Ameraucana Breeders Club
The Official Forum of the Ameraucana Breeders Club => Breeding => Topic started by: angora831 on November 04, 2009, 03:52:33 PM
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For a while now I have been re-reading previous threads in the Forum, mainly to get more information on the genetics of certain traits and colors. In a thread on the lavender color a couple of years ago, there was a comment made that there were presently no brown varieties based on the E-locus gene. The person went on to say that if he were to create one it would be partridge. This stuck a cord with me because I had been looking for more information on a blue partridge Ameraucana that I had seen offered on an egg auction site.
I would like to attempt to work on this Partridge Ameraucana project and it was suggested that I post my questions on the Forum to see what response and ideas that I get. I have found only four breeds that have the partridge variety. Chantecler, Cochin, Plymouth Rock, and Wyandotte. All of these would bring light brown egg color, yellow legs, and different combs to a cross with a quality black Ameraucana.
Knowing that this is a long term project, I wanted to get as much information and/or suggestions from the Forum. I know that there are super genetics people out there as well as breeders that have been around Ameraucanas from day 1. What are the pros and cons of this idea as you see it?
Thanks in advance
Ken
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Ken, it would be a very long term project involving raising hundreds culls. But if you have the time and commitment, go for it. Of the breeds mentioned, partridge plymouth rock is probably the closest in type, and single comb is not that difficult to breed out. Down the line when you are getting close to what you want, it will take test mating of all your breeders to eliminate the recessive yellow epidermis gene.
Are you familiar with what it takes to have a new variety admitted to the A.P.A. Standard of Perfection? The requirements are listed in the bylaws, and they are published in the annual yearbook. Which, by the way, was out in a timely fashion this year for the first time in recent memory.
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Ken,
I have a another way to produce your birds. Cross a gold brabanter to the black ameraucana. Brabanter lay a white egg, have muffs and beard, and have blue shanks and white skin. You will have to breed out the crest and two genes called dark brown and the melanotic gene. You will have to breed in the blue egg shell gene.
The white egg will get you away from green eggs.
Another cross would be to a gold campine. You would have to breed in muffs and beard and the blue egg shell gene. Skin and shanks are the same. You will have to breed out one gene- the dark brown gene.
You can email me if you have more questions.
tadkerson@netzro.com
Tim
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Are Brabanters available in this country? I have never seen one at a show - or anywhere else. I don\'t know anything about their genetics. The Campine, according to Jeffrey, does not have pattern gene (Pg) in its genetic roadmap, and Pg is an essential component of the partridge color pattern. Or is there something more recent that indicates so? The Campine is smaller in weight than Ameraucana and has white earlobes. From what I have heard it has a flighty temperament also; there is more than color to consider. Unless Brabanter are available I think I would prefer to work with the Partridge Plymouth Rock on such a project. I should think it would be possible to find a couple of females that lay only a very light tinted egg.
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I think you might find e>b floating around in some easter egger flocks. Especially some of the older (less corrupted flocks) like Murray McMurray. Some of these have e>b, but they don\'t have the PG gene to get the partridge color.
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I appreciate the ideas and know that there is a long road ahead if this project is pursued. At this point of year I don\'t think that a whole lot can be done, except some exploring into what each breed brings to the table and then starting on a course to get things rolling. I need to get better acquainted with the genetics(college genetics seems so long ago). That is what I am looking at now. I don\'t know if I can find the right partridge variety birds now, but I am looking at my black pullets and hens to see what we have to work with. If there is something that is worth doing it is worth doing well, so I want to get all of my proverbial eggs in order before moving on. Keep the thoughts coming.
Ken
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I am only going to learn if I ask questions, so here goes. In a cross with a Partridge Rock to a black Ameraucana one can expect the Partridge bird to carry eb eb, ss or s-, and PgPg. This would be the gold side of the variety. If a cross was to be made with a Silver Penciled Rock you could expect the bird to contribute eb eb, SS or S- and PgPg. This would be from the silver side. In either case the Partridge gene is contributed to the cross. Would there be a advantage or disadvantage in using the silver over the gold or vice versa in a cross to arrive at a Partridge Ameraucana?
