Open show only or Open show w/Junior Show?

[John]

Paul,
Thanks for the great report with photos from the OK show.

The junior show was mixed with the open and the juniors showed against the open in a trial basis for this show.

Our local annual show has had a Jr show separate from the Open show for about 5 or 6 years.  It makes a lot of extra paper work for me as Show Superintendent, since it really means putting on two shows.  I plan to go back to one Open show with Jr exhibitors eligible for special awards on top of the Open show awards, like many of the show clubs in California do.  John Monaco said:

Most of the shows here in California have a combined show with both the open and juniors. All of the birds are judged together in the open show and then the judge goes back and picks class champions in the junior class. The juniors like this better because they have a chance to win both the open award and the junior award. We determined the juniors in a couple of ways. Some clubs use different colored coop cards and others just put a J on the exhibitor number. We find that this system is much easier for both the show and the judge.

We would still have Showmanship for youth with birds brought in for it and not birds taken from the show as many do (even when they aren\'t supposed to).  I understand the deal about the Jr\'s being the future of the fancy and think Showmanship is a great thing, but I\'ve noticed many birds on the Jr show\'s Championship row that were entered in a Jr\'s name even though not bred, fed, groomed or handled by them.
I would like to hear input from everyone on this subject.  Pros and cons...one show for all exhibitors or an Open plus Jr Show.  Please let me know if your views are as an exhibitor, show club member or both.  

[Mike Gilbert]

I personally don\'t see the point of seperate junior shows.   Junior birds are often raised, conditioned, and prepared by parents in my experience.    When a three year old wins top awards in a junior show against a sixteen year old who does all their own work something is amiss.   I do like the idea of having seperate awards for juniors along with giving them the opportunity to show against more and better competition.  Their object should be learning about the hobby, their birds, how to lose gracefully, and how to win with modesty.   All part of growing up.   Unfortunately there seem to be a few of us who seem to be stuck in a state of perpetual adolescence.   Close to home in a neighboring county, a young lad won top honors at his county fair two years in a row against scant competition.  The third year he lost interest and didn\'t even enter.   He was apparently bright enough to realize his \"wins\" didn\'t mean a whole lot.

[jwoodhaven]

It seems to us that a lot of these so called junior projects are really the parents trying to get the kids involved in something they really have no interest in. It turns out to be the parents project but want the birds shown by a junior.  We quit selling birds to parents trying to find birds for their kids.  If the junior has enough interest, they will call themselves. These kids are the ones that will ask the needed questions and in the long run stay interested in showing.   I think that it is kind of confusing when the Juniors are mixed in with the adults at shows but understand why it is done.  Many times there are more awards for Juniors than the open exhibitors with only a handful of juniors showing  and these birds are really the parents projects.   Don\'t get me wrong about parents helping, I just feel that the interest needs to be there before the parents step in and take over.

Jake Hendzel

[Anne Foley]

As a former 4-H leader I can say that junior exhibitors run the full range from totally involved and doing it all by themselves to totally uninterested and parents doing everything.  As I see it, it is a win for the fancy either way.  Maybe the kid loses interest, but getting Mom and Dad hooked is a good thing too.  I can think of several cases where this has happened and the fancy has benefited.  One way to look at the junior show is that it is a recruitment tool for both adults and kids.  Any kid that is doing well in juniors should be invited by exhibitors/breeders to move up and compete with the adults.

[John]

move up and compete with the adults

I\'ve noticed that some of the Jr\'s that are really into the fancy (buying, breeding, caring for, etc. thier own birds) enter birds into both our Jr show and Open show.  I also know some show clubs, that also have two shows, allow Jr\'s to only exhibit in one...either the Jr show or Open, but not both.

I know some show clubs have people judge their Jr shows that aren\'t licenced judges.  That doesn\'t seem right to me since they pay the same entry fee to show a bird in either show.

Although our show is sanctioned by the APA and ABA that really means only our Open show is fully \"sanctioned\".  A few top exhibitors in the Jr show win ribbons and recognition, but are not eligible for APA or ABA member points toward master exhibitor status or whatever that are offered to winners in the Open (sanctioned) show.  By having all birds in the Open show all exhibitors would be eligible.  
Yes, the Jr\'s would still be eligible for \"Special\" Jr exhibitor awards on top of everything else, but I don\'t mind that since it may help to encourage them.
Some of these Jr\'s have better birds and know a lot more about exhibiting than many adults that are new to the fancy.  

