Ameraucana Breeders Club
The Official Forum of the Ameraucana Breeders Club => Ameraucana Marketplace => Topic started by: Anne Foley on September 14, 2008, 10:03:31 AM
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Hello everyone! I know that there has been some discussion in past years about barred/cuckoo Ameraucanas. My husband and I have been working with a feather researcher in CA and most recently used some of our LF Black Ameraucana to do a barred cross. Out of the 30-40 offspring, it looks like a few (4-6?) are going to have some nice Ameraucana features including the slate legs (no yellow in foot pads), pea comb, some beard/muff, and cuckoo/barred coloring. They are not yet developed enough to say much about type. These birds are 50% Bl. Ameraucana, 25% New Hampshire, and 25% Barred Rock-- all LF. They will be given away as layers this fall. The blood we need from them has already been drawn. They were not vaccinated as we did not have plans to keep them. However, they appear to be very healthy and are being currently kept in our fenced gardens for fall clean-up. If anyone thinks that they might be of interest to them, please let us know. They range in ages with the oldest ones maybe being 4 months (?) old.
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Anne, it has been demonstrated that the sex linked barring gene prevents dermal melanin, so would be shocked if your birds had slate legs. It is possible they have some dark pigment in the epidermis (outside layer of skin) but that is not the same as slate. Also, since you used yellow legged breeds to make the cross, you will be dealing with that for generations to come. Can you post pictures?
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I agree that the dermis is white and the epidermis is dark but not black. However, it has always seemed that the standard was a bit loose on the definition of slate. Anyway, here are a couple pictures!
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Anne,
It looks like you made good progress in a short time.
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Dang! I wish I had room for another variety. I\'m DROOLING.
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Great job! Those are beautiful.
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How about a photo of a cockerel\'s legs? What will you use in the next mating? Paul, if you happen to read this thread, why don\'t you share with us how many years you worked on this variety?
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Thank you for all the nice comments. I want to clarify that we have no plans to work on a barred variety. We thought it might be of interest to some ABC members to see the results we got from these matings for our researcher friend. Mike, I am not sure if there is a nice cockerel in the bunch. The only barred+darker shank male in the older set has a single comb and the younger set is not developed to the point where the sex is obvious. I can take a closer look tomorrow.
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I invested five years in the barred project, which I scrapped when our only barred male raised in 2004 was taken by a coyote. I went about trying to produce them all wrong, but learned a lot along the way. I tried to find a barred Plymoth Rock cockerel but ended-up purchasing three pullets from one person and a hen from another to start with two different lines. I used two unrelated black Ameraucana males on the two pens of barred females. 100% of the pullets were black and 100% of males were cuckoo. The best male from each pen was mated with the best pullets from the other pen. Best I remember the second generation produced some females that were cuckoo. There shank and egg color never filled the required slate or sky blue respectfully, but they were good layers and meaty.
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So, does the presence of slate legs in this pullet indicate that development of Barred Ameraucanas is possible? If so, I\'d sure like to see breeders take it on.
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The short answer is the pullet does not have slate legs.
What you see is dark pigment in the epidermis. The males will not have this, or at least as much of it. This is no different than the pigment you would see in a barred rock pullet, except the epidermis also contains yellow. As I explained above, the barring gene prevents dark pigment in the dermis.
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Where in the standard is slate defined using terms such as pigment (presence or lack thereof) in the epidermis and dermis? Is it possible to over-interepret the standard? The pictures in this thread are of two separate pullets. There is one male (unfortunately with a single comb). He does have some dark leg pigmentation but not as dark as the pullets in the photographs. There are a few others but they are too young to sex. I am not sure that the Ameraucana breed needs more varieties but not everyone likes plain black chickens like I do! These birds were a by-product of a breeding project with a researcher friend of ours. We used our black Ameraucanas because we needed black hens for the project and they happened to be conveniently located on our property! The assortment of offspring is actually spectacular. The range of leg colors, for example, pretty much covers the whole gamut.
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It would be great to have a central reference place with any established specs (and notes on conditions necessary for producing them) for Ameraucanas to be posted for everyone to be able to review and work from.
Ideas on info to include:
* Ameraucanas must produce true to their color variety X amount of the time.
* The required slate leg color is made up of ____ genes. You can identify correct coloring by _______________.
