Ameraucana Breeders Club
The Official Forum of the Ameraucana Breeders Club => Breeding => Topic started by: Jean on November 26, 2011, 12:11:04 PM
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The first visible chocolate project ameraucana bantam chick; she is 75% ameraucana:
(http://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/uploads/5845_chocamer1.jpg)
And a hatchmate for color comparison:
(http://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/uploads/5845_chocamer.jpg)
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Way to go Jean.I noticed on the choc orp chicks you had at Indy the legs have a choc cast to them.Do they retain this as adults?
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Yep, they do.
I haven\'t planned on getting them recognized because of that. I knew going in they would have chocolate colored legs.
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Very pretty!!!
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Super cute! Congrats!
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How about calling the legs chocolate slate :) Still solid with color.
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I agree slate should be part of the leg description.Possibly slate with a chocolate tint.The gene that turns black to chocolate also affects leg color.You could still cross to black for improvements and have blacks that are showable.We would only be admitting a genetic reality not corrupting the gene pool.
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Updated photo of our little girl:
(http://www.backyardchickens.com/image/id/6168564/width/346/height/428/flags/LL)
The toes are a horn color also.
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The shanks don\'t look chocolate at all, is it just the picture? The horn in the beak; however, does. Are the toenails the same? What an interesting color gene.
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The legs are a slaty chocolate color. The flash kind of washed her out and this was the best of the pictures I took.
The beak is more of a chocolate color also as are the toe nails.
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Don\'t other breeds have varieties with different leg color for a specific variety? I think we might re-visit this issue. The barred project is in a similar spot, with the genetics for the color not allowing true slate legs. We already allow black legs on black.
I truly believe that the growth of the Ameraucana breed lies in taking away part of the HUGE customer base and popularity of the Easter Egger market. Having exciting colors to go with the egg color should entice folks over to the breed.
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One of the major reasons we created an Ameraucana breed and standard in the first place was to get away from the circus atmosphere surrounding the easter eggers, false claims of egg superiority, wierd coloring and shapes, etc. Our national meet at Indianapolis last October drew the 7th largest entry out of about 35 breed club national meets. I don\'t see where surrendering our principled approach to creating and maintaining the breed will improve anything. We already have 16 recognized varieties of Ameraucanas if you count bantams and large fowl as seperate, plus lavender and splash waiting in the wings for enough breeders to qualify them. I believe it is a huge mistake to let existing varieties slide into or remain in mediocrity for lack of breeders in order to create endless numbers of new varieties.
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I agree with the embarrassing circus atmosphere, but think we might be able to use a little of it.
I also agree with not wanting an endless parade of new colors... sort of like some other breeds, especially in bantam. How has this affected Old English? I seem to see a new variety every year, it seems.
I also think that if some colors remain unpopular and it\'s a struggle to maintain them, perhaps that\'s where they should remain - a minor variety. If you can\'t sell the birds to new customers, why keep raising them?
Black gold appears to be fading away before it really got started. Perhaps the color is too boring to attract new breeders. Maybe it needs to be more different than brown/red... another boring color?
I\'m not pretending to have answers. I just think the questions need to be asked.
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Lyne, what may be boring to one person may be eye candy to another. I happen to feel the brown reds are the most attractive of all the varieties we have, plus it has the advantage of being a real challenge to reproduce correctly in high percentages. To me, solid white and solid black are the most boring - but I don\'t expect others to necessarily agree.
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Perhaps it is time to survey the membership on the leg color issues.In the past we have always settled matters with a vote.Mottled,barred/cuckoo and chocolate projects are all hampered by genetic reality.We broke the slate only barrier a long time ago when we allowed black legs on the black variety.
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We already allow black legs on black.
Lynn,
That\'s what I told Jerry when we were at Indy talking about the chocolate variety. It\'s just one more opinion, but as long as we are not going for different genes in the dermis and epidermis then...maybe. Then again the birds are judged on phenotype, not genotype. As I wrote this post I talked myself into another position on the subject.
