Missing Varieties

[Johnny Parks]

Kelli,
Go to the top of the forum page and do a search on \"Millie Fleur.\" You might be able to find previous posts where people are already working on developing Millie Fleur Ameraucana.  Just my two cents, I would advise against using fleather legged birds in your breeding project.

[Guest]

The only other relevant post I could find was talking of using Speckled Sussex, but I don\'t have access to any Sussex bantams, and the Speckled Sussex are not the exact pattern I\'m looking for.  I will see if I can find some Mille patterned d\' Anvers, but there just aren\'t a lot of people that have them, and if they do have them, it always seems they are Quail-that\'s not what I\'m looking for.

I know someone who will sell me d\' Uccle eggs in a few months.  I agree that breeding out feathered legs will be difficult, but at least you can see it and know which birds are a problem.  I really don\'t want to order some hatchery chicks just to get the mille color.  So many choices.

[Guest]

From what I\'ve read in F.P. Jeffery\'s book on Old english, Mille Fleur is based on Wheaten and Buff is also based on wheaten.  So it sounds as if a Wheaten or Buff  Ameraucana may be a good place to start.  

According to geneticists the basic lay out for a Mille Fleur is Wheaten with Columbian (Co) and mottling (mo) genes which you need two of each.

The buff is Wheaten w/ Co and Db (Columbian and restrictor of black or sometimes called dark brown because of the down color).

I haven\'t worked with Mille Fleur yet but have been considering it in one of my project pens.  

If you bred your buff on to a mille fleur your F1s bred to each other could throw something close to what you are looking for, you would have to breed out the Db and any other unwanted traits.

If you breed a wheaten instead of a buff then you wouldn\'t have to bread out the Db, but your F1s would have only one dose of Co and mo.

You can get the mottling gene from a spangled or mottled bird, but that may add extra unwanted traits or E loci.  

I may be all wrong and some mille fleurs  may be based on a different E loci as well as the Ameraucana Buff may not be Wheaten based.

I would try to stay away from any feather footed birds.  We had what looked like a nice blue wheaten cock we picked up at a swap meet but most of his offspring had stubs on the legs. After the first year we never used him or any of his decedents.

I just realized I had put too much thought in to this post.  

glen

[John]

On pages 193 and 198 of Jeffrey\'s Bantam Chickens he lists the proposed genotype for mille fleur and porcelain based on e^b, but the website below claims mille fleur and porcelain can be based on e+, e^b or e^Wh.  If so I would start with a wheaten Ameraucana as Glen said.
http://home.ezweb.com.au/~kazballea/belgians/lowgraphic.htm#genotypes

Gold (s/s) varieties based on e+ or eb or eWh alleles, with Columbian
Millefleur: e+/e+ s/s Ig/Ig Co/Co mo/mo Lav/Lav bl/bl Rb/Rb i/ i
Porcelaine: e+/e+ s/s Ig/Ig Co/Co mo/mo lav/lav bl/bl Rb/Rb i/ i

[Guest]

I have one Wheaten hen and one Blue Wheaten hen, at least that saves me from having to buy both sides of the base stock.  Everyone seems to be saying stay away from the feathered legs, so that leaves pretty much a d\' Anver or Old English.  So I will begin my search, hopefully I can find something locally.  

Thank you Glen for putting \"too much thought\" into your post , it is appreciated.  Can you explain a little more about the Db gene?  I\'m not familiar with it.

John, thank you for responding, but that is way to technical for me!  I really don\'t know what e+, or e^b means.  And what exactly is a locus?  I\'ve been trying to understand, but I can\'t seem to get past the most basic of genetics, squares I understand, probability I understand, but the rest of it???

So if I use the Blue Wheaten hen, I can use the blues to go into a Blue Mille program and the regulars in the original program, it shouldn\'t change anything else right?

 

[Anne Foley]

Some of you may be interested in a new book called An Introduction to Color Forms of the Domestic Fowl by Brian Reeder published in 2006 by AuthorHouse.

