Varieties can\'t cross--why?

[Guest]

Alright, I\'ve about worn the \"search\" button out and I\'m having a very hard time figuring out what\'s up with Ameraucana varieties, and WHY they can\'t cross unless it\'s black/blue or wheaten/blue wheaten.  I did find that someone said they have to breed true 50% of the time--is that correct?  If that\'s correct, why can\'t Splash be recognized as a variety?  Does someone somewhere have a list of what CAN and CAN\'T be bred--or Easter eggers are the result?  And WHY?

Thanks in advance,

Liz in Utah

[Guest]

Basically, you have to think of each variety in terms of the genes needed to express; each variety requiring different combinations. So if you mix them, you will not have the gene \"package\" needed to be a proper variety and it certainly will not breed \"true\" ... in essence an easter-egger.
I can speak from experience as I aquired the blue gene from a blue wheaton. It has taken me a long time to get a \"proper\" blue (no red, lacing, no underling wheaton e-locus).

[John]

WHY they

can\'t cross

They can cross.  They just won\'t produce chicks that will be of a recognized variety...normally.  It\'s the same with other breeds of poultry and any animal that is \"Standard\" bred.
As you mentioned one exception, with Ameraucanas, is crossing black to blue.  The chicks will be either black or blue and both are recognized varieties.  
The breeds and varieties of chickens are defined by the American Poultry Association (APA) just as the AKA defines dog breeds and varieties and there are other organizations for other animals.
Some breeders would like to get \"splash\" recognized/accepted and maybe someday someone will organize the effort to get it done.  

[Guest]

Liz,

The \"and why \" is difficult to explain. Chicken genetics is not a simple subject. You will have to trust the advise of the experienced breeders that frequent this forum.  I have a degree in Biology and have been studying chicken genetics for 7 years and having been experimentally crossing birds for 6 years. I am still learning chicken genetics.

Tim

[grisaboy]

You can cross black with blue.
You can cross wheaton with Blue wheaton.
You can cross white with black or blue (should get all black or blue).
You can cross wheaton with brown red (should get all brown red).
You can cross Silver with Birchen (non standard color) and you should get birchen.
You can cross silver with black and you should get Birchen.
The problem is that when you make color crosses, you don\'t always get what you think you should get.  You have to be willing to deal with a lot of culls (Easter Eggers).
It can be a lot of fun if you have the space to raise the chicks and a way to get rid of the extras.

Curtis

[Mike Gilbert]

I\'m afraid I can only partially agree with Curtis.   Most of those crosses will result in non true-breeding offspring, and that is not the definition of Ameraucana we have decided to go with.   For example, crossing black with silver will not yield true birchen, only birds that look something like birchen.  Birchens and brown reds are e>R (birchen) at the e locus.
Most blacks are E (extended black) and silvers are e (wild type) at the e loci.   Therefore this cross will give you chicks that are E/e instead of e>R/e>R.   Birchens and brown reds are the latter.   The former  may look something like birchen, but they are definitely not.   Nor will they breed true to color when mated amongst themselves.     Unless you are developing a brand new variety (not recommended unless you have a firm grasp of poultry genetics) or attempting to improve some aspect of an existing variety, there is no need to re-invent the wheel.   Be patient, do your research, and find a source for the variety you want.   You may need to ask to have your name put on a waiting list, but your patience will pay off in the long run.    The ONLY exceptions for standard recognized colors are mating black with blue and mating wheaten with blue wheaten.  In both cases the only significant difference is the existence of a single gene (Bl) in the two varieties with blue in the plumage.  Then to get GOOD blues you also need pattern gene (Pg) for true lacing.  One of the biggest mistakes we made years ago was using recessive white birds to create other varieties.   I am still plagued with white chicks from certain strains that are inferior because they are not E or e>R.   Or because they carry sex linked gold instead of silver.   It is not a pleasant task to cull baby chicks at hatch for no other reason than knowing that their coloring will likely be undesireable.    I am currently paying nearly $15 for a 50 pound bag of chick starter.   Now more than ever it does not pay to raise culls.

