Author Topic: Self Blues, Recessive Whites, and Blacks  (Read 8045 times)

Jen Mitchell

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Self Blues, Recessive Whites, and Blacks
« on: December 30, 2016, 04:43:08 AM »
I would much appreciate some opinions on what may or may not be worth working with in these birds... I had been working in the past with an old line and while I occasionally pulled out a nice one here and there, I finally decided to cull due to issues I just couldn't clear out... I got an opportunity at a group of self blues from a breeder and grew those out this summer, while on the side I had picked up an old self blue cock bird on a whim... I put him over a black split hen and hatched out several of those chicks and grew them out...

After growing out the batch of self blues, I just wasn't happy with them at all... I kept a single pair but have decided I really don't want to use them...

That leaves me with the offspring of the old cock and the young hen... both were carrying recessive white as well and they threw self blues, blacks, whites and some off whites... I culled the off whites, sent the only white cockerel off to someone that wanted him for a project and have these left...

My question is not whether they are show material or even great quality, just if they are worth moving forward with or whether I should relegate them to a pretty EE pen...

Please excuse the dirt and mud, I was trying to wait for clear weather but we keep getting rain, sleet, freeze then thaw, lol...

Thank you for looking...
« Last Edit: December 30, 2016, 05:13:47 AM by Ravynscroft »

Jen Mitchell

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Re: Self Blues, Recessive Whites, and Blacks
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2016, 04:58:37 AM »
Black cockerel
« Last Edit: December 30, 2016, 05:02:22 AM by Ravynscroft »

Jen Mitchell

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Re: Self Blues, Recessive Whites, and Blacks
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2016, 05:01:55 AM »
White pullets
« Last Edit: December 30, 2016, 05:04:28 AM by Ravynscroft »

Jen Mitchell

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Re: Self Blues, Recessive Whites, and Blacks
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2016, 05:12:02 AM »
Black pullets

Don

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Re: Self Blues, Recessive Whites, and Blacks
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2016, 08:33:08 AM »
Jen,  Its hard to get the best pictures and hard to know for sure without seeing them in person.  I like the Self Blue pullets most.  They seem to have a very different body type than the others.  The color looks even, but you can tell more about that in person.  The pictures make the eye color look dark?  I do like the darker leg color.  Make sure that they don't develop too much fluff on the rear and just in general.  They are intended to have a fairly tight feather set.  And select for a good defined three part muff and beard.  Some pics show a tail angle a bit low.  Which male would you use with this female?

I know some breeders that prefer to use Blue to cross into the SB rather than a Black.  They like that the Blues are silver based (S).  Most good black lines carry gold (s).  Self Blues that carry (s) will sometimes show straw colored leakage in the males.  The whites can come out of any variety if both are carriers. 
« Last Edit: December 30, 2016, 08:35:15 AM by Don »
Don Cash
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Susan Mouw

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Re: Self Blues, Recessive Whites, and Blacks
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2016, 09:09:45 PM »
I would much appreciate some opinions on what may or may not be worth working with in these birds... I had been working in the past with an old line and while I occasionally pulled out a nice one here and there, I finally decided to cull due to issues I just couldn't clear out... I got an opportunity at a group of self blues from a breeder and grew those out this summer, while on the side I had picked up an old self blue cock bird on a whim... I put him over a black split hen and hatched out several of those chicks and grew them out...

After growing out the batch of self blues, I just wasn't happy with them at all... I kept a single pair but have decided I really don't want to use them...

That leaves me with the offspring of the old cock and the young hen... both were carrying recessive white as well and they threw self blues, blacks, whites and some off whites... I culled the off whites, sent the only white cockerel off to someone that wanted him for a project and have these left...

My question is not whether they are show material or even great quality, just if they are worth moving forward with or whether I should relegate them to a pretty EE pen...

Please excuse the dirt and mud, I was trying to wait for clear weather but we keep getting rain, sleet, freeze then thaw, lol...

Thank you for looking...

Hi Jen...

