Author Topic: New with questions  (Read 7491 times)

John Scruggs

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New with questions
« on: June 13, 2016, 10:30:34 AM »
Good morning!  I am new to the breed and recently purchased hatching eggs from Mrs. Mouw.  I am working with the 4H agents in our area here in middle Georgia and we are starting a poultry program for the kids.  All the kids this year, bought copper marans chicks to show this fall and next year because that is what we had available at the time before school was out.  However, I am planning to get them to change to Ameraucanas next year for a few different reasons.  This year we had about 25 kids and they each got two chicks to take home and raise/handle over the summer. 

My plan is to have a small breeding flock of quality birds.  I will collect their eggs and we will hatch them in class next spring, and the kids will take the chicks home to raise and show. 

All that being said, here is my dilemma.  I have a very nice, concrete floor, covered metal roof pen that is 10 x 10.  I have 7 black chicks and 10 wheatens chicks, some of which are showing blue wheatens coloration.  I'm thinking with a pen this size, I need to keep whatever turns out to be my best cockerel and 4-5 of the best pullets for breeding stock.  I am leaning heavily toward the wheatens because they seem to be the most calm and I have a few more of them for selection purposes.  After a few months of grow out, I will probably find an interested kid and give them the best of the blacks.  The rest I will just sell as easter eggers. If there are undesirable characteristics that are already visible, (mine are 5 1/2 weeks old and I am transitioning them to the outside pen this afternoon as it has been and looks to continue to be very hot here in Georgia) I can start thinning the flock now.  Can someone post some picture of what I should be looking for as cull/selection characteristics in the wheatens?   Ie. pictures of what to look for, and explanations of good and bad traits.  Thank you!

Don

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Re: New with questions
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2016, 10:45:37 AM »
John,   Glad that you are interested in Ameraucanas, and thank you for working with the 4H program to help youngsters with an interest in animal husbandry.  It sounds like you have a great place to start the young chickens grow outs.  I know of several folks that use concrete floors for safety reasons and ease of cleaning.  You might want to have some litter on top of this floor to allow easier cleaning and allow the chickens something to scratch thru as well.  Paul uses hay and lots of others use shavings.  And as soon as possible you can install a dusting box with sand, wood ashes and the some other various dry materials.  They will start to enjoy this really early. 

You can see some threads here where folks have started to document what the different colors look like as they go thru various stages of feathering.  In my opinion its going to be difficult to cull at this early stage of growth.  You can watch for any weaknesses in beak structure or crooked toes, slow growth or slow feathering and see how they develop in the next months.  But the final color especially in the wheaten varieties is difficult to determine until they have more of their adult feathering.  You might ask Susan what she has noticed in her lines and how to watch for those issues.  But I would think that you have plenty of space and encourage you not to sell anything too early.  I hope you don't lose any youngsters along the way.  But its always good to have an extra or two just in case of problems or if you find any issues later stages of grow out.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2016, 10:53:56 AM by Don »
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John Scruggs

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Re: New with questions
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2016, 10:51:30 AM »
Thank you!  Yes, I have/will use hay for bedding on top of the concrete.  I remember Susan telling me things about culling for dark feathering on their backs but there was so much information she gave me that day I just can't remember all the details.  I will hold them all a while then until they are fully feathered and more mature.  I will also get a dust bath going for them.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2016, 11:00:14 AM by John Scruggs »

Birdcrazy

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Re: New with questions
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2016, 01:17:25 PM »

  In my opinion its going to be difficult to cull at this early stage of growth.  You can watch for any weaknesses in beak structure or crooked toes, slow growth or slow feathering and see how they develop in the next months.  But the final color especially in the wheaten varieties is difficult to determine until they have more of their adult feathering.

I agree with Don. Wheaten and Blue Wheaten seem to take longer to develop their full plumage color to see what you will end up in final results. As he stated you can cull early for obvious defects, but I usually wait until 6-8 months to start culling on conformation and color. I sometimes will cull for color earlier on Blue Wheatens on the shade of Blue in their chests, but will wait on later determination on coloration. You will see by the Blacks that you can begin to cull much sooner on these areas. Thanks again for working with the youth in your area!
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Susan Mouw

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Re: New with questions
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2016, 03:05:06 PM »
Hi John

As both Don and Gordon have stated, it is difficult to evaluate the wheaten and blue wheatens early.  They go through so many changes, especially the cockerels, from hatch to a year old, I've pretty much decided to hang onto whatever doesn't have obvious faults (porcelain in the ear lobes, duck foot, scissor beak) until they are at least 9-10 months old.