As I understand it a black dermis (id+/id+) and white or clear epidermis (W+/W+) produce blue & slate shanks/legs.
Extended black darkens that normally slate shank to black, so our E/E black Ameraucanas naturally have black shanks, but this black is just a very, very dark slate. E-locus genes and secondary feather color/pattern genes affect the overall shank color...some enhance it and some dilute it. Many of our blue, recessive white and lavender Ameraucanas are based on E/E, but these color genes all dilute the shank color so the shanks become slate that would appear black if the bird was black. And, so we have many different shades of slate due to the effect of E-locus and color/pattern genes. Anything from blue or a light slate to black is fine with me...kind of like all the shades of gray.
I haven\'t studied the chocolate variety at all, but if it only has that same \"natural\" affect of enhancing or diluting the natural slate color of the shanks then I\'m for it. If it changes the pigment to chocolate, which is not a shade of gray, then I think it may be going too far.
Just my 2 cents worth :)
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One of the major reasons we created an Ameraucana breed and standard in the first place was to get away from the circus atmosphere surrounding the easter eggers, false claims of egg superiority, wierd coloring and shapes, etc. Our national meet at Indianapolis last October drew the 7th largest entry out of about 35 breed club national meets. I don\'t see where surrendering our principled approach to creating and maintaining the breed will improve anything. We already have 16 recognized varieties of Ameraucanas if you count bantams and large fowl as seperate, plus lavender and splash waiting in the wings for enough breeders to qualify them. I believe it is a huge mistake to let existing varieties slide into or remain in mediocrity for lack of breeders in order to create endless numbers of new varieties.
I agree wholeheartedly with the above!! I\'ve been saying for quite some time that it is frustrating to see so little attention being paid to existing approved varieties and so much attention being paid towards creating the next new fad.
I know I\'m not the brightest bulb in the socket and perhaps that\'s one of the reasons why it\'s taking me so long to improve my birds but dadburnit, I\'m committed to continuing to work on the WBS variety and I sure wish a lot more folks were too.
Btw, before I forget, can somebody tell me when the W & BW were accepted into the APA for LF? I don\'t remember seeing that anywhere in the SOP.
I understand the intrigue behind wanting to create a new variety. I\'ve even played with it myself a bit. But it always took a backseat to my real efforts to improve my WBS birds. And this is in spite of being told by at least one judge that I\'ll have to go with a solid color if I ever expect to make it to Champion Row! Maybe if we could get a more concerted effort towards improving our existing varieties, we would see an Ameraucana being given Champion of the Show! I don\'t even recall ever seeing that.
I\'ll be the first to admit that I don\'t know a lot about the other varieties besides the WBS that I work with (and many might say I don\'t know much about them!) but from what I understand most of the other varieties still need a lot of work. I know the Black LF that took BB at one show had a comb that looked more like a Walnut comb than a Peacomb. Doesn\'t that say something? I know I\'ve thought about getting some Buffs because I like Buff colored birds and they\'d be a solid color - but have read that they need a lot of work too. I seem to recall a lot of discussion on shafting with the Brown/Reds recently. So with all the work that apparently needs to be done on our existing varieties, shouldn\'t we really be putting more effort into them?
God Bless,
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Tailfeathers wrote: \"Btw, before I forget, can somebody tell me when the W & BW were accepted into the APA for LF? I don\'t remember seeing that anywhere in the SOP. \"
It\'s in there Royce. All the large fowl varieties were accepted by the APA in 1984, a year after our qualifying meet (for bantams btw) was held at the Ohio National.
