Author Topic: Cross beak - genetic, environment...what?  (Read 12667 times)

Susan Mouw

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Cross beak - genetic, environment...what?
« on: May 17, 2016, 06:31:40 PM »
I have experienced a strange situation this year.  I shipped some chicks, a mix of wheaten/blue wheaten and black to a very nice lady earlier this year.  About three weeks after receiving the chicks, she sent me a picture of one with a mild cross-beak.  I offered to refund her for that chick, but she didn't want that - she just wanted me to know.  I appreciated that.

Of course, that made me go back through all my chicks - both from that hatch and from earlier and later hatches - to see if I had any other cross-beaks that I had missed.  Not a one.  I haven't been contacted by any other buyers about cross beak and I have about 100 chicks that I've kept for myself - no cross beak anywhere.

Fast forward a couple of weeks and this same person wrote to tell me another chick has developed cross beak. I immediately refunded her for two chicks.

I have chicks that came out of that same hatch and are the same age and I have older chicks from earlier hatches, as well as younger chicks from hatches since and I still don't see a single cross beak.

Everything I've read about cross-beak seems to point to genetics, with some possibility of temperature spikes causing cross-beak.  But, in either case (temperature or genetics), with over 100 chicks here, plus the other 400 I've hatched and sold - wouldn't I be seeing it more?

Thankfully, those chicks were marked and they both come from the same pen, so I can eliminate the possibilities of where it is coming from, if genetic.

Have any of you had this happen or can offer insight as to possible causes, solutions?
Susan Mouw
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DeWayne Edgin

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Re: Cross beak - genetic, environment...what?
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2016, 10:10:55 PM »
I was told by a breeder that it was genetics. A different breeder told me it was from temps. Yet another totally different breeder told me it was from the chick having trouble hatching and it caused their beak to form like that. So i guess i don`t know lol.

My guess is that it could be a mixture of these things. But.. this thread got me thinking on this more. Maybe since your chicks that was shipped got this and the ones you kept, could maybe be because the chicks still have a soft beak from just hatching and they pecked the box looking for food and caused damage. I don`t know but it can be reason i guess. But if you shipped out a lot to others and they didn`t get it, then that theroy is probably no good lol. Was the state you shipped to warmer or a lot colder that SC? Maybe even the feed the lady fed wasn`t mixed up like it should. I asked many people this question before and i never got the same answer so i don`t think it was ever proven. Maybe i can call Penn State here in PA and get a new theroy lol. I have their number and was fixing on calling the one lady there about a problem with my Brown Red rooster anyway.  ;)

Susan Mouw

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Re: Cross beak - genetic, environment...what?
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2016, 08:24:26 AM »
Yep, I've gotten the same kind of response and even researching it on the internet has not led to a definite conclusion. 

I doubt it was soft beaks, though.  My hatch date is Monday, but I ship on Tuesday.  Most of my chicks are usually hatched out by Monday morning, so their beaks should be pretty solid by Tuesday afternoon.  And, like you said, if it were that, it seems I would have had it happen on other shipments.  Plus, I ship a cup of gelatin mixed with chick feed in a cup taped to one end (opposite end of the heat pack), so they have food and moisture for the trip.

The suspected hen is being culled, anyway - for other reasons, as is that cockbird, but I'd sure like to know more.  If you're going to call PA anyway - would you mind asking about it?

Thanks
Susan Mouw
Sand Castles Farm
http://www.sandcastlesfarm.com

Don

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Re: Cross beak - genetic, environment...what?
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2016, 09:01:09 AM »
I know that the answers are not so definitive, such is life.  I have always thought that it was an incubator issue.  But it is strange when they develop more as they grow out in the pens.  But if it is definitely a result of a certain mating, it means to me that the genes of that pair are more prone to have that weakness.  I think you are right to separate that pair and cull whatever other traits you may see needed.  But how many of the clutch mates are doing well from that pairing?  That is what is hard to understand. 
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Susan Mouw

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Re: Cross beak - genetic, environment...what?
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2016, 12:11:25 PM »
I know that the answers are not so definitive, such is life.  I have always thought that it was an incubator issue.  But it is strange when they develop more as they grow out in the pens.  But if it is definitely a result of a certain mating, it means to me that the genes of that pair are more prone to have that weakness.  I think you are right to separate that pair and cull whatever other traits you may see needed.  But how many of the clutch mates are doing well from that pairing?  That is what is hard to understand.