Etc.
Also info specific to various color varieties would be great, such as:
* Blue X Black = 75% Black, 25% Blue
* Lavender is under development for APA approval in Large Fowl. Estimated date for qualifying meet is 200X.
Etc.
Could a reference section be created on the website for such info? It seems this could facilitate the Ameraucana breed being spread and improved far more quickly and reliably, and it could save MANY people time wandering through less productive efforts.
It would be great if it could be a condensed, edited section of the website rather than a general forum. But that would require some work by a couple designated people.
Perhaps everyone could submit suggestions in as condensed format as they can, and a couple editors could make any needed revisions and add info to the reference center???
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The Standard\'s range for shank color includes slate, dark slate, very dark slate and black. If you can get a barred, cuckoo or other variety to breed true for any type of true slate (from light to dark) or black shanks I would think you have a viable variety.
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I have noticed in the Standard that there are a number of breeds where different varieties in that breed have different leg color requirements. For example, in Buff Orpingtons it is pinkish white legs, in Black Orpingtons it is black to dark slate legs, and in Blue Orpingtons it is leaden blue legs. Also, some breeds in the standard do not even ask that the leg color be uniform. For example, the Houdan calls for pinkish white mottled with black in the legs. Just some thoughts.
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different leg color requirements
And it\'s the same with Ameraucanas having some shade of slate or black shanks. Slate was the original consensus for Ameraucana shank color, but some variation is due to the influence of the genes (required to make a variety) on the dermis and epidermis. I know that yellow/willow shanks were voted down way back when the breed was being recognized. I would also think we wouldn\'t want a variety with white/clear shanks.
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The information about shank color is very interesting. I am new to chickens and besides my 3 pure Ameraucanas, I have blue, silver- and gold-laced feed store Wyandottes and Cuckoo (feedstore) and pure Salmon and buff Marans. I have noticed that the Cuckoo Marans and the Blue Wyandottes have darkish legs (especially along the front of the shank) and the silver and gold-laced wyandottes have yellow legs, but the Black/silver Maran and salmon Maran have very dark legs while the buff Maran has light legs.
I have tried to isolate some legs in pictures I had on my computer. But I did not have any of the Blue Wyandottes or the Cuckoo Maran pullets.
Danielle in Utah
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We also would not want an Ameraucana that does not have the melanized dermis. A bird without the dark pigment in the underneath layer of skin does not have slate legs, no matter what shade it is. They may be \"darkish\" because the gene at the e-locus causes some dark pigment to develop in the epidermis, but that is not the same as slate. This dark dermis is not going to happen in a sex-link barred variety because the barring gene prevents it. Period.
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I agree with Mike. The research backs up Mike\'s statements also. If you want barring and slate shanks and feet in a bird you will have to go with autosomal barring as in the fayoumi or campines.
Tim
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\"original consensus for Ameraucana shank color\" I think I finally get it. When the ABC selected (and defined) slate as the shank color in Ameraucanas, some color varieties were automatically excluded in this breed. Thanks to everyone for their input and interesting comments.
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Anne,
Sometimes more background information needs to given as to why things are the way they are. Dick Orr wrote the \"History\" that is on the ABC site and I\'ve pasted some below that pertains to the subject of shank color.
A proposed Standard was developed in early 1979, and put to a vote. Mike commented on the results of the vote as follows: “Thanks to each of you who have participated in making our voting process a success … We have decided on slate colored shanks by an overwhelming margin. We have voted for red earlobes by a nearly two to one margin, we have decided on the weight category calling for 30 oz. mature cockbirds, and we have chosen the name “AMERAUCANA” by a margin of nearly two to one.”
Even after some of the \"Standard\" characteristics were accepted by popular vote some that didn\'t get thier way continued to breed for the characteristics they wanted.
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So.... why do the barred birds in this post have legs that look rather slate colored?
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The females in the picture only carry one barring gene which will allow for some epidermal black pigment or black pigment in the scales. Two barring genes (as in males) will eliminate all of or almost all of the black pigment.
Tim
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Ah, I thought one was a cockerel.
So, if someone wanted a barred project they might take these hens and cross them with the autosomal breeds?