I did not mean to stir up a firestorm of controversy. But I will draw a line in the sand where it comes to primary breed characteristics. For the record, I am not opposed to the Chocolates being developed and admitted someday if enough folks jump on the bandwagon. They have the slate dermis that is required for the breed. The epidermis (outer layer of skin) of the shanks often takes on the color of the pigment in the feathers in E, E^R, and e^b based birds, because the feathers are just an extension of the epidermis. Thus black pigment creeps into the leg epidermis because of black feathering. Reddish epidermis pigment creeps into the shanks from partridge and red birds. And chocolate coloring will creep into the shank epidermis from birds with chocolate feathers. But any bird without a dark dermis, e.g., barred, mottled, etc., is never going to qualify short of a minor miracle. There are other very good reasons besides leg color not to allow barred. It has been scientifically demonstrated that slow feathering is necessary to get crisp barring, and it has also been proven that slow feathering birds are more susceptible to Marek\'s disease. Anyone is free to mess around with any color they desire, but don\'t expect wholehearted acceptance by the Ameraucana community when primary breed characteristics are missing.
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Perhaps it is time to survey the membership on the leg color issues.In the past we have always settled matters with a vote.Mottled,barred/cuckoo and chocolate projects are all hampered by genetic reality.We broke the slate only barrier a long time ago when we allowed black legs on the black variety.
As a personal preference, I have taken to the B/B/S, Lav, and Mottled color families. Maybe there are some who would wish for more people working on Wheaten, Brown-red, Silver and such, but I don\'t want these colors around. My working on Mottled does not keep me from working on those colors.
I guess I\'m trying to say that perhaps the lack of popularity of a variety may just be due to personal tastes. I for one would like to see more varieties accepted, be that Mottled, Lav, Chocolate...... Just getting a hobbiest involved in Ameraucanas has a way of leading to an accumulation of varieties in the breed.
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Thinking about mottled... aren\'t there some white spotted birds with dark legs - like the hamburg? Is there more than one gene for white spots? I also saw some barred birds that had dark spots on their legs - so they might be slate with color inhibitors... slate genetically perhaps?
This is great to discuss this stuff. It is also good to be reminded that the existing varieties need support. Hmmm. A new member lured to the Ameraucana ranks with a fad variety will eventually add more varieties to their coop. It\'s inescapable! ^_^
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It\'s in there Royce. All the large fowl varieties were accepted by the APA in 1984, a year after our qualifying meet (for bantams btw) was held at the Ohio National.
Thanks Mike. I knew the Ameraucanas (LF) were accepted in 1984 but I didn\'t know that all the varieties were accepted at the same time! That\'s an achievement than defies words for me!
And, if you know me at all, I\'m never short on words. :p
Seriously, thanks a bunch. That\'s a terrific piece of history that I was not aware of.
God Bless,
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Good Morning,
First I would like to say, Thank the Good Lord that I live in a country that, so far, we are free to pursue happiness. I think that to work on other colors is a choice for individuals to make for themselves.
But for me I think we have a great selection of colors to work on.
It takes a lot of space to house just two breeds that I am working with. Blacks, Blues, Splash and Wheaten. I have found that the Wheatens really need a lot of work to keep them up to standard.
I don’t think we should modify the breed standards just make another color though.
If you like a lot of different colors do like my wife does just raise Easter eggers. That way you don’t have to worry about shank color or any of the other faults we deal with, when working on the eight other recognized breed colors.
Just my humble opinion.
Jess
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That\'s a terrific piece of history that I was not aware of.
Most varieties were developed after being recognized. You can read more from the \"History\" link on the ABC site.
Jerry and Mike are charter members, but I\'m celebrating 30 years with the ABC this year!
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Most varieties were developed after being recognized. You can read more from the \"History\" link on the ABC site.
The recognized varieties that we have were almost accidental. I wouldn\'t discourage breeders from developing new varieties. If we follow the proper procedures for getting new varieties, including multiple breeders and multiple years for development, it seems that the new varieties may be more legitimate than the original recognized varieties.
Curtis
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Part of the adventure of keeping chickens for me is that it\'s a practical application of genetics that doesn\'t require a research subjects protection protocol. The more people experiment with different colors and trait combinations, the more we collectively learn about the invisible information behind the visible phenotype. I like to hear about the projects folks on this forum have underway. I think my Australorps are great birds, but they only come in one color- black. Part of what attracted me to the Ameraucana is the variety of colors of the birds, not just the novelty of a blue egg. If folks want to work on their own dream variety, that\'s great! Partridge, Blue Laced Red, and Silver Penciled are patterns that catch my eye at a poultry show because of the contrast, but if chocolate, lavender, splash, black-gold, whatever it is does it for someone else and makes that person want to stay in the poultry fancy, so be it.