The black in the hackles is one thing I look for, but it is one of the last things I look for in cockerels.  In pullets, however, if they've got black in their hackles at 3 months, they will have black in their hackles as adults.  I will cull for that early on and sell the chicks or started birds as backyard layers.

Other than that, it is very difficult to know how a wheaten or blue wheaten chick is going to color out as an adult.  If you have the room, I'd recommend holding on to all the wheatens and blue wheatens you have (you can cross breed those, btw) until at least this fall and re-evaluate then.  Feel free to post pictures here for critiques, as well.

You're right about the temperament of the wheatens vs the blacks.  I've learned to raise my blacks with my wheatens so they pick up some of their calm, friendly manner.  It's worked pretty well, so far  - while my young black grow-outs are not as curious (or as quick to jump in my lap) as the wheatens, they are not near as flighty as the ones that weren't raised with wheatens.  Wheatens and blue wheatens are two of the more challenging varieties in the Ameraucanas, but that temperament keeps me going with them.
Susan Mouw
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Don

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Re: New with questions
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2016, 04:55:00 PM »
That's one of the things I like about the Wheaten lines is disposition.  I have had only one male that will challenge me when I go into the pen so far, knock on wood.  And he will not be around long. 

But that reminds me that I kept him because he was the next best Wheaten male that I had.  And it really pays to keep an extra.  You don't realize how many times your best male will get sick, be infertile or suddenly die at the beginning of breeding season.  The second string is not as good, but it sure bets nothing at that point in time.  So If you find birds that have serious faults like enamel or cross beak, certainly cull them and sell them as EEs or backyard layers.  But if you have more good birds than you need, pick out the best for your breeding flock.  And maybe find a someone close by that wants some good family AMs to use as layers.  If push comes to shove in the middle of breeding season you can borrow a male or at least get some help with out having to drive several hundred miles away for replacement stock.  Even if you know a breeder in the next state, the likelihood that they will have an extra male is pretty slim at that point in the season.
 
BTW I mentioned crooked toes earlier.  I only use that to cull between two really good almost equal birds for breeding.  I am sure some here will disagree.  But I think a lot of crooked toes are accidental.  If you find a number of them in a hatch of a specific mating then I would take it a whole lot more serious.  But If I have a super nice Wheaten male will golden hackles and nice type and a crooked toe, then I would choose him over the second best male.  But I would watch my hatches for straight toes for sure.       
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DeWayne Edgin

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Re: New with questions
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2016, 10:42:43 PM »
My kids are in 4H here in PA but we can`t show chickens! I wish we could. Our local fair stopped showing chickens in the mid 80s also.  :(

John Scruggs

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Re: New with questions
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2016, 08:21:35 AM »
Fortunately, I didn't have a single chick with crooked toes.  Some of my EE chicks did and some of the copper marans that we hatched out earlier in the year did.  The marans took 22 days to hatch and Susan's Ameraucana's eggs only took 20.  I wonder if there is a correlation between late hatches and crooked toes?

Don

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Re: New with questions
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2016, 08:43:22 AM »
John,   I wonder if a lot of crooked toe and some of the other issues that we see aren't caused by incubators in one way or another.  Clif mentioned in another post that he had much better luck with natural incubation by broody hens.  What kind of incubator do you have and what time of year were the two hatches, Marans and EEs compared to the AMs?
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John Scruggs

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Re: New with questions
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2016, 08:57:47 AM »
The EE hatched February 19th in someone else's cabinet incubator. 

I bought a Hovabator Genesis and hatched the marans in March, and April respectively.  The incubator was kept at 99.5 and I dry hatched those until lockdown.  Humidity stayed about 30-35% as I was instructed, but I had a very low hatch rate at about 45% and they took 22 days to hatch. 

The Ameraucana's hatched May 20/21st out of the same Hovabator Genesis.  One thing I did do with the Ameraucanas was decrease the heat to 99 and kept the humidity between 40-45% until lockdown.  I had 90% hatch rate on day 20.  Another thing I did differently with these was that I placed the eggs in a plastic crate at lockdown to prevent the hatching chicks from rolling the unhatched eggs all over the floor.  I was a little skeptical at first, but after seeing it in action, I don't think I will ever hatch without the crate again.