I agree with Don - I like the SBs best and there is no doubt they would be competitive at a show!

So..I'll see you at Newnan, right? ;)
Susan Mouw
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Jen Mitchell

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Re: Self Blues, Recessive Whites, and Blacks
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2016, 05:30:02 AM »
Don, thank you for your insight, it is much appreciated... I do like the SB pullets, but when critiquing I am my own worst critic, lol... I almost scrapped my entire pen of Silkies because I didn't think they were very good but I now have a waiting list for...  SB and Black Ameraucanas have been my passion though... thanks to Susan, I have an amazing trio of Blacks to grow from, I just wasn't sure if these SB's were workable or not...

The eyes on the SB's are medium, but a couple have a bit darker at the pupil radiating out... the cockerels eyes are good, the black pullets a slight bit darker than the SB's... one white has light eyes, one dark and one medium... tails are probably a touch low, but most of the pics they were moving... color on the SB's is pretty even... a couple have the thin, dark pseudo barring but not excessively like I have seen on others...

As for the male to use, that's part of my dilemma... I have the pair from the line I don't wish to use, I will call that Line X, just for clarity... then there's the cockerel shown, but he is full brother to the pullets and that turns me off... besides he is a bit narrow and lacking in the chest for my liking... I have the trio of blacks from Susan, another black cockerel from Line X, and lastly I have their sire...

The hen these came from I hatched out of eggs from Jerry Segler, unfortunately I lost her this summer in the heat so these are all I have from her.... the sire is an old cock bird that I did trace back and verify is from eggs hatched out of Harry Shaffer's eggs back in March 2011... I have no complaints whatsoever about either breeder or the birds I acquired, just to be clear... I knew the cock bird carried recessive white, I was surprised the hen did as well, but it did not upset me in any way... if these end up not working out it is of no fault of any but my own and the choices I made.... if they do work out, then they will be a credit to their source...

Anyways, I'm unsure if I should try breeding them back to their sire, try one of the blacks or try something else... I believe I did read something recently about using Blue in SB's, but I hadn't looked into that yet... so I have no idea if that is something I should try or not...

I will post the additional pics of what I have and I apologize for the picture quality... I am working completely off my phone right now and resizing the pics to post loses resolution... and I did find an old pic of the SB cock and will post it for reference to how he used to look as he is now sunbleached horribly...

Jen Mitchell

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Re: Self Blues, Recessive Whites, and Blacks
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2016, 05:33:55 AM »

Hi Jen...

I agree with Don - I like the SBs best and there is no doubt they would be competitive at a show!

So..I'll see you at Newnan, right? ;)

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Susan... I am lacking in that department, lol...

Jen Mitchell

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Re: Self Blues, Recessive Whites, and Blacks
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2016, 05:37:00 AM »
Line X... the SB's I don't want to use because I did not like how they looked growing out at all... and still not quite happy with the 2 left... the black was fine growing out though...

Jen Mitchell

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Re: Self Blues, Recessive Whites, and Blacks
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2016, 05:39:07 AM »
Old SB cock bird, sire to the SB pullets, whites and blacks... top pic is him currently, bottom is when he was about 2 years old...

Don

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Re: Self Blues, Recessive Whites, and Blacks
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2016, 08:49:15 AM »
Jen,   It's hard to see all of the attributes on the males in the pictures so trust your best judgement after watching them on your farm.  The mother could have been useful but that happens a lot more than not unfortunately.  That being said, I would not have an issue with breeding brother and sister one generation if that is your best choice to improve the line.  You will be reinforcing the traits that they have so keep that in mind.  I don't know how many you want to raise.  You might try a couple different males to see what they produce.  Mark these and keep good records to create your related families for future generations. 