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Most varieties were developed after being recognized. You can read more from the \"History\" link on the ABC site.
The recognized varieties that we have were almost accidental. I wouldn\'t discourage breeders from developing new varieties. If we follow the proper procedures for getting new varieties, including multiple breeders and multiple years for development, it seems that the new varieties may be more legitimate than the original recognized varieties.Curtis
Just a clarification on John\'s statement. It was the large fowl that were developed after recognition, but only the buff bantams were developed after recognition. The other seven qualified for the APA the regular way; at the 1983 Ohio National. Prior to that, the wheatens and white bantams had been recognized by the ABA in 1980 in California.
Curtis, why would you say that? I don\'t agree. It took years of concentrated effort to develop the existing varieties, so it certainly was no accident. Some of us were focused on developing specific varieties, including Wayne Meredith, John Blehm, Rande Buske, and myself. There were others too, but we could have used a lot more help than we had. Some of our charter members practically disappeared from the effort for years after Don Cable had to resign in 1984 or 85. We spent a lot of time, money, and plain work to get as far as we did. Sixteen varieties don\'t come about by accident.
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Look at this hen. Is this the mottled gene? The legs sure look slate.
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Curtis, why would you say that? I don\'t agree. It took years of concentrated effort to develop the existing varieties, so it certainly was no accident.
I admit, I was \'poking the bear\' a bit. I know that a lot of work went into developing the breed and the various varieties.
I especially appreciate the efforts that you and others have spent improving the various varieties. I didn\'t mean to minimize the work you have done.
Curtis
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John said:
\"Most varieties were developed after being recognized. You can read more from the \"History\" link on the ABC site.\"
Curtis said:
\"The recognized varieties that we have were almost accidental. I wouldn\'t discourage breeders from developing new varieties. If we follow the proper procedures for getting new varieties, including multiple breeders and multiple years for development, it seems that the new varieties may be more legitimate than the original recognized varieties.\"
Curtis, at the time we were the Ameraucana Bantam Club and actually had the varities that were accepted.The large fowl had another club.The large fowl got in a year later only by accepting our standard and colors in large fowl. At the time they did not have most of the varities listed. We became the Ameraucana Breeders Club.
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Tailfeathers wrote: \"Btw, before I forget, can somebody tell me when the W & BW were accepted into the APA for LF? I don\'t remember seeing that anywhere in the SOP. \"
It\'s in there Royce. All the large fowl varieties were accepted by the APA in 1984, a year after our qualifying meet (for bantams btw) was held at the Ohio National.
I did not mean to stir up a firestorm of controversy. But I will draw a line in the sand where it comes to primary breed characteristics. For the record, I am not opposed to the Chocolates being developed and admitted someday if enough folks jump on the bandwagon. They have the slate dermis that is required for the breed. The epidermis (outer layer of skin) of the shanks often takes on the color of the pigment in the feathers in E, E^R, and e^b based birds, because the feathers are just an extension of the epidermis. Thus black pigment creeps into the leg epidermis because of black feathering. Reddish epidermis pigment creeps into the shanks from partridge and red birds. And chocolate coloring will creep into the shank epidermis from birds with chocolate feathers. But any bird without a dark dermis, e.g., barred, mottled, etc., is never going to qualify short of a minor miracle. There are other very good reasons besides leg color not to allow barred. It has been scientifically demonstrated that slow feathering is necessary to get crisp barring, and it has also been proven that slow feathering birds are more susceptible to Marek\'s disease. Anyone is free to mess around with any color they desire, but don\'t expect wholehearted acceptance by the Ameraucana community when primary breed characteristics are missing.