Don

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Re: New with questions
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2016, 09:56:31 AM »
I didn't ask you where the incubator was located but I am going to guess inside your home.  The ambient humidity is very low during the winter time and gradually increases to a balmy relative humidity here in the spring and summer months.  So we have to work really hard at getting enough humidity in the incubator at hatch time early in the year.  Not so much as the weather begins to change.  I've known some breeders who were able to keep their incubators in a closed basement that had much better control of their humidity all year round. 
It could also be that the thermostat in the unit is adjusting slightly with some usage too.  This might have caused some of the time difference in hatching periods.  But I don't know anything about the marans and there might be some here who have had experience with them.  Maybe they will chime in and say if they have had different hatching times for their flocks.  But I do also wonder if the lower humidity and the longer periods to hatch might have caused some toe issues. 

BTW, I have had the worst hatches when the eggs rolled loose in the trays.  The new hatchlings seem to cause havoc on the eggs trying to pip.  IMO, Anything that will hold the eggs stable in the trays is a good idea.  And I've even seen them hatch well standing vertical in the incubation trays. 
Don Cash
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John Scruggs

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Re: New with questions
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2016, 10:24:31 AM »
We have a split level house with a 'down stairs' room.  This is where I keep my incubator.  It has it's own heat/air so I am able to control the ambient temperature quite well down there...humidity, not so much.  I was advised to dry hatch the marans by several breeders who told me that their eggs have a difficult time losing moisture.  As I will be only raising Ameraucana's from here out, I suppose the marans issues will remain a mystery to me.  My Ameraucana eggs were actually standing up vertically in the egg trays.  I am thrilled with 17/19 hatching so it worked great IMO.  All were strong, healthy chicks...or maybe Susan just has a genetically superior gene pool?   :D

Ernie Haire

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Re: New with questions
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2016, 10:38:39 AM »
We have been breeding and exhibiting Marans for several years. They are hard to hatch. We hatch our Marans eggs dry. We try to keep our incubators at about 30-35% humidity and we can do that in this area with little to no water in the incubator. We keep an eye on our air cells throughout the incubation process. Because the shells are so thick, they are slow to evaporate. We like for our air cells to be at 20-25% at 18 days. If they are not there, we leave them in the incubator for an extra day or two. We keep the humidity in our hatcher to about 60% when we move eggs into it. Once the eggs start to hatch, the humidity will raise to up to about 70% due to the moisture from the chicks. Once they dry, the humidity goes back down.

When we started hatching Ameraucanas, I think that we tried to hatch them too dry and shrink wrapped many chicks.  We have hatched eggs laying down and standing up with no problem. I agree that they seem to hatch better if they are not being rolled around by chicks while pipping.

I teach Agricultural Science in Texas and feel that chickens make great projects for students who have limited space or residential restrictions. My students can show their projects are the Open Shows whenever they want. We are blessed that we have two Major Shows that our students can compete in. We have the State Fair of Texas in the fall and the Ft. Worth Livestock Show in the spring. I appreciate all of the people who work so hard to keep these shows running smoothly. The experiences that my students gain from being able to travel and compete in these shows is great. Not only do they get to compete, but they get to meet new people, be exposed to different breeds, learn from other exhibitors, and usually come home with new birds and/or eggs.

The people involved in the Exhibition Poultry world are great to share information and experiences with all of my students. There are many of them who have helped my students add to their breeding programs by supplying them with chicks, chickens, and eggs. I always appreciate the breeders who ask me if we have space to get the critters home before giving them to the students. We have traveled for hours with kids holding chickens in their laps. I finally wised up and started hauling empty containers to all of the shows.

Be Blessed,
Ernie Haire
Poultry 2XL
Arp, Texas


Don

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Re: New with questions
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2016, 12:24:08 PM »
Ernie, have you had experience with the chicks taking longer to hatch or problems or any ill effects on the chicks, ie crooked toes, because of the thicker shells.
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Andrew Johnson

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Re: New with questions
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2016, 02:09:38 PM »
Our FBCMs are harder to hatch and impossible to candle after the 10th day.I agree with Ernie about the eggs being thicker and it takes longer to evaporate than other eggs. 22 days is our average for Marans. They also seem to take longer to zip on average as well. We switched to performing dry hatches with better success here in Alabama. I only add water at the beginning then again at lockdown. The humidity stays around 30% until lockdown. At that point we fill reservoirs and add a sponge. We keep a syringe with a tube long enough and small enough that will fit thru thru vent hole to add water to the sponge. We keep the humidity above 65%. We have never had any problems with toe issues. But I'm sure my number of chicks I've hatched doesn't compare to most here. Once we started hatching Ams our stress levels were almost nonexistent, almost.