity before you make final decisions about type.  And it takes a long time for the males especially.  Regarding the eggs, you can start putting them in the incubator when you decide which stock to use as breeders.  Even though eggs may be small they should produce viable chicks as long as the parents are good in health and on a good ration. 
Don Cash
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