[Guest]

Thanks so much for the explanations, all of you.  Feel free to hit me as hard as you can with genetics, my buddy-in-chickens is a geneticist and anything I don\'t get she can explain for me.

Mike, your explanations were particularly helpful.  Thank you for sharing your expertise.  I definitely am here to learn, which is why I ask the dumb newbie questions I do.  I know better than to buy feed store chicks and try to show them and I am learning about the Standard...muff/beard, horn-color beak, slate legs, etc, so I have the bare basics.  Now what I am trying to learn is the more complicated things about the \"whys\" behind each variety, and its being accepted for recognition.

Thanks again all for sharing your thoughts with me, and I really hope to be able to do some neat things with REAL Ameraucanas, not just my feed-store chickens.

Anyone ever hear of a \"Cream Legbar\"?  That\'s what my current batch of feed store \"Ameraucanas\" look like.

[Mike Gilbert]

Auto sexing blue eggers, single combs I believe, developed in the U.K.?    I don\'t know what the chick down is supposed to look like.

[Guest]

I\'m afraid I can only partially agree with Curtis.   Most of those crosses will result in non true-breeding offspring, and that is not the definition of Ameraucana we have decided to go with.  

I\'m relatively new to chickens and have never shown them, but have been breeding show animals my whole life.  Mike, your statement has me curious. Do the chicken shows have a way to judge for genotype or are they judged by phenotype? There aren\'t any kind of pedigrees, are there? I\'ve been to a few chicken shows and may try my hand in the future, but don\'t want to step on any toes, if show birds must be true-breeding for color genes.

As for out-crossing in general, it is an excellent way to rapidly improve an area of concern with show animals. Generally, undesired color genes can be selected against in future generations, to come up with true breeding animals, if that is the goal. In addition, out-crossing generally increases vigor, growth rates and fecundity in most animals. I\'m guessing, unwanted birds can be sold as layers or fryers.

It would seem to me, that encouraging out-crossing is a good thing in many situations.

[Mike Gilbert]

Poultry Standards have very rigorous type and color requirements.   Most outcrosses will not yield showable feather patterns.    For the few exceptions, obviously there is no way to judge genotype at a poultry show, but showing crossbreds are discouraged by this organization because they don\'t breed true.   We are trying to move away from the circus atmosphere of \"anything goes\" found in the easter eggers that Ameraucanas were derived from.    Solid black females are fairly easy to produce with certain crosses, but solid  black males are not.    Does that answer the question?   If not, fire away.

[Guest]

I was thinking a couple of the same things, Mike: generations of problems down the road, (sometimes passed on to unsuspecting hobbiests.) In some cases the females may look correct and the males may never.

I think to help insure that some of \"old school\" judges take the breed seriously, it\'s very important that varieties conform to the standard.
Lisa

Poultry Standards have very rigorous type and color requirements. Most outcrosses will not yield showable feather patterns. For the few exceptions, obviously there is no way to judge genotype at a poultry show, but showing crossbreds are discouraged by this organization because they don\'t breed true. We are trying to move away from the circus atmosphere of \"anything goes\" found in the easter eggers that Ameraucanas were derived from. Solid black females are fairly easy to produce with certain crosses, but solid black males are not.

[Guest]

Thanks for the explanation Mike. So, if someone takes the time to make a cross and then breed the line back to the correct color conformation over a few generations, then I take it that it would be acceptable to show this line, though maybe not to sell to another show person? There can be serious long-term problems with inbreeding animals if out-crosses never occur. I gather that with chickens the opposite has occurred and that they have seldom been linebred for any length of time.

Sorry for the basic questions, but I\'m not too familiar with the goals of the ABC. Is this primarily a Show organization or is it also interested in promoting other attributes of chickens? There are so many things you can breed towards - egg size, egg color, laying frequency, meat, behavior, longevity, health, temperature tolerance, etc.  I know with some animals the show aspect so dominates, that the show animal is no longer suitable for it\'s original purpose. A good example would be many show dogs. I\'m not saying this is the case with chickens, just that it can happen.