Thanks,
Ken
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I\'m tuning in to your post because I am working on partridge araucanas. I have obtained a nice partridge rock hen to use mostly as a visual reference for color and feather pattern. Quite interesting is she lays an almost white egg, not brown at all. I have no plans to cross her into my araucanas for now, however I do have a good black tufted cockerel.
If I ever obtain a breeder quality black ameraucana cock I may join you in this project.
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Are Brabanters available in this country? I have never seen one at a show - or anywhere else. I don\'t know anything about their genetics. The Campine, according to Jeffrey, does not have pattern gene (Pg) in its genetic roadmap, and Pg is an essential component of the partridge color pattern. Or is there something more recent that indicates so? The Campine is smaller in weight than Ameraucana and has white earlobes. From what I have heard it has a flighty temperament also; there is more than color to consider. Unless Brabanter are available I think I would prefer to work with the Partridge Plymouth Rock on such a project. I should think it would be possible to find a couple of females that lay only a very light tinted egg.
Brabanter are in the USA I have had them in the past. I will have to disagree with Jeffrey ( so does Smyth and Carefoot), Campines do contain the pattern gene.
Tim
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Would there be a advantage or disadvantage in using the silver over the gold or vice versa in a cross to arrive at a Partridge Ameraucana?
If you are trying to get partridge, you would get there quicker using gold (partridge) birds. Personally, I would cross the partidge rocks with wheatons. That way you know what you are starting with. It is hard to tell what colors or patterns are underneath a black or a white bird. Brown Red would probably work, but they are not as common and do not have as good type as the wheatons.
If you have the space, I would cross both was PR males to Wheaton females (pen A) and wheaton males to PR females (pen B).
You don\'t need too many in the first cross. Just a few males and females from each pen.
Next generation cross pen A males to pen B females and vice versa. Hatch a lot from this generation, as many as you have space for. You will hatch a lot of yellow-white chicks and a few brown chicks. Only keep the brown chicks. These are eb and the start of your patridge Ameraucanas.
Grow out as many of the brown chicks as you can. You will need to cull hard, but may not be able to tell which are best until they get older.
You will need to cull for color, yellow legs (recessive so will be carried by those without), light legs versus slate legs, combs, beards, egg color (blue vs green, non blue/green) and Ameraucana shape and size. ( Actually using Plymouth Rocks should help with size).
Subsequent generations, breed best to best and continue to hatch a lot and cull hard.
After your fourth generation, you may want to get a few white leghorns to progeny test your birds. They will help you find many of the lingering recessive genes. You don\'t want to keep any of the leghorn crosses for your breeding flock, but you will want to raise some of the pullets to laying age to test for egg color.
Once you have a nice flock of Partridge Ameraucanas, then you can start lobbying your fellow club members to help you get them into the standard. That is another multi-year project.
Curtis
p.s - You could also start this process using hatchery Easter Eggers for the first cross to Partridge Rocks. I would only use brown hens and black breasted red males. It may take a little longer this way, but not much. Still mostly comes down to hatching a lot and culling a lot. (hope you like to eat chicken)
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With all the talk about projects, I wanted to bump up my favorite one and ask how it\'s going. :D
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The project continues to progress. I have hatched some chicks from the F1 crosses. I really need to get pictures up on the Forum but the cord for the camera is missing. More than likely a small grandchild type person has put it somewher really neat so Grandpa can\'t find it.
Any way out of the dozen or so eggs that have hatched so far I have a yellow color on the one end of the range and a dark almost mahogany on the other end of the spectrum. These dark ones should be my Partridge Ameraucana chicks. These chicks have darker legs, I wouldn\'t really call them slate at this time. The chicks that are in between these two colors are all over the palate in color shades. Some lighter some darker, not really brown and not near yellow either.
I will work on getting some pictures up when I get the cord in need for the camera. Another trip to Radio Shack.
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More than likely a small grandchild type person has put it somewher really neat so Grandpa can\'t find it.