While it may seem that Mike and I dissagree that is really not the case.So let me try to clarify my position.There is no color pattern that will change leg color to yellow,willow or pure white.These should not be allowed.Slate is the genotype for our breed and should not change.However some color patterns change what we see [phenotype]We allowed this with black even though slate legs are possible on black.Look at the black austrolop and orpington.So what I am saying is it should be allowed in chocolate as they are the black variety with slate or black legs first.The color pattern changes to chocolate and so does the leg color.On mottled and cuckoo the gene that interupts black in the feathers also does the same in the legs.This results in white in the feathers and legs.However there are slate areas or slate spots in the legs.pure white legs should be a disqualification.We patterened our one leg color after the Polish breed and they are now working on a cuckoo variety.I saw several at Indy.They have the same problem with leg color.I will be interested in how they describe leg color when or if they are addmitted.I also looked at cuckoo D\'anvers While at indy.Same leg color problem.The standard on cuckoo D\'anvers says light slate but all I saw was broken slate.It seems they chose to ignore the problem and call it light slate.Like Mike I do not support another leg color.I do support genetic reality.When we hit a genetic wall we should make allowences
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Look at this hen. Is this the mottled gene? The legs sure look slate.
They do. Are there other melanizers at work here???
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Does anyone else hear Tevye belting out \"TRADITION! TRADITION!\" from Fiddler on the Roof as they are reading this? I sure do. And I think I would be leaning towards tradition. Keep the standards what they are as they were hashed out by learned, devoted breeders and make the new varieties fit them or not be graced with the title \"Ameraucana\". Only the best, prettiest, sweetest, awesome dual purpose bird in the whole darn world!!!!!
Just My Opinion
Denise
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I prefer the motto of \'Blue Legs Blue Eggs\' .
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Sorry every time I hear the word Tradition I think of this poster...no offense just a chuckle :D
(http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/demotivators_2194_3530457)
\"Just because you\'ve always done it that way doesn\'t mean it\'s not incredibly stupid.\"
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Look at this hen. Is this the mottled gene? The legs sure look slate.
Yes it looks slate and we should use it if we can.I have produced a few but have not been able to consistantly produce them.Most say it can\'t be done.The problem is finding a source for these slate leg mottled birds.The standard is not much help.D\'anvers calls for light slate in cuckoo but I see only broken slate at the shows.I did not look for mottled D\'anvers but the standard calls for dark slate but do they really have them?All I am saying is that the varieties in question are genetically pure for slate legs and as such should be considered for acceptance into the breed.The Polish breeders do not seem to be hung up on this issue and they are the example we followed in the beginning.The standard says Darwin considered Houdain and Creve Cour to be sub-varieties of the Polish.So lets look at the leg color on mottled Houdain.They are spotted.
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I have D\'anvers. The millie and porcelain d\'anvers have pure slate. Mottled and barred have broken slate (white patches on their feet/legs.) If they both carry the mottled gene why are they different?
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While we\'re on the topic of holding onto tradition....
This was said on another thread:
Do we have five breeders who have bred them five years or more?
I\'m sure we do, but still don\'t think the club has any plans to go thru the recognition process any time soon especially with the problem the ABA has with \"lavender\".
This also, was said:
\"My personal preference is to have it recognized as lavender or not at all and will continue to breed, sell and show them as lavenders. That just drives those old timers over the edge!\"
Seems apparent that the desire to have some traditional, long-standing methodology adhered to is a value both sides cling to---ABA and ABC.
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Apparently what\'s good for the goose is not good for the gander.
A person who is, let us say, in the upper ranks of the APA, made it known to me that individuals rather than the breed club can place a meet for recognition of a new variety. Paperwork, $, and the requirements for 5 breeders, 5 years, 50 birds is still the same.
This will be my third year with the Lav/Self-Blues.
Cindy, how many do you have?
I was told as a child that women did not go to vet school. I don\'t think much of tradition.
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Just a few thoughts & observations. I do think adding new varieties will increase interest in the breed. My personal favorite is the partridge project. But I agree that new varieties shouldn\'t be created at the expense of existing varieties, some of which are getting pretty sparse.
