Author Topic: Silver Standard Description  (Read 27504 times)

bantamhill

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Silver Standard Description
« Reply #30 on: September 18, 2005, 10:30:12 PM »
Quote from: Mike Gilbert
Unless the A.B.A. has put in a change without my knowing it the Ameraucana standard still refers to \"Silver\" not Silver Duckwing.   The latest version I have is the 1997 looseleaf edition.   On page 29 it refers the silver\'s description to the silver color as described on page 237.  That description calls for striping in the hackles, and the saddle description just says \"same as hackle.\"    They also describe the silver duckwing color as found in O.E. Games and a blue silver duckwing color which is essentially a blue version of silver duckwing.   They don\'t describe blue silver, but that would be just a blue version of silver.   Note that the color is blue silver, not silver blue which is a completely different color.


I read the description several times and I think the ABA description is the one we seem to talking about. It describes a silver head and distinct striping on the bottom hackles.

I assume everyone should bring the standards they own to the national for a fun discussion? I do not own the APA and have been working color-wise from the ABA standard.

Michael

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Silver Standard Description
« Reply #31 on: September 19, 2005, 11:54:30 AM »
From the posts over time and based on my own research into the issue, there are several things that are apparent:

1.  There are essentially three \"Silver\" patterns existing in the APA and ABA Standards - Silver Duckwing (clear silver hackles and saddles in males), Silver as in the APA Silver Leghorn (striped lower hackles and clear silver saddles) and then the Silver as generally listed by the ABA, with striping in hackles and saddles of males.

2.  The Leghorn contacts I have communicated with favor the APA Silver description, with the clear saddles, since it is akin to the Light Brown Leghorn pattern.  It is unlikely that the Leghorn folks will want to move toward the striped saddle and hackle version.

3.  The actual Silver Ameraucanas, as well as the illustration in the APA Standard, lean toward striping in hackle and saddle, making it contrary to the referenced Silver Leghorn pattern.  Who knows how that faux pas came about, but it is there.

4.  The APA does have the Silver Dutch pattern \"custom described\" with striped hackles and saddles on Silver males, and so while it may be somewhat after the fact, the Ameraucanas (and perhaps the Araucanas, where this whole Standard snipe hunt started) could explore referencing to the Silver Dutch pattern.  I don\'t see too much support from APA corners to craft yet another custom Silver pattern, and hopefully the Dutch Silver pattern is close enough for the purposes.

5.  Given that the current situation creates a conflict between the ABA and APA color for Silver Ameraucanas, perhaps the adjustment to reference a striped hackle/saddle could be done for both the bantam and large Ameraucanas in the interest of consistency and maybe correcting an initial oversight, but I\'ll need to confer with the rest of our committee on that one.  Since the current APA revisions are nearly through the pipeline of Standard process, it would seem better to try and take another approach to doing this if there is demonstrated consensus among Ameraucana breeders.

6.  As Mike noted, it doesn\'t sound like any move toward Silver Duckwing is desirable for Ameraucanas.  It is more a case of trying to tie up to an appropriate \"Silver\" pattern.

7.  I think the Silver Leghorn folks will likely have to live with the ABA/APA conflict for a bit, since it is unlikely that the ABA would move quickly toward designating a \"Silver as in Leghorn\" pattern like the APA has for them.

8.  Eight is my lucky number, so I\'ll stop here.  You have all done an excellent job as Ameraucana breeders and fans in taking my initial observation and discussing the situation and options.  Thanks!

Sam Brush


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Silver Standard Description
« Reply #32 on: September 19, 2005, 08:14:40 PM »
Quote from: Sam Brush
The APA does have the Silver Dutch pattern \"custom described\" with striped hackles and saddles on Silver males, and so while it may be somewhat after the fact, the Ameraucanas ... could explore referencing to the Silver Dutch pattern.


Just to stick my \"new to the breed\" two cents in, that\'s what I would prefer, for what it\'s worth.

Blue Egg Acres

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Silver Standard Description
« Reply #33 on: September 20, 2005, 11:53:33 AM »
Quote from: John

I would like to get some feedback on another thought.  The silver Leghorn male (APA p. 133) and the silver Ameraucana male (APA p. 197) both show the hackle striping on the lower hackle feathers, as the Standard calls for but my silver bantam and LF Ameraucana males have it all over their hackles & saddles like my brown red do.  Do the silver Leghorns really have it only on the lower half?  If so it is achievable. . . .  
 


This is a very good question. Does anyone have the answer?