My guess is that the Blacks are based on Gold.  Its not a given but if they are good blacks probably so.  If you use a Black male to cross into these you will probably bring some good traits into the SB line.  And you will produce all females that carry Gold.  They likely will not show any issues.  The males from this mating may show some issues.  But the pullets from this mating will throw males that have Gold genes and you may well end up with SB with a golden cast rather than the nice clean color preferred.  Talk to some of those folks that have raised SB for the longest and get their thoughts for sure.  Good Luck and I hope you can bring some of these out to some of the meets this spring.   
Don Cash
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Jen Mitchell

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Re: Self Blues, Recessive Whites, and Blacks
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2016, 02:50:13 PM »
Don, excellent points and I appreciate the advice... my limits are time, amount of eggs and incubator space, lol... I do have several bators, including cabinets so that's a lot... although feed bill might catch up with me... ;)

I will definitely test mate first off, I want to see who might or might not be carrying the white just for records sake... and then rotate through the males and see how each crossing turns out... will definitely mark each set for sure, thanks...

As for the good blacks I got, I believe if I use them my best bet is to pick out the best cockerel from that mating and use him instead of the pullets... great thing is, there is no shortage of demand for EE's around here, especially pretty ones... and egg color is really nice...

Thanks again, and we'll see about showing... I gotta learn all the prep leading up to first! :D

HarryS

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Re: Self Blues, Recessive Whites, and Blacks
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2016, 04:22:24 PM »
After hatching for well over 10 years in the lavender project never had a white chick hatch since I only ever had one white hen that I culled after using once on a black.  I have had lavenders Ameraucanas and especially Orpingtons hatch very, very light and other people mistake them as white until placed next to a white.  I suspect there was other genes involved that had some type of inhibitor gene to make them lighter than the average lavender I produce.  I know my lavenders are geneally lighter that a lot of other people out there.  I wish I would have gotten a white though since I bought 3 white chicks and now I only have one cockerel left from the three and have to use him over my blacks and blues till I get a few split for next year. 
Harry Shaffer

DeWayne Edgin

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Re: Self Blues, Recessive Whites, and Blacks
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2016, 09:41:04 PM »
Harry I have White's also and I'm in PA if you need help with White's let me know.

Jen Mitchell

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Re: Self Blues, Recessive Whites, and Blacks
« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2017, 01:58:01 AM »
After hatching for well over 10 years in the lavender project never had a white chick hatch since I only ever had one white hen that I culled after using once on a black.  I have had lavenders Ameraucanas and especially Orpingtons hatch very, very light and other people mistake them as white until placed next to a white.  I suspect there was other genes involved that had some type of inhibitor gene to make them lighter than the average lavender I produce.  I know my lavenders are geneally lighter that a lot of other people out there.  I wish I would have gotten a white though since I bought 3 white chicks and now I only have one cockerel left from the three and have to use him over my blacks and blues till I get a few split for next year.

Harry, I am amazed I hatched any, much less a few of them... the odds were astronomical that it worked out that way... this old cock bird was hatched by Connie Pegram when she got eggs from you March of 2011... she hatched out 3 cockerels and 1 pullet, but when they were 7 months old circumstances had her sell them to Donna... Donna kept him and the pullet to breed... she told me when she decided to let him go that he was the last one left from those originals... and that on a rare occasion, she hatched a white from the pair before... the black split hen I hatched from Jerry was the only survivor out of my entire grow out pen when our ex-neighbors dogs got out and tore it apart... so chance happened for these 2 to end up together, lol...

I hatched 4 whites and 2 of the lavender-whites... both of the lavender-whites were cockerels and 1 of the whites was... I sent them back to Donna as she wished to use them in her project... I  still have the 3 white pullets and the old cock bird... and the lavender pullets from that mating, which are a lighter shade and I really like them...

I really don't know what to do with the white pullets, but if you're interested in them, or offspring from them and the old cock bird, you are more than welcome to them... just let me know... the slate on the legs of the whites is very pale, but turned out nice and dark on the lavender-whites and the lavender pullets as well...

Here's a pic of one of the lavender-whites (on the right) and the white cockerel between him and the white Silkie when they were about 3 months old... and one of the lighter lavender pullets... I have more pics from hatch and up, but resizing and posting them here is difficult...