Along those lines, some observations that came up in a conversation with another member recently. This is merely an observation, but it seems the most plentiful varieties are also the ones with the most hatching eggs available for purchase through the mail. While it may not be the best way, for many people it is the ONLY way they can afford. Although I initially wanted buff, b/b/s and w/bw/sw were what I bought because they were what I could find at the time. I have noticed a surge in the popularity of buffs the last few years and I personally think that Gary Ramey has contributed to that by selling buff eggs on E-Bay. Lavender has become extremely popular very quickly even though it is not yet recognized. I understand the reasons why breeders choose not to ship eggs and respect them. But I don\'t think people find varieties such as silver & brown/red less desirable (I see tons of both at shows in a variety of breeds), I think they are simply overshadowed by varieties that are easier/cheaper to obtain.
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\"Just because you\'ve always done it that way doesn\'t mean it\'s not incredibly stupid.\"
Sometimes that is very true. When it comes to tradition I\'m with you and have pushed for \"change\" when it looked beneficial. I\'m not even a \"preservationist\" and am not a member of either the SPPA or ALBC. :stare:
If new varieties are bred and recognized due to popularity and old ones fall by the wayside due to lack of interest, so be it.
We just need to agree as a club that the new variety fits into the Ameraucana breed and this forum with input restricted to ABC members is the best way to discuss the topic and take polls before votes are ever cast. :)
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This is a great line of dialogue...
While I am in favor of continual breeding of the accepted color varieties of Ameraucanas, I would think our club would come to a stagnancy if we did not try to introduce new colors. I\'m not sure what others have to say about the genetic diversity of some varieties, but I fear the potential for bottlenecking.
When I started out, I knew I wanted to breed Lavender Ameraucanas. This will be my 3rd year with this variety, along with Black and Wheaten/Blue Wheaten. (Buff, Blue, Splash and Silver didn\'t make the cut. ) It has been time consuming, costly and unbelievably frustrating in some cases breeding a project color. It also has afforded me a glimpse and foundation for better understanding of genetics and where I can draw knowledge to make improvements to my flock and pass that on to others who are also interested in raising Lavs. The progress that I have made, and witnessed others make with their respective projects, has been the ultimate reward! When I started, this was all just for fun! Now it has become a mission. I don\'t think we should close all doors to opportunity to broaden our club\'s interests. We should push ourselves to grow, and with that, breed for more project colors. Variety is the spice of life! I have another Ameraucana project on the side that will be taking a good chunk of my time. These projects that we are working on are EXCITING! Implementing a breeding plan/program and keeping records gives these projects a boost of validation and a determined foundation from which to start. The worst that will happen is that we end up with an incredible variety of EE\'s! Heck...even the best laid plans....go often askew! A reality we are aware of when we enter into breeding for these project colors.
I find it healthy for the overall interest of the breed to pursue growth and interest. If that comes in the form of new colors, so be it.
Meagan
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I have D\'anvers. The millie and porcelain d\'anvers have pure slate. Mottled and barred have broken slate (white patches on their feet/legs.) If they both carry the mottled gene why are they different?
I have pondered this also.It must have something to do with feather color.Otherwise the d\'anvers breeders would have crossed these colors and have slate legs in all of the varieties.So maybe a mottled red or wheaten with slate legs is possible.For sure mille or porcelain would be possible.Just thinking outloud.
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I have D\'anvers. The millie and porcelain d\'anvers have pure slate. Mottled and barred have broken slate (white patches on their feet/legs.) If they both carry the mottled gene why are they different?
My guess is that this has to do with the E locus. Most blacks and mottled blacks are on E. I wonder if you would have the same issue if we put the mottled color on ER or eb? I think millies are on ew.
Curtis
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I was hoping you were going to say that. B)
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This is interesting about which locus is involved.I do a lot of genetic reading in the winter.I found mention of the columbian gene enhancing melanin in the legs in the presence of sex linked barring.This was on both types of white.Soooo I was wondering can you get a black to carry columbian?Could solve a problem.My guess is it would cause some change in pattern but then again.Should not be hard to find something with the columbian gene for a test.Might work with mottled and chocolate.Might be worth investigating.