Well, I hatched a total of 65 birds from that pen - two hens and one rooster, and so far, these two are the only ones I know about that have cross-beak.  I have about 20 of those 65 here and none of those have it.  Both of those would have come from the same hen, as I was able to distinguish which hen was laying which egg in that pen and I wasn't shipping chicks from the other hen, due to some unsatisfactory color issues.

Let's just say that pen has been a disappointment for this year.  Thankfully, the chicks from my other wheaten pen look good.
Susan Mouw
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Birdcrazy

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Re: Cross beak - genetic, environment...what?
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2016, 02:06:39 PM »

Let's just say that pen has been a disappointment for this year.  Thankfully, the chicks from my other wheaten pen look good.

Susan, Over the years I have had a few (probably less than 10 out of thousands hatched that developed cross beaks. Some at 3-4 weeks of age and others later in the growing out cycle). I have done research also with no distinctive conclusion. Theories anywhere from incubation, genetics, food source etc. From your statement above you jogged my memory. The vast majority of the few cross beaks that I raised were from my Wheaten/Blue Wheaten pens. I really don't remember any from my BBS pens. That would lead me to suspect a genetic issue. Just my 2 cents worth if it is worth that.
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HarryS

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Re: Cross beak - genetic, environment...what?
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2016, 03:00:31 PM »
I have found that cross beaks are genetic.  It only happens in certain strains.  I have also found that when bantam blood was added it is more evident.  Had two different pens of a certain color hatch at the same time since I had them separated for several hatches only the one strain hatched with cross beaks and the other stain had none.  I recommend to cull the ones that produce it.  I have not seen it to happening from incubation although if you only get one it may be possible but to have several and you hatch different strains and only one strain has this defect it is most likely the strain.  You can breed it out if you wish to take on the effort of test mating but I only recommend it if you are testing a small amount of birds otherwise you will be test mating for the whole hatching season.
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Susan Mouw

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Re: Cross beak - genetic, environment...what?
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2016, 04:57:19 PM »
Anyone in the market for a nice laying, 1 y/o laying EE hen? lol
Susan Mouw
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DeWayne Edgin

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Re: Cross beak - genetic, environment...what?
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2016, 10:14:31 PM »
I have all 8 varieties of Large fowl plus self blue and i have had atleast one cross beak chick in every varietey except for self blue. I have only had 1 from Whites and Brown Reds but i had more from Wheatens. This year my Silvers threw 3 of them and i never had it in my Silvers before. I don`t think it is a varietey issue in my observation. My Silvers were all hatched from my own line with no outside blood brought in and i never had a Silver with it till this year. I guess i should just call and get Penn States opinion on this. I need to get time to call before the lady leaves for the day.  :)

HarryS

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Re: Cross beak - genetic, environment...what?
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2016, 11:06:43 PM »
The cross beak is a recessive gene and can show up any time over many years.  You need both parents to donate the gene for the chick to have it. 
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Susan Mouw

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Re: Cross beak - genetic, environment...what?
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2016, 08:23:03 AM »
Yes, that cockbird is headed for freezer camp and someone is coming to get the hen tomorrow for a backyard layer.
Susan Mouw
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Lee G

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Re: Cross beak - genetic, environment...what?
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2016, 09:26:22 AM »
I agree with Harry, some strains are more prone to the deformity than others. Cross beak is an immediate cull for me. But interestingly enough, and according to one of my genetic books, it is a hard trait/defect to pin point inheritance, and wholly complex. Yes, it can be caused by too high of temperature during incubation, and even brought about by the environment. (Epigenetic's at play perhaps?) It’s also thought to be genetic, and recessive, and linked to the mb gene when homozygous. (Which explains why Ameraucanas seem more susceptible than other non bearded breeds, although it appears in all fowl.) But here’s the catch; both Hutt and Landauer found it was not possible to breed pure breeding cross beaked birds, even after heavily inbreeding for multiple generations. Birds thought to be impure for cross beak, produced cross beak offspring. Birds thought to be pure for cross beak, produced offspring with normal beaks. My book calls it ‘an extremity on multifactorial basis with incomplete penetrance.’  :o Alrighty then. I’ll stick to calling it an immediate cull on an individual basis, but won’t cull an entire family line because of it.