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Is Dominiker autosomal? The guy I got some birds from this summer says he breeds a \"sex link\" Ameraucana insomuchas he has an Ameraucana (albeit EE) rooster and Dominiker hens. They all seem to be barred, and he says if the chicks have muffs and beards they will be pullets. Some of the other hatchery \"brown-reds\" and \"silvers\" he had looked nice, and all of his stock looked very healthy. I went ahead and took a couple of the barred pullets, but in my mind I was worried about getting ugly olive coloured eggs. Well, one of the pullets ended up dying (my son said she started running around crazy, ran into the fence, and just died...weird) and the other one ended up being a cockrel. LOL, so much for the \"sex link\" theory. Anyway, so now I have a mutt cockrel that I just turned loose in the yard. So far, he has survived the dog for over a week. He does have muffs, beard, and pea comb, but I didn\'t even look at his legs. I guess I\'ll have to look and see now.
But, doesn\'t crossing brown egg breeds in make the pure blue and green eggs come out icky-coloured?
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Muffs and beards are not sex-linked, as you found out. If you really want pure Ameraucana stock, look up fellow Texan Paul Smith (from the Gainesville area) as he is one of the premier breeders. Many hatcheries and individuals will be happy to sell you mixed parentage stock under the name of \"Ameraucana\" but Ameraucanas they are not.
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I did get some black from Paul, as I had said in another thread. I had just gotten these EE before getting his, and thought I would put my .02 in since this thread showed some who had interest in the barring.
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Hi, new to this group, wanted to share a pic of my barred EE hen I bought a few weeks ago. She was just approaching point of lay, and about a week after I got her began to lay green eggs, sometimes speckled. She has dark grey shading down the fronts of her legs and on the tops of her toes.
(http://pattycarson.com/images/chickens/barredee.jpg)
I have ten of her eggs of unknown fertility status under a broody. Last night the broody they were under decided she was all done, so I put them under a different broody and crossed my fingers. I would be interested in trading eggs with other similar birds to broaden my gene pool. \"Muffy\" was in with a bunch of marans, mostly cuckoo, as well as a few other breeds, so no telling what, if anything will come of her eggs. I will post any babies that hatch. Thanks again for this group.
Patty in Riverside, CA
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Dominiques are sex linked barred.
Tim
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Can someone clarify?
Muffy would not have autosomal genes because her barring comes from Marans, right? So the dark color in her legs would be only in the scales, not the shanks (which would be required for acceptance as an Ameraucana color variety)?
Does her barring being sex-linked mean her male offspring would not be barred? If so, what color would they likely be?
Muffy is an amazing looking bird! If only I could take on another color of Ameraucanas... Gotta discipline myself, though :rolleyes: Patty, I hope you can link up with some others and have fun breeding this unique, pretty pattern!
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If \"Muffy\" is barred she will throw the barring gene to all her MALE offspring, but not to her female offspring. If she is mated to a non-barred male, all the male offspring will be barred (poorly) but their female offspring will not be. This is an Ameraucana discussion board but we are talking about easter eggers. There is a genetics forum at the Classroom at the Coop discussion board for poultry genetics at: www.the-coop.org .
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I apologize for posting EE here. I thought it was okay because the thread was already there and appeared to be an okay discussion. Muffy has three offspring hatched so far. One appears no barring gene, one appears middle of the road, and one appears like a barred male. Here is a pic of the middle of the road one hatched two days ago.
(http://pattycarson.com/images/chickens/ee/ee2.jpg)
(http://pattycarson.com/images/chickens/ee/ee2side.jpg)
I am not trying to be obtuse. If you would rather I not post about Muffy and her babies, someone hold up a big cue card for me and i\'ll mosey on... Thanks for those that shared info.
Patty
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The Poultry Improvement forum is open to any project you would like to bring up and discuss. Here is the address. There are two other forums that deal with wyandottes. I am a moderator of the Improvement Forum. The forum is new.
http://bluelacedred.com/forum/index.php
Tim
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Patty,
Anything that relates to Ameraucana chickens, the ABC or it\'s members is fine to post on this forum in my opinion. There is no reason to exclude discussion about Easter Eggers, other breeds and varieties as they relate to the development of the different Ameraucana varieties.