I feel your pain - we once found Mike\'s cell phone in a pickle barrel (the kind with the 2 piece lid) that I kept in the pasture as a goat toy. And I\'ve given up hope of ever finding my wedding band. I was actually giving chase when that one went poof...
Can\'t wait to see the pictures, and to see how they feather out!
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I may be starting more controversy, I hope not, with all the bickering on other topics on this forum. I am of the opinion, and doubt I can be persuaded to change my mind. Grandkids are great, even awesome! I really think its the parents fault not us grandparents or grandkids. I\'m already doing all I can to spoil them! Enough said!
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Lol, I AM the parent!! And no argument here, he is awesome. He is also smarter than we are, and there-in lies the problem! :p
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This picture stuff is above my skill level. Had to get help from the wife. These are two of the darker chicks that are showing the partridge markings. Right now these are the only two out of around 3 dozen eggs that were set. Only 15 got to hatching. Lots of lighter chicks and other shades. More hatchings every day. I think I have got past the fertility problems. We\'ll see.
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Beautiful!! These are F2s, right? I hope at some point I can work with you on these - of all the colors chickens come in, partridge is probably my favorite.
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Ken, the better the barring when they are chicks, the better the pencilling will be on the females when they mature. It looks like you are making progress.
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Ken,
What was your first cross on this project? Specifically male to female.
I notice you have single combed and clean faced offspring.
I would like to find out if there is a correlation between male and female crosses and resulting offspring with pea combs and beards and muffs.
I don\'t know if I have just been lucky, but I haven\'t gotten any single combs with my crosses yet. I had a few clean faced birds in the F1\'s, but didn\'t use them to further the project. I have gotten some clean faced in the F2\'s, but that is because some of the pullets I am using must only have one copy of the beard and muff gene. (an issue to work out in my current line of bantam blacks)
The above results are from my bantam cross only, I just started my large fowl project and don\'t have enough data to confirm anything. I am breeding them differently because there is no size issue and will have quicker results.
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The initial crosses were LF Black Ameraucana cocks over LF Partridge Plymouth Rock hens. These were probably 75% of my matings last year. I did get a Partride Rock rooster late and he was bred with LF Black Ameraucana hens. Most of the F1 pullet chicks that I kept from both crosses along with the cockerals were selected for leg color and size. All had some muffs and beards, some to a greater degree than others and I did not keep any that were clean faced. The F1 cockeral/cock used in this mating has a pea type comb. That was one of the reasons I kept him along with his leg color. Other than these two chicks above I only hatched another partridge the other day. It is going to be a numbers game and I have plenty of eggs in the incubator. Fingers crossed and some more partridge are on the way.
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A question for the genetics gurus out there. In my cross of Partridge Plymouth Rock x Black Ameraucana I know that in theory I should get 25% that will be Partridge Ameraucana and at this point 25% that are pretty much yellow in color with my F1 crosses.. I am getting what appear to be blue chicks, chicks that are all black and some that are a darker brown without the partridge markings at this time. Genetically speaking what colors could I expect from the middle 50% of the crosses that would be heterozygous(???) from the F1 breedings.
This is all new ground for me and I know except for the Partridge chicks the others will be mutts, but just thought a question in theoretical genetics would be interesting.
Ken
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Ken,
Have you used the kip calculator???
http://kippenjungle.nl/kruising.html?mgt=Sloc:s+/s+,Iloc:i+/i+,Eloc:E^R/E^R&fgt=Sloc:s+/-,Iloc:i+/i+,Eloc:e+/e+
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A question for the genetics gurus out there. In my cross of Partridge Plymouth Rock x Black Ameraucana I know that in theory I should get 25% that will be Partridge Ameraucana and at this point 25% that are pretty much yellow in color with my F1 crosses.. I am getting what appear to be blue chicks, chicks that are all black and some that are a darker brown without the partridge markings at this time. Genetically speaking what colors could I expect from the middle 50% of the crosses that would be heterozygous(???) from the F1 breedings.
