Breeding through fence?

[John]

Ronda,
I think it\'s interesting the you said \"crooked\" beaks and hmedford(?) said \"crossed\".  I\'ve seen both.  If you look at a bird head-on and notice the beak to curve to the left of right, while still closing properly, I refer to that as a crooked beak.  This has been a problem with some of my brown red bantams.
More often what people notice is a crossed beak.  The chick looks normal at birth, but over the first few weeks the upper and lower beaks cross and don\'t come together properly.  There are other beak deformities too.  I believe these are congenital defects and that most are caused from breeding birds that are too closely related.  I\'ve hatched well over a thousand chicks this year and had a few crossed beaks appear.  
These things happen.  Maybe give him the money back and take the birds back.  You may have to state in the future they are buying the birds \"as is\", or you\'ll be replacing the adult hens because they don\'t lay enough eggs or the a cock because he isn\'t fertile.

     

[Guest]

I used both terms (crooked, crossed) because I\'m not familiar with this problem and don\'t know the difference, but in searching last night found the 2 different descriptions, and wanted to cover all my bases.

In my searching last night I found 1 reference each for genetic, nutritional and incubator problem for this, which just confuses things further for me.

I did not see a crossed beak when these chicks were at my home, but I must admit that I wasn\'t looking for one either, since I have not produced any before in my 8 years of breeding chickens.  As stated before, I know what it looks like because I received a chick (a variety I no longer have) that had a crossed beak, and that\'s the extent of my experience in this particular area.

Yes, I need to nip this in the bud, and you confirmed my decision; take the birds back and refund.  I should have followed my gut instinct when he asked me no less than 7 times (in 3 phone calls) what color my eggs are.  Good advice about the future, too...   Thanks!

But...  I\'m still left with my question about my birds...  is this a reason to cull my breeding stock, which I\'ve had NO problems with before, and are eggcellent producers in egg color and quantity, in addition to the fact that they are beautiful?  Or do I have a lurking demon in their genetics?

Ronda

[John]

genetic, nutritional and incubator problem

Sometimes it is a guessing game.  When you are hatching several breeds/varieties and it only shows up in certain varieties you bet it is linked to the genes.  That still doesn\'t mean cull the breeders.  My theory is most congenital type defects will disappear by finding different breeding partners for you birds.  I know of folks in the past that would buy 25 LF black chicks from me and 25 from Paul Smith, so they could breed males from one strain to the females of the other.  I try to keep two strains of each variety that I breed.  That way I can breed cousins, but not siblings (usually).
I bought 25 LF Lakenvelder chicks from a major hatchery a week ago (for a future breeding project).  They sent 26 in the box and one had stradeled legs.  I\'ve hatched chicks with the same condition and culled them.  The point is \"these things happen\".  

[Guest]

I\'ve hatched well over a thousand chicks this year and had a few crossed beaks appear.  
These things happen.  Maybe give him the money back and take the birds back.  You may have to state in the future they are buying the birds \"as is\", or you\'ll be replacing the adult hens because they don\'t lay enough eggs or the a cock because he isn\'t fertile.      

Well, he wasn\'t answering his phone yesterday, so I sent an email stating that we will pick up the birds and issue full refund.  I\'ve since received yet another email from him stating that he now wants a refund on the replacement birds, among other things.  You were right; this could go on forever!  I need to get those birds back!  

I sent a no-nonsense letter demanding a time today when we could do the pick up and refund.  I hope this is the end of it, and need to learn to follow my gut instincts when talking to potential buyers, because I had several red flags before this one even got to my door to pick up chicks in the first place.  I also added some stuff to my contact us page to hopefully prevent such nonsense in the future.  All it takes is one person!

Thanks for all the help and advice!  Great forum!  I\'ll be back when I have more pleasant stuff to discuss!   :rolleyes:

[Anne Foley]

My understanding is that crossed (or scissor) beak is hereditary.  However, that does not mean that your breeding stock is bad.  Mutations do spontaneously occur in single individuals.  If you hatch other chicks with the same problem, I would definitely change the breeding set-up (such as use a different male).  That customer of yours sounds like a jerk and you are being very nice about it (to your credit!).  Personally, I would take everything back and refund his money.

[Guest]

Sounds like this person just decided he didn\'t like the chicks for whatever reason and just wants his money back.

If you give him his money back, he will, maybe, tell 2 people that you did that.
If you don\'t, he will tell 20 people you refused a refund for damaged birds whether its true or not.
It isn\'t worth the hassle or possible damage to your reputation.

I would take them back, and hope you might have a chance to brag that one of those refund chicks turned out to be a best in show winner! Ha!

Sterling

[Guest]

Sounds like this person just decided he didn\'t like the chicks for whatever reason and just wants his money back.

No, no no...  you and the last poster must have missed something.  I\'m trying to refund his money in full and get the chicks back.  He\'s refusing.  I have been bending over backwards for this guy.