 

[faith valley]

This is a very interesting topic and one that we have been discussing as the National Call Breeders\' officers & NCBA Youth committee. We recently held a district meet where there was no jr show.  I am the Youth Director and I was pretty upset when I found out that I would not be able to give jr points to any of the kids since there was no junior show held.   At the time of placing this meet, we were not aware that there was to be no Jr. show.  I know that as a youth director & officer of a breed club, I will not vote to place a national meet at a show that does not hold a separate  judging of junior birds.  It goes against what I personally am trying to do for our youth.
 
The juniors pay the same amount of entry fee as the adults. This should entitle them to a licensed judge and a show just like the adults ask for.  Both pay the same entry fees. I have no problem with the juniors being judged in open as some shows have started to do, so long as they are also judged in a separate junior show. With a junior show report filled out with BVs, RVs, BB, & RB entries filled in.

I know that the Ameraucana Breed club does not have a point system for the juniors, but there are other clubs that do have point systems for kids.  With the Call club, we have two Jr. point achievement levels and also we have a yearly Top Junior Exhibitor.  We keep cummulative points for our kids and adults alike.  It would certainly be a shame if host shows turned to this system of dropping junior shows.

One possible solution to the lack of youth participation at shows could be to not allow adults in the junior section of the show hall.  Make the juniors coop in, care for and coop out their birds.  If the youngster cant attend the show then perhaps their junior birds should also not attend. This would drop entry dollars though. Some shows have turned to this system as they tire of adults showing under kids\' names and the kids\' not attending the show. I would rather see this system than to see the junior shows dropped.

Just food for thought~

Patty

[John]

 

Make the juniors coop in, care for and coop out their birds.

That is something all shows need to enforce whether the youth have entries in Open Show or Jr Show.

hold a separate judging of junior birds

That would still be done using the \"California\" guidelines.  It would be similar to the double judged shows that are springing up in some ways.  After the show is judged the judges go back and judge only Jr entries against themselves.

I don\'t know when the show clubs started having seperate Jr shows, but we didn\'t have them in this region years ago.

[Jean]

I agree with making the juniors coop in and care for their own birds if they are able.  I have a child with down syndrome and if she ever showed an interest in birds she would need some help.

I know at the Ameraucana Nationals a lady entered a bird for her grandchild who was around 1-2 years of age.

Obviously that child did not care for or wish to exhibit the bird, but it was a way for the adult to make some extra money off of prizes awarded, which takes away from the kids that were actually there exhibiting their birds.  Maybe a \"must be present to win\" stipulation.....  

At least get the children there to soak in what the show is all about.

Jean

[faith valley]

I agree that the kids should be caring for thier birds, the problem will come in when you have the younger ones that can\'t read yet.  This would cause extra work for the show staff as they would have to assit in the coop in due to reading issues.

My youngest just turned 6, she has 5 standard ameraucanas and a call duck.  She takes care of them every day - food water... treats and picks eggs.  However, she would not be able to coop in a standard chicken, the pens are too high off of the ground and her male is not easy to handle as he is just 9 months old.  She is also just learning to read, & many of our coop tags are written in cursive.... So in some instances the kids are caring for their birds in big 8 foot ground pens... however, they might not be able to care for them at a show due to short stature and reading limitations.  That is where a buddy system or older siblings might well need to come into play.

~Patty~

[John]

\"must be present to win\"

I understand there are special circumstances where a person needs help cooping in and/or out themselves.  Maybe those should be explained to Show Superintendents.  
I know sometimes a person that has 100% invested in thier own birds can\'t make it to a show that they have birds entered in.  In those cases they have a friend take their birds for them.  We have to be careful that we don\'t become to legalistic with our rules.

[faith valley]

I totally agree with you John. I see no problem with birds entered in open and brought by another exhibitor. That is totally cool- many farms are partner farms and one shows or the other shows both strings.  Or there may be an illness and birds are brought by a friend.  I guess when it comes to teh juniro show, that is where we need to give more thought as to the best method.... Integrity is really where we need to go.  We need to teach our kids that a shallow victory is really not a victory at all.

Patty