John, when you say your males have full striping, do you mean that it starts on the head, or just high on the hackles?

John

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Silver Standard Description
« Reply #34 on: September 20, 2005, 12:34:28 PM »
From the head on down.  I don\'t remember seeing any with it just on the lower part of the hackles and saddles like the APA protrait shows.  That is why I brought it up.  I don\'t know if there is some gene that restricts the striping from the top of the hackles and saddles or if those that may look that way are really duckwing that isn\'t pure or what.  If other Ameraucana breeders have it I will have to optain birds from them to breed that pattern into my flock, but if it isn\'t out there I would have to maybe crossbred to bring it in and don\'t what to do that.

Blue Egg Acres

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Silver Standard Description
« Reply #35 on: September 20, 2005, 04:08:10 PM »
Quote from: Sam Brush


4.   . . . I don\'t see too much support from APA corners to craft yet another custom Silver pattern, and hopefully the Dutch Silver pattern is close enough for the purposes.




Do I understand correctly that even if we should want a silver description that allowed for \"full\" striping, we more than likely wouldn\'t be able to get it into the APA Standard? Would that opportunity exist at a future date?

John, I think that most of my cockerels have the striping from the head down as you describe, but I\'m pretty sure I have a few that come very close to the description of striping on the lower hackles/saddle only(I wish I could see them!) I\'ve been out with my camera again and here is a pic of one of them. What do you think? I\'m going to do a final cull soon and will pay close attention to the striping as I handle each one.

I will be bringing ALOT of extra silvers to the show that will be for sale.

Guest

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Silver Standard Description
« Reply #36 on: September 21, 2005, 07:08:00 AM »
What stripe?

My note about preference to not craft yet another Silver pattern variant ties to the fact that we are seeking to pinpoint an ideal description, and the convention over time has been to organize by similar styles of patterns.  The APA Silver Leghorn style has lower hackle striping and no saddle striping.  The Silver Dutch calls for lower hackle striping and saddle striping.  The ABA Silver pattern is essentially the same as the APA Silver Dutch - stripes in lower hackle and stripes in saddle.  The full hackle striping situation is more normally associated with the crow wing varities like Birchen and Brown Red.  Every kind of duckwing variety, whether it be the Game style of Black Breasted Red and Silver Duckwing with fully clear saddle and hackle, or the Light Brown Leghorn and Silver Leghorn style, where striping is ideally zoned in the lower hackle, does not use a full hackle stripe.  It would seem prudent to follow the tradition and either have the partial hackle stripe or perhaps none as in Silver Duckwing...but I don\'t think going to Silver Duckwing is what the group wants.  The photos of most of the males seem to show quite a bit of muddiness and variability, not only in the crispness of hackle striping, but across the back and into the saddle.  It seems like it would be best to view those as deviating from an ideal Standard of striping in the lower hackle.  In reality, however, hackle (neck) color is worth a whopping 5 points, and I\'m not sure how one could justify cutting a Silver male much if the stripes extend beyond the lower hackle as the Silver Dutch example might require.

Sam Brush

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Silver Standard Description
« Reply #37 on: September 21, 2005, 07:17:09 AM »
Female Silver color?  Other than a few comments about shafting being a problem in females, there has been a focus on male color.  There is a need to review the female color description for Silver Dutch to see how it might compare to the Ameraucanas.

Sam

Mike Gilbert

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Silver Standard Description
« Reply #38 on: September 24, 2005, 05:56:36 PM »
The Silver Dutch Standard would probably fit the Ameraucana Silver variety better than the Leghorn description.   The Dutch A.P.A. standard does call for some saddle striping in the males, and it allows for a greater latitude in the actual shade of grey in the females.   Plus it says that more attention is to be given to lack of shafting in the females than the actual shade of color.    I think I like it.   What do the rest of you think?

Mike Gilbert

bantamhill

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Silver Standard Description
« Reply #39 on: September 24, 2005, 09:50:07 PM »
My thoughts have been centering on the Silver Dutch and I think I am leaning that way after considering the comments of all.

Michael

grisaboy

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Silver Standard Description
« Reply #40 on: September 25, 2005, 08:20:46 PM »
I just sat down with my standard and compared the female silver color description  for five breeds. Silver Leghorn, Silver Gray Dorking, Silver Duckwing Modern Game, Silver Phoenix and Silver Dutch Bantam.  These birds all look pretty much the same but it is amazing how many different ways you can say the same thing.  I like the Silver Dutch description the best because of the emphasis on a uniform gray color on the back but not a specific shade of gray.  The only part I don\'t like is the breast color.  The Silver Dutch calls for a light salmon color on the breast.  I would prefer salmon or rich salmon as some of the other breeds call for.

