Barred Ameraucana

[Mike Gilbert]

If \"Muffy\" is barred she will throw the barring gene to all her MALE offspring, but not to her female offspring.  If she is mated to a non-barred male, all the male offspring will be barred (poorly) but their female offspring will not be.   This is an Ameraucana discussion board but we are talking about easter eggers.   There is a genetics forum at the Classroom at the Coop discussion board for poultry genetics at:   www.the-coop.org .

[Guest]

I apologize for posting EE here. I thought it was okay because the thread was already there and appeared to be an okay discussion. Muffy has three offspring hatched so far. One appears no barring gene, one appears middle of the road, and one appears like a barred male. Here is a pic of the middle of the road one hatched two days ago.



I am not trying to be obtuse. If you would rather I not post about Muffy and her babies, someone hold up a big cue card for me and i\'ll mosey on... Thanks for those that shared info.
Patty

[Guest]

The Poultry Improvement forum is open to any project you would like to bring up and discuss. Here is the address. There are two other forums that deal with wyandottes. I am a moderator of the Improvement Forum. The forum is new.

http://bluelacedred.com/forum/index.php

Tim

[John]

Patty,

Anything that relates to Ameraucana chickens, the ABC or it\'s members is fine to post on this forum in my opinion.  There is no reason to exclude discussion about Easter Eggers, other breeds and varieties as they relate to the development of the different Ameraucana varieties.  
When it comes to questions about crossing birds that are not part of a breeding program to improve or develop varieties of Ameraucana they are better asked on some of the generic poultry forums that deal with just about anything related to poultry.  Forums such as http://www.the-coop.org/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi will give those questions the best opportunity to receive comments and input from others.  Likewise questions dealing with specific breeds are best asked on the forums of the breed clubs represented by them.
From previous topics I know that most of us feel Easter Eggers are great for a backyard or barnyard flock, but of course not for exhibition.  When they are exhibited they are often entered as Ameraucanas or Araucanas and that hurts the efforts of both breeds and clubs that represent them.  Part of our mission statement talks about encouraging the continued improvement of Ameraucanas and that is the primary goal of this forum, but we stray a little off topic from time to time.

Sincerely,

[Guest]

Can someone clarify?

Muffy would not have autosomal genes because her barring comes from Marans, right? So the dark color in her legs would be only in the scales, not the shanks (which would be required for acceptance as an Ameraucana color variety)?

Does her barring being sex-linked mean her male offspring would not be barred? If so, what color would they likely be?

Muffy is an amazing looking bird! If only I could take on another color of Ameraucanas... Gotta discipline myself, though  :rolleyes: Patty, I hope you can link up with some others and have fun breeding this unique, pretty pattern!

I think Muffy more likely got her barring from a Barred Rock. since the cuckoo marans barring is more v-shaped and distinctive. It will be interesting to see if her chicks end up with more of a barred or cuckoo patterns.

I do not plan to mess up the Ameraucana breed with misrepresentation or showing Muffy as one. My offer still stands to trade or make available eggs to anyone working on this color, which it seems will never be accepted until the standard is changed to allow for reality of the laws of genetics as it applies to sex-linked barring. The likelihood of a wide genetic based group of breeders using dominant barring is probably profoundly unlikely, just from what I have read here. Thanks all for your input.

[Guest]

Muffy has three offspring hatched so far. One appears no barring gene, one appears middle of the road, and one appears like a barred male. Here is a pic of the middle of the road one hatched two days ago.

Hi Patty -  if I understand what is going on here then Muffy had a Marans (or some kind of sex-linked barred roo) daddy AND she was loose with roos who have sex-linked barring (Cuckoo Marans) one of which might be the daddy of these babies... right?

If so, then your \"middle of the road\" barred baby might be a pullet and the other that \"appears to be a barred male\" may be exactly that.  Correctly barred males (who have 2 copies of the barring gene, one from mama and one from papa) have larger white spots on the tops of their heads.

[Guest]

I think Muffy more likely got her barring from a Barred Rock. since the cuckoo marans barring is more v-shaped and distinctive. It will be interesting to see if her chicks end up with more of a barred or cuckoo patterns.

I think (maybe Tim can correct me if I am wrong) that the same barring gene causes the barred pattern in Barred Rock birds AND the cuckoo pattern in Cuckoo Marans.

The difference in the patterns comes from the speed of the feathering.  Marans are SUPPOSED to be fast-feathering... because the feathers grow really fast, the pattern is uneven, giving the cuckoo pattern.  Barred Rock birds have normal or perhaps even slow feathering genes - this allows a more homogeneous pattern of barring to develop.

[Mike Gilbert]

The Poultry Improvement forum is open to any project you would like to bring up and discuss. Here is the address. There are two other forums that deal with wyandottes. I am a moderator of the Improvement Forum. The forum is new.

http://bluelacedred.com/forum/index.php

Tim

Tim\'s suggestion is a good one.  I feel he is much more knowledgable about poultry genetics than anyone here.

[Guest]

I find it unfortunate that the ABC does not broaden it\'s interpretation of the Standard when it comes to leg color.  I\'m not suggesting that genetically yellow ,green or white should be allowed in to the standard, but a bird with genetically slate legs that final leg color is dilluted by another gene should be considered.   This would include dominate white and sex link barring.

Dominate white on Wheaten creates a stunning looking hen, and Red Pyle males.  If introduce to the Black Gold may create a breath taking bird.