Ken, that 25% ratio applies only to each of the different genes need to make partridge color. If you do the math you will see how unlikely it is to get all the right genes in one individual. But don\'t be discouraged; you knew this would not be easy. You will get a spectrum of colors by breeding the F-1\'s to each other. I think I might have bred the F-1\'s back to their parents to get quicker results on the feather coloring, and saved the ones with necessary Ameraucana traits like hetero pea combs, dark legs, green eggs, muffs. Unless you plan to hatch many hundreds of chicks this year, you may well be forced to use some F-2\'s next time that are less than optimal with regard to feather coloring. Don\'t be too picky on color this year, otherwise you will run into too-close inbreeding very soon in the project. We\'re pulling for you.
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Mike, thanks for the encouragement, it is appreciated. In the dark chicks I only have 3 that have shown the partridge markings. Are you saying that the other dark brown chicks could also be \"Partridge\" even though the penciling is not showing? As someone mentioned these 3 partridge chicks that I do have are clean faced and appear to be single combed. Leg color appears to be dark and not yellow. The F1 hens have muffs and beards and are laying mostly blue eggs. An occasional greenish one pops up from time to time.
I still have the original Partridge Rock cock and hens and a few of the Black Ameraucana hens, but no Black Ameraucana cock. I still can breed the F1 back to the originals. Are you suggesting breeding back to the Rocks or Ameraucanas or both to work on the Ameraucana traits and/or color? Thanks for the help, it is always appreciated.
Ken
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Are you saying that the other dark brown chicks could also be \"Partridge\" even though the penciling is not showing?
Ken,
I know Mike mentioned \"partridge color\" and I\'m sure that you two are on the same page with this topic.
I just want to mention something that can be confusing with some variety names. Wheaten and birchen are names of varieties (colors/patterns), but also names of the e-locus genes that those varieties and others are based on.
The partridge variety is based on brown (eb), but some used to call this e-locus gene partridge (ep).
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Ken, no, what I\'m saying is that some of those brown chicks will be carrying some of the necessary components to make the partridge color, but not all of the components. The e-locus gene is e^b, but then you have pattern gene (Pg) and mahogany (Mh) as well. All are inherited independently of each other. So instead of 25%, it is 25% X 25% X 25%. That comes out to less than 2 truly partridge chicks per 100 hatched. But since Mh and Pg are dominant genes, you will get more that show evidence of pencilling, but will be heterozygous; they won\'t breed true for those genes. Without looking it up, I don\'t remember if there are any more or not, so somebody can jump in here and help. But they all need to be homozygous (two copies, one from each parent) in order to get a good partridge color that consistently throws good partridge offspring.
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I have been reading these posts and finally decided to look up what \"partridge\" was. Wow I love those markings!
Why am I attracted to the impossible long shots? lol
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So instead of 25%, it is 25% X 25% X 25%. That comes out to less than 2 truly partridge chicks per 100 hatched.
I remember when I was developing the bantam lavenders I had a 1 in 16 chance of getting a chick with two (maybe more as I recall) of the characteristics required. I hatched lots of chicks that year and got one!
Do your homework and don\'t give up easily.
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That makes it clearer to me now. I guess I got my 2 out of 100 from the first dozen or so eggs that hatched. On to the next 100!
Back to breeding the F1s back to the original parents. I am trying to wrap my head around the genetics. I definitely want to intensify the Ameraucana traits that these F2 chicks seem to be lacking. I get the impression that these are easier to get, except maybe leg color by going back to good black Ameraucanas. On the flip side if I go back and breed with Partridge Rock stock to possibly bring in more color and pencilling do I then stand the chance of also bringing in stronger yellowing in the legs? Does one breeding go before the other?
I am going to hang on to some of the F2 darker chicks to see how they turn out. If they are heterozygous for the Pg gene and I breed them back to Partridge Rocks that should again increase the chances for homozygous Pg. That may be too simple, but that is what I am thinking right now. The deeper I get into this project the more \"stuff\" I have to contend with, but what else do I have to do make life exciting on the prairie? As always, thanks again folks, your advice is super.