Curtis  

bantamhill

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Silver Standard Description
« Reply #41 on: September 25, 2005, 09:57:40 PM »
I am once again refering to the ABA Standard . . . for Ameraucana Wheaten page 29 \"refer to wheaten color description, pag 248, except light creamy females . . . are to be preferred.\" I don\'t see why under the Silver Ameraucana we couldn\'t qualify a preference for the breast shade on the female and refer back to the Dutch description for the APA Standard . . . the ABA Standard has only one silver description. The presidence has been set to state a preferred shading on the female.

Michael

John

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Silver Standard Description
« Reply #42 on: September 26, 2005, 07:59:05 AM »
Quote
The only part I don\'t like is the breast color. The Silver Dutch calls for a light salmon color on the breast. I would prefer salmon or rich salmon as some of the other breeds call for.

Quote
I don\'t see why under the Silver Ameraucana we couldn\'t qualify a preference for the breast shade on the female and refer back to the Dutch description for the APA Standard . . .

I agree with Curtis and Michael.  No matter what description we use, we should \"qualify\" it as needed.

Guest

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Silver Standard Description
« Reply #43 on: October 22, 2005, 02:12:41 AM »
Hello everyone.
What a great discussion! It took me a bit to read through all of it but I think I\'m caught up now, lol.

Curtis brought something up earlier that I feel needs to be weighted in this discussion. The leghorn color/pattern of \"Silver\" and/or \"Silver Duckwing\". This color is based on the wild red junglefowl genes at two points on the chromosome. One point (locus) is for the wild type color called \"gold\", and refers to the sex linked gene for red or the alternate mutation of silver. The second point (locus) is for the wild type pattern called \"Black Breasted Red\" which is based on the E-locus gene \"e+\", the most recessive gene that can be present on this chromosome point. Together, these two genes can make BB reds or BB silvers (aka the Silver Duckwing or BB Red patterns).

This is completely different from the Ameraucana type of silver, which from what I understand is based on the E-locus allele (mutation) called birchen \"E^R\". In other words the leghorn silver duckwing (Silvers) and Black Breasted Reds are not based on the same gene as our Ameraucanas are, so perhaps we shouldn\'t try to force our birds to \"look\" like a Silver Leghorn.

This was a question that I was going to ask about, as I noticed that our Brown Reds had the upper chest lacing that\'s typical of a Brown red. Brown Reds are genetically a Red Birchen bird. So I was having a hard time figuring out why our Silvers weren\'t laced in their upper chests, as they are genetically Silver Birchen birds.

Ameraucana Brown Reds should really only differ from the Silvers in color, not pattern. So I guess my opinion would lean toward making our Silvers appear much as our Brown Reds do, just with the silver color instead of the red color.

I hope that made sense, I\'m a bit over due for some sleep, lol.

Regards,
Dan Demarest
Missouri

John

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Silver Standard Description
« Reply #44 on: October 22, 2005, 11:47:15 AM »
Quote
Ameraucana Brown Reds should really only differ from the Silvers in color, not pattern. So I guess my opinion would lean toward making our Silvers appear much as our Brown Reds do, just with the silver color instead of the red color.

I have had bantam brown red sports from using a black male over silver females and have thought about crossing LF brown reds with silvers to hopfully make some improvements with the silvers.  As I read the descriptions though, It appears that our silver pattern is the same as light brown and not brown red.  Years ago I had what I thought was a very nice silver bantam cockerel, but it was pointed out to me that he lacked white in his wing bays.  I think I still have a photo of him on our photos page of this site.  Our silvers seem to have the full hackle and saddle striping like the brown red pattern, but the wing bay colored like the light brown pattern using silver instead of gold of course.
About 20 years ago I got my first silvers from eggs that came form Jerry Segler.  They were not as good as what we have today.  They were in between size birds and I used them to breed for both bantams and LF.  I\'ve used OE silver duckwing a few times with the bantams, along with crossing them with whites, blacks and LF silvers.  The white/silver cross produced some blues.  I used a OE LF silver male early on to breed up the size to get LF.  Since then I\'ve also intoduced a silver male from Wayne Meredith, a part Leghorn female from Mike Gilbert and crossed to my LF blacks to improve type.