Good food for thought here.  :)
~ The duty of the breeder today and tomorrow is to create rather than imitate or simply perpetuate -- Horace Dryden

Lee G

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Re: Cross beak - genetic, environment...what?
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2016, 09:34:36 AM »
One way I use to id (and cull) chicks that could be potential cross beaks can be done right from hatch, though I like to give them 24 hrs to fluff up, and shed the egg tooth. While holding the chick firmly in hand, tip its' head back and look closely at the top and bottom mandibles from the underside; they should be even on both sides, and fit together perfectly, as well as be nice and straight. Any kind of deviation from this, like showing more beak on one side than the other, or any kind of curve, etc, could be a potential cross beak cull within a few weeks…hope this helps others save a bit on feed and space. ;)
~ The duty of the breeder today and tomorrow is to create rather than imitate or simply perpetuate -- Horace Dryden

Susan Mouw

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Re: Cross beak - genetic, environment...what?
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2016, 12:52:52 PM »
One way I use to id (and cull) chicks that could be potential cross beaks can be done right from hatch, though I like to give them 24 hrs to fluff up, and shed the egg tooth. While holding the chick firmly in hand, tip its' head back and look closely at the top and bottom mandibles from the underside; they should be even on both sides, and fit together perfectly, as well as be nice and straight. Any kind of deviation from this, like showing more beak on one side than the other, or any kind of curve, etc, could be a potential cross beak cull within a few weeks…hope this helps others save a bit on feed and space. ;)

Incomplete penetrance?  Well, that would explain a lot - such as why one bird shows it at hatch and another takes 3 weeks for it to show. It would also explain the varying degrees of it.  At least it is thought to be recessive.  We have an inherited disorder in Labrador Retrievers, called Tricuspid Valve Dysplasia, that is, at least theoretically, autosomal dominant with incomplete penetrance.  The dominance mean that it is very hard to breed around, and incomplete penetrance means that some dogs can carry the gene(s) for TVD, without displaying any symptoms, yet pass it on to their offspring - and it only takes one parent to carry it.

At least with the recessive, it takes two.

Afterthought - if anyone needs help getting to sleep one night, try reading my article on the Genetics of TVD. http://www.ameraucana.org/docs/Genetics%20of%20TVD.pdf This was published, in a serialized format, in the Labrador Quarterly - either last year or year before - I can't remember now. Worked better than sominex, so I'm told.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2016, 07:12:18 AM by Susan Mouw »
Susan Mouw
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Lee G

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Re: Cross beak - genetic, environment...what?
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2016, 08:48:36 AM »
But wouldn't dominance mean it'd be easier to breed around in poultry? Because a dominant gene can't help but express itself, and than you at least know what you're dealing with. Where as recessive genes can hide for generations, and pop out of the wood work when you pair certain birds/families and least expect it. A good reminder why test mating is so important though. Mammals are very different than avians, wow... My brain was not ready to look over that paper this morning Susan. lol Need more java, maybe more brain.  ::) haha


Oh, and I just confirmed my first (and hopefully last, knock on wood) cross beak chick this year. It was a blue from a batch of 30. All the rest look good, and still do, but sadly this little one was unlucky from the get go. :( Unfortunately I didn't think to take any head pics at hatch, but here is the chick at 10 days old with what has become obvious cross beak. I marked it as a potential cross beak from hatch, and grew it out until I could be sure.



~ The duty of the breeder today and tomorrow is to create rather than imitate or simply perpetuate -- Horace Dryden