Barring can be used for Barred or Crele also on Wheaten instead of wild type if so desired.

glen

[Mike Gilbert]

When the same is done for old established breeds like Hamburgs, Campines, Polish, Andalusions, Lakenvelders, La Fleche, and others - then I think we will consider it for Ameraucanas.  Some of us feel we have plenty of varieties already - especially considering the lack of exhibitors and breeders for some of our existing varieties.    Any one is free to play around with whatever combination of varieties of easter eggers you want.    You are also free to create your own breed and go through the process of getting it admitted to the standards as we did.     And you are certainly free to express your opinions here, but so are the rest of us.   And I certainly don\'t agree to opening up the standard to foreign shank colors.    The gene for sex-linked barring requires slow feathering to get proper, distinct barring.   Slow feathering leads to feather picking when those birds are raised with fast feathering varieties.    How many barred rocks do we see at the shows?   Not very many at the ones I attend.   So why do we need another barred breed?   For that matter, how many fast feathering cuckoo Dominiques do we see?   I attended the Ohio National when they qualified Blue Jersey Giants.   There were a ton of them there.   I also attended the qualifying meet for black crested white Polish in Minnesota in 1996.   I havent seen a Blue Giant or a black crested white Polish at a show since.   None of the sex-linked barred breeds are very popular.     I think at this point we need to concentrate on improving what we have, and to get the more popular varieties like lavender and splash admitted to the standard.    You are entitled to your opinion, as I am mine.

[Guest]

WOW,  Sorry if i hit a nerve.   I respect all the work and effort that has been put into this hobby of ours, by all if it\'s founding members.  I don\'t raise or show Hamburgs, Campines, Polish, Andalusions, Lakenvelders, or La Fleche, so I\'m not having this discussion with any of their breeders.  Apparently others feel there are not enough varieties or they would not continue to work on developing them.  I\'m not trying to undermine all the work and time that went into the development of the Ameraucana.  
I agree with improving what is established, but to improve Silvers there is nothing in the same e locus (e+) to breed to, no BB REd.  To improve the Brown Red (eb), no Birchen, no Lemon Blue ect.  So a breeder can create his/her own to breed back to, but can not show it as an Ameraucana.  I like the rest of you, like to show off my accomplishments.

The greater the variety the great the interest.
The greater the interest the greater the number of breeders.
The greater the number of breeders the greater the quality.
The greater the quality, the greater the interest.

I\'d like to see the interest in Ameraucana\'s as well as the ABC grow in a positive way.  One way would be with positive encouragement of others endeavors, not redirecting them to alternative discussions, perhaps never to return.   Guide them not discourage them.

glen

[Mike Gilbert]

\"Guide them not discourage them.  \"    That is exactly what I\'m attempting to do.   But neither is it kind to foster false or unrealistic expectations.    It does not serve the best interest of the breed to say \"anything and everything is acceptable,\"  or \"we really need about 30 new varieties\" when we really don\'t.   The judges and members have enough trouble as it is trying to discern what is proper eye color and proper leg color so it would be counterproductive to confuse them further.   There has to be a balance between what is good for the breed and what enthusiastic new members would like.   I have raised birds with slow feathering, and it led to cannibalism.    It\'s not good for this breed, as fast feathering has more advantages.    Am I passionate about this issue and this breed?    I\'ve been raising them nearly 35 years now, so you might say that.   Thanks for listening to a cranky old troll, and have a good day.

[Guest]

not all barreds have fast feathering gene or are canibals. and Ford motor company almost went under before it got going because he would only paint his cars black. I\'m not campaigning for more colors, am not a memeber of the association, have never had chickens before Februaryof this year, but am trying as hard as I can to learn as much as I can (and spend as much as I can- WAIT! That part I am doing without trying.) I am new to chickens but not new to breeding. I have bred world class paint horses for twenty years, as well as several breeds of dogs at different levels. I FULLY respect your consevation and protection of the breed from \"junk genes\"  and fully understand and respect that barring is just a bad idea from your perspective. But basically your breed only has a few varietes, and to be honest, they are BORING. I looked at the photos and it is like looking at a big shoe sale after all the morning rush is over. Sure, there are a lot of shoes left for sale, like size 4, 9EEEE, and 12, most with clunky heels. Not saying the birds aren\'t beautiful, it is just that there are so few varieties that I can\'t believe they haven\'t been \"perfected\" after 35 years. Maybe they could have come a lot farther a lot faster with a wider pallete to choose from. Just my (sure to be shot down) two cents worth.

[Mike Gilbert]

Onthespot, your first sentence makes no sense whatsoever.   Did you read the preceding posts?   How easy it is to criticize.   If these are \"boring\" to you as you say, there are plenty of other breeds out there to choose from.  Why don\'t you start a new breed, develop 8 or more varieties in large fowl and the same number in bantams, then let us know how long it takes you to perfect them.   And you have to start with mixed genetics mongrels.  By the way, did you know chickens have 39 chromosome pairs?   Humans have 23.   I\'m not sure how many your hayburners have.    Frankly, I find these comments from johnny come lately commentators rather amusing.

[Guest]

How many barred rocks do we see at the shows? Not very many at the ones I attend.

Well i guess you missed the Ohio National today, where there was 32 bantam and 19 large fowl Barred Rocks exhibited in the open show, while there was far fewer Ameraucanas shown 7 bantams and 14 large in the entire show including Juniors.  So it looks like some people have figured out how not to over crowd their cannibalistic birds so they can reach adulthood.  
And for the record no one called you old, cranky, or a troll.  Don\'t be so harsh on yourself.

peace
glen