Ken
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On the flip side if I go back and breed with Partridge Rock stock to possibly bring in more color and pencilling do I then stand the chance of also bringing in stronger yellowing in the legs? Does one breeding go before the other?
Ken the gene for yellow skin epidermis is present in all your F1\'s from the initial cross; it is recessive and does not show because there is only one copy instead of the necessary two that would make it show. If you are careful to use only those birds from the F2 generation without yellow skin, the cross back to Partridge Rocks will result in half with yellow shank epidermis and half without. All those without will be like the F1\'s : carriers. That is something you can breed out later through test matings. As long as you are not breeding crosslings with yellow skin you will make progress.
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2 out of 100
If it makes you feel any better that\'s about the same ratio of \'keepers\' I\'m getting in my w/bw/sw. ;) Hang in there, this is a great project and it sounds like you are making progress!
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Someone on BYC has an easter egger that really looks partridge to me. What do you think about that bird? It even looks like it has slate legs and a nice beard and muff. I wonder who bred these birds? It doesn't sound like the poster got the birds from a hatchery. Doesn't it look like someone was working on partridge?
http://www.backyardchickens.com/t/273489/the-ee-braggers-thread/6410
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I saw that picture on BYC and thought it was such a nice looking EE. I'm playing around with some things in my EE pen to see what comes out and to learn more about how the genetics work. I feel like there's lower stakes with that, somehow. I've admired the Partridge Plymouth Rocks at the Fair and would be tempted if the males didn't look drab by comparison. I guess it's nice to have one variety where the female plumage is flashy!
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Doesn't it look like someone was working on partridge?
A lot of breeds / varieties have been crossed into Easter Eggers. Since they are not a standard breed, there are no 'rules' on what can be crossed in. In my opinion, this makes them a great genetic reservoir for breeders who are trying to develop new varieties. You might have to sift through a lot of junk to find the traits you are looking for, but most already have breards, peacombs and blue or green eggs.
Curtis
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But then you have alot of genetic "garbage" to weed out. There could be all kinds of recessive stuff that could pop out in a project a year or two down the line using an ee. I would prefer to know what possibilities exist before I start a project.
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But then you have alot of genetic "garbage" to weed out. There could be all kinds of recessive stuff that could pop out in a project a year or two down the line using an ee. I would prefer to know what possibilities exist before I start a project.
That is definitely something to think about. It is good to be able to get an idea of what your genetic odds are.
But then it might be kinda fun just to see what you get? lol...
I have this easter egger that I think must have some sort of pattern genes.. I wondered about test breeding her just for my own education to see what is in her. But I don't know enough to figure out what I would test breed her with...or what the results would even mean. ;D
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But then you have alot of genetic "garbage" to weed out. There could be all kinds of recessive stuff that could pop out in a project a year or two down the line using an ee. I would prefer to know what possibilities exist before I start a project.
These kind of projects are definitely not for those looking for instant gratification. Sometimes those recessive genes that pop out are gold nuggets and not always garbage.
Curtis
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I guess I should say more power to ya if you have a bird to work with that has some of the traits that we are looking for in a partridge. I know that out of 200+ chicks in my F2 cross only 1 or 2 have the making for the partridge markings without yellow legs. A few others I will keep around to see how they fill out, the others will be sold at a local poultry auction. Amen to what Curtis said. There is no instant gratification in this project, but there is hope that sooner or later the right birds will hatch and we will be on our way. I just hope it happens sooner than later because the wife can be patient only so long with my birds all over the place.
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http://www.thepoultrygarden.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=11011
Scroll down to the adult pictures. This breed is similar in body to the Ameraucana with white eggs and a beard. Legs look dark slate or black, and have a rose comb. They have been recently imported by Greenfire Farms and they put pictures of their male on Facebook. He is beautiful, they don't have them available yet but something to look forward to.
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Very interesting! Would love to learn more about these birds.
As an aside, I noticed where you live - do you happen to know Gretta & Tony Bruno?
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I'm afraid not. Do they show?
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No, she just has some layers. He sells dairy equipment/supplies.
