Author Topic: Proposed change in APA Standard for Blue Wheaten males  (Read 6717 times)

Susan Mouw

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Proposed change in APA Standard for Blue Wheaten males
« on: March 12, 2018, 05:12:21 PM »
The ABC Board of Directors was approached about presenting a change to the APA for the Blue Wheaten large fowl - males only.  The Board of Directors had quite an extensive conversation about the proposal and have since voted no to sponsor the request.  It is, however, our understanding that another club voted yes to proceed.  If you breed blue wheaten large fowl Ameraucana, you might want to be aware of this possible change proposal and you might be contacted about it. You might even agree with the change and wish to support it.  Here are the proposed changes:

Large Fowl Blue Wheaten Male

NECK (as it is now) - Hackle - light orange shading to golden at lower extremities, free from dark striping. Front of neck - blue, some orange ticking permissible.

NECK (proposed, with changes highlighted) - Hackle – light orange shading to golden at lower extremities, free from dark striping. Front of neck – blue, preferably edged with dark blue with some dark blue shafting, some orange ticking permissible.

WINGS (as it is now): Fronts - blue, preferably laced with dark blue.

WINGS (proposed, with changes highlighted): Fronts – blue, preferably edged with dark blue with some dark blue shafting.

BREAST (as it is now): Blue, preferably laced with dark blue.

BREAST (proposed, with changes highlighted): Blue, preferably edged with dark blue with some dark blue shafting.


There is a common misconception that the word "lacing" as used in describing the blue wheaten males is the same as the word "lacing" used in other color descriptions - specifically the blue Ameraucana - however, the "lacing" used here is described correctly as a darker blue; while lacing, as used in the description of the Andalusian (from which the Blue Ameraucana gets its color description), is always black, sometimes a flat black and sometimes a glossy black, but always black.  The addition of the "preferred shafting" was also a deterrent for this ABC Board and it was not approved by a majority vote.

The descriptions of the SOP (as it is now) are taken from the APA Standard of Perfection, 2010 version.


Susan Mouw
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Andrew Johnson

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Re: Proposed change in APA Standard for Blue Wheaten males
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2018, 11:06:09 PM »
I will speak up and say I strongly agree for the changes. I believe "laced" needs to be taken completely out. I also believe that some of the APA standard for Ameraucanas was poorly written. No one should have to refer to another breed to figure out what our birds should look like.

Don

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Re: Proposed change in APA Standard for Blue Wheaten males
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2018, 03:35:14 PM »
You are right Andrew.  A lot of the language takes a bit of learning curve to understand.  And the references are often difficult to track too.  Part of the issue I think is because of the way the APA is organized with color descriptions related to one breed rather than in a stand alone section like the ABA has them listed.  Another part of the description difficulty I think is trying to relay a visual picture of the bird in a way that is really a form of an outline.  There seems to have been a lot of personal preferences from each standard committee members of the two clubs over time as well. It must have been even more complex given that the language in the APA/ABA have to be different because of copy-write protection.  Thanks for your input.
Don Cash
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Ernie Haire

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Re: Proposed change in APA Standard for Blue Wheaten males
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2018, 07:31:52 PM »
I think that we put too much importance on lacing of Blue Ameraucanas. One of the elephants in the room that nobody wants to address is the constant attempt to improve the lacing on Blue Ameraucanas drives people toward crossbreeding. Am I the only one who has noticed that most of the better laced Blue Ameraucanas carry other Andalusian characteristics? I have to shake my head when someone mentions the beautiful lacing on the Blue Ameraucana. They never want to discuss the white earlobes, elongated feathers, or the Mediterranean body type of their beautiful Blue Ameraucana.  This is why we do not breed and or show Blue Ameraucanas.

You know what they say, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em or let 'em have it. I refused to use Andalusians in our Blue Ameraucana breeding program, so I decided to let 'em have it.

Be Blessed,
Ernie Haire

Peggy Taylor

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Re: Proposed change in APA Standard for Blue Wheaten males
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2018, 01:42:15 AM »
I prefer neat lacing on the breast of my Blue Wheaten males in both Large Fowl and Bantams. I pretty much have it set in my males but I do see a lot of males without good lacing or with no lacing at all. I don't like the red/orange ticking in the breast. I don't have a problem with the ticking issue because I have bred away from it and culled for it from the start. I very seldom have a male with any red ticking at all.

I am simply going to keep my opinions to myself about why "needed changes" to standards are often presented.