[John]

what exactly is a locus

That just means the location of a gene.  The \"E\" locus is the location of the \"background\" gene of a chicken.  It is the foundation that you start with to build a variety.
Note that although \"wheaten\" is the name of a variety it is also the name of an E-locus gene.  \"Birchen\" can also refer to a color variety or an E-locus gene.  So, these can be confusing.
In the latest ABC Handbook Mike Gilbert has an article that should be helpful.
The following website can be a real help:
http://marsa_sellers.tripod.com/geneticspages/page0.html

To ‘construct’ a chicken having a particular color scheme, one begins with the ‘background’ or the E-locus gene(s).  The other color and (secondary) pattern genes essentially modify this ‘background’.

[Guest]

Thank you for that reference site.  I bookmarked that and the last one.  I\'m learning a lot here.  This is my new plan:

Mille d\' Anver or Mille/Spangled Old Engish (stay away from the feathered legs LOL)

over

Wheaten/Blue Wheaten(already have) and Buff (if I get any) Ameraucanas

I may try breeding different combinations in pairs if I can find enough breeders and space to start with.  I only have three empty cages and they only hold pairs.  The first bird sale in this area isn\'t until May, so hopefully I can find a few adult birds and get started right away.  I would hate to have to start with chicks that late, I want to start my project NOW!

[John]

and Buff

I would follow Glens advice and not use buff if you don\'t have to.  
The guy that made the cross with Cochins probably used buff Cochins because they were the closest variety to wheaten available.  Maybe ask for his advise about using wheaten instead of buff.

[Guest]

Good idea, I will try to email him and see what he says about it.  I don\'t know him personally, he just had his information about how he made them posted.

[Mike Gilbert]

Not to throw a wet blanket over the mottled project, but it is my understanding the mottling gene (mo) inhibits dermal melanin, which is necessary for slate leg color.   Maybe someone can either verify  this or provide more accurate information?

[Guest]

I know that barring is an inhibitor, but have not heard that about mottling.  There are several pictures of d\' Anvers both mottled and Mille patterned that appear to have slate legs.  Pictures don\'t always show the truth though.

[John]

inhibits dermal melanin

According to Marsa_Sellers website, referenced above, mo \"dilutes epidermal melanin\".

[Mike Gilbert]

John, right you are.   Mottling is listed in two different places in Sellers gene tables, one says the epidermal melanin is diluted, the other doesn\'t say one way or the other.   And I did find mottled D\'Anvers on the Feathersite website.

[bantamhill]

I cannot help, but enter into this discussion. For those who do not know the history of the acceptance of Ameraucana by the ABA and APA I suggest reading the history at the following link on the club website.

http://www.ameraucana.org/history.html

I actually understand both sides of this discussion. Before heading anywhere on a new variety one needs to know the Ameraucana standard. One of the limiting factors, as Mike Gilbert stated, is the slate leg requirement.

I have worked for several years with barred birds after discovering a cuckoo Maran hen with black legs on breeding her offspring to black Ameraucana. The best I have so far is what resembles the \"blue shading\" some of the buff and wheaten large fowl Ameraucana have for slate legs. I will try to snap a picture tomorrow and post one.

I too lament that there are no varieties to complement silver and brown red, I also believe that there needs to be something special about the variety that complements silver and brown red. As the lavender gene stablizes there may be some oppertunities for development of a variety that has staying power that will complement the silver and brown red pens. I have been messing with lemon blue for the brown red, but I have nothing to show for it currently. I do like the blue silver cock I have, but a lot of folks do not like the blue gene. Maybe lavender silver would take off? Dun silver?There are a few black tailed red around in the bantam size, but very few are shown. The key is for the folks who are interested in new varieties to work with others who are interested and show the birds. I will put the black gold forward as an example . . . there are a few folks working on them, but they are tough to breed and haven\'t really caught on.  

I encourage folks to try to create varieties they are interested in to complement what exists in the standards already or create something new. One must however realize there are several varieties in desperate need of people to keep them. With the last club membership renewal I have been collecting a census of what varieties club members have and non-standard varieties that are under development. While the data is incomplete, it is a bleak picture for several of the varieties. I hope to report out in the spring or summer bulletin to give members an idea of what the population of Ameraucana look like.