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We are into our 5th day of 100 degree + temps with at least two more ahead and it is taking a toll on the birds. I lost 7 birds in one day and they were all adult Partridge Rocks. 6 adult hens and Bubba the rooster just couldn't handle the heat. Even with fans and misters. I guess, fortunately, I have some chicks out of them and crosses with Ameraucans from this late spring that are growing fine and appear to be taking the heat a little better. Just need to grow the chicks up and see what we have to offer. The chicks from the earlier crosses of the F1s have the Partridge pattern, all shades of mahogany/brown, but there is only one that has darker legs. The later chicks from crosses of the F1 back to original stock still appear to have the pattern, but there may be a few more that will have the right leg color. Beards and muffs appear to be there, to what degree we will have to see.
Be cool!
Ken
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So sorry to hear that, Ken. I'm headed out now to do some rearranging to take advantage of a shaded barn. This weather is so tough on birds.
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No, Dorothy, I don't think we are in Kansas anymore. I think Texas moved north and brought its weather with it! Just looked at the weather channel and we are going to have another week of 100+ weather. This is like August weather for us. Spring came early, which brought in Summer early, so maybe we will have snow in September! Could happen you know???????????????
Kwn
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I hear ya' - heat index was 114 yesterday. A friend posted a picture on FB of a church sign that read: Satan called. He wants his weather back!
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We had a great spring all things considered. It was a little cooler than normal some days and then Bam! We move into record breaking temps. Its been 104 real temps for the last few days which is above the all time record. The birds can't find enough shade. On our east porch in the shade this afternoon its even 98. They just stand panting with their wings spread like Johnny said. Hopefully it will cool off before we have any more losses. A friend's a/c is not working, one company said they could come out Tues afternoon. Anyone in Alaska have room for an old Curmudgeon with several hundred birds?
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I hear ya' Don - I want to be the reverse snow-bird: I want to head north for the summer! Yesterday I lost a nice buff hen and the hardest blow of all, Felix, my buff cock and favorite bird on the place. I don't get attached to many, and this is why...
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The heat here in Virginia has been terrible, too. On top of that, a mob of raccoons ripped through the wire of my grow-out pen and killed all of my spring hatch. Because of the heat, they were all nestled on the ground trying to stay cool. Once again, I am going to have to start over from scratch with my Silvers. Maybe the third time's the charm?
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Oh, Erica, that is just heartbreaking! I am so sorry...
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Thanks, Beth. We had quite the adventure yesterday evening- apparently one of my silver pullets escaped the melee! She was running alongside my car as we came down the driveway around 8 o'clock last night. I don't know if she fluttered out through the ripped wire, got carried off but escaped, or what but I sure was glad to see her. After that 100 degree heat yesterday she was very thirsty, otherwise she was just a little raggedy in the feathers. So, not a total loss after all. I don't want to go off on too much of a tangent in this Partridge thread, so back to the business :-)
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I am sorry to hear of your coon issues. I am up to 18 racoons and keeping the traps baited. I too lost all of my spring hatch but three . . . 138.
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I lost my #1 Blue cock to a racoon a month ago. At least I have about 15 of his cockerells 5 weeks to 13 weeks old to see if I can replace him. Also some prospects from chicks that I bought from Paul Smith this spring. There was some talk of caps for the club earlier. With all the posts on racoon problems, any thoughts of coon skin caps. Sounds like Michael could be a good source for starts.
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^bump!
Hello, Ken.
Is there any further development in 2015 on your LF partridge project?
I recently joined ABC but I have been following this topic for about a year.
I'll be joining you on partridge eventually, but I am currently experimenting with EEs. I think I could have both eb and Pg in 6 of my 2015 (hatchery- Dunlap) pullets (ER/eb, or e+/eb/Ml), and two older hens Fall 2013/ Spring 2014 (e+/eb?) from a hen purchased from a local 'breeder'; and I will attempt to segregate for eb by mating with an eWh cock next spring. (Or they could be ER/e+/Ml, time will tell!)
Thank you for your posts!