I completely agree with Ernie about the issue of lacing in the Blue Ameraucanas

Peggy


Max

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Re: Proposed change in APA Standard for Blue Wheaten males
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2018, 10:56:46 AM »
I think that we put too much importance on lacing of Blue Ameraucanas. One of the elephants in the room that nobody wants to address is the constant attempt to improve the lacing on Blue Ameraucanas drives people toward crossbreeding. Am I the only one who has noticed that most of the better laced Blue Ameraucanas carry other Andalusian characteristics? I have to shake my head when someone mentions the beautiful lacing on the Blue Ameraucana. They never want to discuss the white earlobes, elongated feathers, or the Mediterranean body type of their beautiful Blue Ameraucana.  This is why we do not breed and or show Blue Ameraucanas.

You know what they say, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em or let 'em have it. I refused to use Andalusians in our Blue Ameraucana breeding program, so I decided to let 'em have it.

Be Blessed,
Ernie Haire

Ernie,

Most breeds and varieties of chickens were created by crossing other breeds or varieties together and then selecting the offspring to breed towards the SOP description. That's how all Ameraucanas were created. If the genes required to match the SOP description are not present, then you have to bring them in from other breeds or varieties.  The SOP describes the color blue as Andalusian blue. Every breed that has a blue variety is referenced back to Andalusian blue for the description of the color. Yes, there are a lot of laced blue Ameraucana being shown that have Andalusian traits. This project is still in its early stages. It will take time to get them back to good Ameraucana type. Sometimes in order to continue moving forward, first you have to take a few steps back.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2018, 09:13:54 AM by Max »
Max Strawn

Peggy Taylor

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Re: Proposed change in APA Standard for Blue Wheaten males
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2018, 04:59:23 PM »
I know the officers decided against approving or presenting or whatever the discussed change. However, after a discussion over the weekend regarding the change being considered on the Blue Wheaten male color I came home and dug out my APA and ABA Standards thinking I must have missed something important along the line regards this particular variety. Both standards clearly refer to "laced" not edged in the Blue Wheaten male.  The ONLY reference I can find to "edging" is on Page 8 of the APA SOP referring to some varieties of Rocks, Wyandottes, and Turkeys. No mention of shafting. I personally think this discussion is a waste of time and do not understand the reason for the issue in the first place. It is splitting hairs over two words....

I am quite sure neither the ABA Standard nor APA Standard are in any danger of changing in my forseeable future for such an insignificant issue.  Since those Standards are what we show to... those are what I will continue to try to breed to irregardless of how a  breed club votes.

There was some mention of this having something to do with research on the Splash wheaten males.  If so, it is a non issue with me. I have raised enough of the Splash Wheaten males...Bantams predominately...to see no issue with "laced", "edged" or shafting (or lack thereof which I will not use) of the base Blue Wheaten Males. I have four Bantam SpWh males right now that are as alike as peas in a pod in body color...no red ticking in the breast on three and only 1 or 2 small spots in the other...all sired by the same bird and out of different females. I can tell you right now that the Large Fowl and the Bantams are going to express color in the breast differently.  My large Fowl SpWh male is very heavily ticked in red on the breast although body color is identical to the bantams.  My original Blue Wheaten male was identical to my Bantam male in lacing and shafting. I have never used a Blue Wheaten male with red ticking in the breast. I will be breeding my second generation of Splash Wheatens ( from Splash Wheatens)this spring and will have a more solid handle on my own answers. At this time I see no revelence as regards the Splash Wheaten male to the issue being discussed.

You can "study" a subject to death but genetics being what they are....just as soon as you think you have found the answer you find out you know nothing. With untold numbers of possible gene pairings each time a cross is made anything is possible.  That's not to say that one should not research what they want to do but nothing takes the place of practical application in breeding and raising. You just start with the best you have and go from there, hoping you made good decisions

I will continue to use the ABA/APA SOPs as written until they change.  Any of the above is simply my opinion for what its worth.

Peggy





Ernie Haire

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Re: Proposed change in APA Standard for Blue Wheaten males
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2018, 10:20:37 PM »
I am very aware that all breeds and/or varieties of chickens were made by crossing other breeds and/or varieties and selectively breeding for specific traits. Noah did not put Ameraucanas, Marans, Orpingtons, or any other breed of chicken on the boat. I guess my confusion comes from too many years and experience in the breeding and showing cattle, horses, hogs, goats, rabbits, and dogs. Brangus cattle are 5/8 Angus, 3/8 Brahman not just short-haired black cattle with longer than normal ears. Boer goats are considered and registered as percentage until they reach the point of 15/16 Boer. After 15/16, they are American Purebred Boer goats. My question is that once we have chickens that are accepted and recognized as a breed and/or variety based on selectively breeding and characteristics, when do we start breeding the best of them to the best of them and stop crossbreeding? What is the difference in a crossbred chicken that is crossed to improve a particular characteristic and an Easter Egger, a mut, or a crossbred bird?