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I\'ll let you know in the fall ;) . I have D\'anvers for one specific reason....and it\'s not beacuse they are super cute; that\'s just a bonus
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Lyne, what may be boring to one person may be eye candy to another. I happen to feel the brown reds are the most attractive of all the varieties we have, plus it has the advantage of being a real challenge to reproduce correctly in high percentages. To me, solid white and solid black are the most boring - but I don\'t expect others to necessarily agree.
I love the brown reds and think they are a very striking variety. To my surprise there are very few breeders, same with the silvers LF I am not sure about bantams?
With Mottled and Cuckoo I have yet to see any with true slate legs. Might be possible to get on females but I highly doubt getting them on a male. Slate legs are a characteristic of the breed? Right, or am I mistaken?
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What is \"true slate\"? That is a good question.
Are buffs true slate if they are not slate at hatching, but darken later? This is a recognized variety, but the slate looks different to me.
Are slate spots on a barred or mottled bird true slate (with color inhibitors)?
Are black legs truly slate (slate with black extenders causing the legs to be black)?
Is the chocolate dilution of black that causes the slate leg to have a chocolate cast, still slate?
What about lavender that dilutes the slate to light slate?
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What is \"true slate\"?
Slate, the rock, can be gray, green, or bluish but the APA definition that we have to go by says...
SLATE: A shade of gray having a bluish cast sometimes approaching black, sometimes of lighter shades.
Are buffs true slate if they are not slate at hatching, but darken later?
Sure, because only adult birds are judged to the standard.
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Some of this discussion reminds me of the Clinton years.
\"What is meant by \'is\'? What is meant by \'the\'? Slate is comprised of a dark dermis, and an epidermis that is clear shading to dark depending on feather color and e locus. It is not spotted dark and light, but dark throughout, varying from light slate to black. There are a great plenty of varieties that could be developed (or improved) without running into shank color issues at all, so why not concentrate on them instead of beating our heads against a brick wall? With that said, it may very well be possible to break the genetic linkage with B that prevents a dark dermis, but it will take a tremendous concerted effort. For example, one person from South America believes that if Fm (fibromelanosis) is included (the primary gene that makes a Silkie\'s skin black) in a bird that is pure for Id (light dermis) you can produce a dark shanked bird with B (barring). Is it worth it to find out? Not to me it isn\'t, but each person can decide for themselves. More power to anyone who succeeds.
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My mind remains open, so open that I believe stuff is falling out and lost forever.
I have an accidental barred Am cross if anyone is interested in him. Cuckoo marans and Black/Lav split. No slate spots but a very light slate undercolor. (I\'m not working on the barred.)
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I hatched two LF chocolate project chicks this weekend.
(http://www.backyardchickens.com/image/id/6752756/width/600/height/526/flags/LL)
(http://www.backyardchickens.com/image/id/6752760/width/600/height/343/flags/LL)
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Woo Hoo!!!! Very excited about the chocolate project coming over to LF :stare:
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Updated picture of a bantam chocolate project pullet and some of the eggs I am getting from them. The two eggs on the bottom of the photo are from pure bantam blacks, the four on top are from the chocolates.
(http://www.backyardchickens.com/image/id/7794825/width/600/height/551/flags/LL)
(http://www.backyardchickens.com/image/id/7794832/width/600/height/583/flags/LL)
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Updated picture of a bantam chocolate project pullet and some of the eggs I am getting from them. The two eggs on the bottom of the photo are from pure bantam blacks, the four on top are from the chocolates.
(http://www.backyardchickens.com/image/id/7794825/width/600/height/551/flags/LL)
(http://www.backyardchickens.com/image/id/7794832/width/600/height/583/flags/LL)
She is coming along nicely!
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A couple of second generation LF Chocolate project chicks:
(http://www.backyardchickens.com/content/type/61/id/5779344/width/350/height/700/flags/LL)
(http://www.backyardchickens.com/content/type/61/id/5779342/width/350/height/700/flags/LL)