Anyway, just trying to become more familiar with the direction being taken by the ABC.

[John]

Steve and Mike,
I\'m going to put my two cents worth of opinion in on this one.
Steve is talking about \"outcrossing\" and that is a great tool in breeding for what we want, which is all the attributes he mentioned.  I would imagine that whether you are breeding fish or chickens some of the same line breeding and outcrossing techniques can be applied.
Mike mentions outcrossing, crosses and says we shouldn\'t show \"crossbred\" birds.  That statement is of course true.
Just for the sake of clarity I\'ve opened up my little book Start Where You Are With What You Have, by Ralph Sturgeon.  I pretty much use his definitions from the book\'s Glossary and here they are in case you want to use the same:

Outcross - Breeding a dam or sire from someone else\'s strain of a particular breed in order to establish greater vigor.

Using a second stain of your own should work as well as \"someone else\'s stain\".

Crossbreed - mating two totally unrelated individuals from totally different breeds; \"potluck\" breeding.

Since all chickens are related to all chickens you can never have \"totally\" unrelated individuals.

[grisaboy]

I mentioned above some of the color crosses that I have tried.  Mike is right that these color crossed birds may look like a standard color but probably would not breed true.  These could be entered in a show as long as they meet the requirements of that variety.  Poultry shows only are concerned with Phenotype not Genotype.  Even though the color crossed birds may not breed true, the results are usually predictable, and I will get some birds of expected genetics.  I will also usually get some that I did not predict.  These birds make good chicken and noodles.  Inbreeding depression is already showing up in some strains of Ameraucanas.  Outcrossing to other colors within the breed is one way to make the breed more vigorous.  It is not for everybody.  It is especially hard to do with blacks because of how it messes up the males.  At least blacks can be outcrossed to blue and lavender without as many adverse problems.  I know I could cross wheaton and brown red and get brown red chicks.  This is a good way to improve type in Brown Reds since Wheatons have some of the best type birds in the breed.  Wheaton is recessive to Brown Red so if you mate the Brown Red / Wheaton F1 birds, you should get 25 percent wheaton.  This is not breeding true but it is as predictable as mating blue to blue.  I don\'t think matings of this type are creating Easter Eggers any more than mating Blue to Blue.  I like working on rare varieties (Silver Bantams) and new varieties (Birchen) and I have to done many outcrosses to meet my goals.  

Curtis

[Guest]

Just for the sake of clarity I\'ve opened up my little book Start Where You Are With What You Have, by Ralph Sturgeon.  I pretty much use his definitions from the book\'s Glossary and here they are in case you want to use the same:

Outcross - Breeding a dam or sire from someone else\'s strain of a particular breed in order to establish greater vigor.

Using a second stain of your own should work as well as \"someone else\'s stain\".

Crossbreed - mating two totally unrelated individuals from totally different breeds; \"potluck\" breeding.

Since all chickens are related to all chickens you can never have \"totally\" unrelated individuals.

I like those definitions. The problem I have found, is that outcrossing to someone else\'s strain of the same type results largely in linebreeding, not outcrossing. This is because so many show lines are closely related. People with the best show animals tend to be distributing these to other show breeders in much greater numbers than average. Gene pools can become quite narrow when a successful show person is also a breeder who distributes a lot of stock.

Linebreeding can be fairly effective in reducing immune system depression, but it is much more difficult to introduce desirable traits if they don\'t exist in the line, or if they don\'t exist in the exact form that you desire.

I have bred show guppies for many years and their color genetics is about a complex as an animal can get. Even so, linebreeding/inbreeding after an outcross usually results in true breeding lines after only 3 or 4 generations. From the outside looking in, they appear similar to chickens in that many of the traits are controlled by sex-linked genes. It would seem to me that proper selection for 3 or 4 generations after an outcross would control color on black roosters, but then again, I\'m only guessing since I\'ve never done it.

By the way, I\'m still interested in the goals of the ABC. Is there anything in writing on this?