Ameraucanas are not the only breed that is crossbreeding to improve a particular characteristic. Look around the show barns and it is easy to see other breeds that have crossbred birds representing purebred breeds. I guess I am too simple minded to see stepping back as moving forward, but blessed beyond belief to have what I have.

Just saying,
Ernie

Susan Mouw

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Re: Proposed change in APA Standard for Blue Wheaten males
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2018, 08:19:49 AM »


Ernie,

Most breeds and varieties of chickens were created by crossing other breeds or varieties together and then selecting the offspring to breed towards the SOP description. That's how all Ameraucanas were created. If the genes required to match the SOP description are not present, then you have to bring them in from other breeds or varieties.  The SOP describes the color blue as Andalusian blue. Every breed that has a blue variety is referenced back to Andalusian blue for the description of the color. Yes, there are a lot of laced blue Ameraucana being shown that have Andalusian traits. This project is still in its early stages. It will take time to get them back to good Ameraucana type. Sometimes in order to continue moving forward, first you have to take a few steps back.

I agree with your statement as regards the Blue Ameraucana.  The Standard does call for the same color pattern as found in Blue Andalusian - those are considered the pinnacle of blue feathering in chickens.  However the Standard for Blue Wheaten does not compare to the blue Andalusian and does not call for the black or glossy black lacing found in the Andalusian. 

At one point, I agreed that the word "lacing" should probably be changed to "edging", however, after further research, I realized it is really splitting hairs and an unnecessary change.  I have never agreed to the "preferred shafting" and think that would be an error on our part to condone or request such a change.
Susan Mouw
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Max

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Re: Proposed change in APA Standard for Blue Wheaten males
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2018, 09:08:13 AM »
My question is that once we have chickens that are accepted and recognized as a breed and/or variety based on selectively breeding and characteristics, when do we start breeding the best of them to the best of them and stop crossbreeding?

When the best of them have all the genes required to match the standard description.

 What is the difference in a crossbred chicken that is crossed to improve a particular characteristic and an Easter Egger, a mut, or a crossbred bird?

There is no difference until they are bred back to good Ameraucana type.

Ameraucanas are not the only breed that is crossbreeding to improve a particular characteristic. Look around the show barns and it is easy to see other breeds that have crossbred birds representing purebred breeds.

There are no purebred birds or breeds, only standard bred, as in bred to the Standard of Perfection.

I agree there a lot of people showing their project birds before they are ready. That is their choice. It doesn't mean they are wrong in doing so.  I have done it myself. It's up to the judge to select the best bird.

 I guess I am too simple minded to see stepping back as moving forward,

If you find yourself at a dead end, what do you do? You go back until you find your way out.

« Last Edit: March 27, 2018, 04:04:00 PM by Max »
Max Strawn

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Re: Proposed change in APA Standard for Blue Wheaten males
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2018, 09:44:35 AM »

I agree with your statement as regards the Blue Ameraucana.  The Standard does call for the same color pattern as found in Blue Andalusian - those are considered the pinnacle of blue feathering in chickens.  However the Standard for Blue Wheaten does not compare to the blue Andalusian and does not call for the black or glossy black lacing found in the Andalusian. 

At one point, I agreed that the word "lacing" should probably be changed to "edging", however, after further research, I realized it is really splitting hairs and an unnecessary change.  I have never agreed to the "preferred shafting" and think that would be an error on our part to condone or request such a change.

I personally don't believe that "blue wheaten" should be compared to "blue". They are two completely different varieties. That being said, I do believe that a standard description change would be detrimental to the work that many breeders have put into the Blue Wheaten variety.
Max Strawn

Susan Mouw

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Re: Proposed change in APA Standard for Blue Wheaten males
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2018, 10:31:57 AM »
I agree and that is why the majority of the Board did not vote to pursue it.  It is my understanding, however, that it is being pursued, either individually or with the endorsement of another club.  As far as I know, it has not yet been submitted to the Standards Committee.  If/when it is, it has to be approved by the Standards Committee by a majority vote; and if approved, will be put before the APA membership for comments.
Susan Mouw
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