When it comes to questions about crossing birds that are not part of a breeding program to improve or develop varieties of Ameraucana they are better asked on some of the generic poultry forums that deal with just about anything related to poultry. Forums such as http://www.the-coop.org/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi will give those questions the best opportunity to receive comments and input from others. Likewise questions dealing with specific breeds are best asked on the forums of the breed clubs represented by them.
From previous topics I know that most of us feel Easter Eggers are great for a backyard or barnyard flock, but of course not for exhibition. When they are exhibited they are often entered as Ameraucanas or Araucanas and that hurts the efforts of both breeds and clubs that represent them. Part of our mission statement talks about encouraging the continued improvement of Ameraucanas and that is the primary goal of this forum, but we stray a little off topic from time to time.
Sincerely,
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Can someone clarify?
Muffy would not have autosomal genes because her barring comes from Marans, right? So the dark color in her legs would be only in the scales, not the shanks (which would be required for acceptance as an Ameraucana color variety)?
Does her barring being sex-linked mean her male offspring would not be barred? If so, what color would they likely be?
Muffy is an amazing looking bird! If only I could take on another color of Ameraucanas... Gotta discipline myself, though :rolleyes: Patty, I hope you can link up with some others and have fun breeding this unique, pretty pattern!
I think Muffy more likely got her barring from a Barred Rock. since the cuckoo marans barring is more v-shaped and distinctive. It will be interesting to see if her chicks end up with more of a barred or cuckoo patterns.
I do not plan to mess up the Ameraucana breed with misrepresentation or showing Muffy as one. My offer still stands to trade or make available eggs to anyone working on this color, which it seems will never be accepted until the standard is changed to allow for reality of the laws of genetics as it applies to sex-linked barring. The likelihood of a wide genetic based group of breeders using dominant barring is probably profoundly unlikely, just from what I have read here. Thanks all for your input.
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Muffy has three offspring hatched so far. One appears no barring gene, one appears middle of the road, and one appears like a barred male. Here is a pic of the middle of the road one hatched two days ago.
Hi Patty - if I understand what is going on here then Muffy had a Marans (or some kind of sex-linked barred roo) daddy AND she was loose with roos who have sex-linked barring (Cuckoo Marans) one of which might be the daddy of these babies... right?
If so, then your \"middle of the road\" barred baby might be a pullet and the other that \"appears to be a barred male\" may be exactly that. Correctly barred males (who have 2 copies of the barring gene, one from mama and one from papa) have larger white spots on the tops of their heads.
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I think Muffy more likely got her barring from a Barred Rock. since the cuckoo marans barring is more v-shaped and distinctive. It will be interesting to see if her chicks end up with more of a barred or cuckoo patterns.
I think (maybe Tim can correct me if I am wrong) that the same barring gene causes the barred pattern in Barred Rock birds AND the cuckoo pattern in Cuckoo Marans.
The difference in the patterns comes from the speed of the feathering. Marans are SUPPOSED to be fast-feathering... because the feathers grow really fast, the pattern is uneven, giving the cuckoo pattern. Barred Rock birds have normal or perhaps even slow feathering genes - this allows a more homogeneous pattern of barring to develop.
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The Poultry Improvement forum is open to any project you would like to bring up and discuss. Here is the address. There are two other forums that deal with wyandottes. I am a moderator of the Improvement Forum. The forum is new.
http://bluelacedred.com/forum/index.php
Tim
Tim\'s suggestion is a good one. I feel he is much more knowledgable about poultry genetics than anyone here.
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I find it unfortunate that the ABC does not broaden it\'s interpretation of the Standard when it comes to leg color. I\'m not suggesting that genetically yellow ,green or white should be allowed in to the standard, but a bird with genetically slate legs that final leg color is dilluted by another gene should be considered. This would include dominate white and sex link barring.
Dominate white on Wheaten creates a stunning looking hen, and Red Pyle males. If introduce to the Black Gold may create a breath taking bird.
Barring can be used for Barred or Crele also on Wheaten instead of wild type if so desired.
glen
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When the same is done for old established breeds like Hamburgs, Campines, Polish, Andalusions, Lakenvelders, La Fleche, and others - then I think we will consider it for Ameraucanas. Some of us feel we have plenty of varieties already - especially considering the lack of exhibitors and breeders for some of our existing varieties. Any one is free to play around with whatever combination of varieties of easter eggers you want. You are also free to create your own breed and go through the process of getting it admitted to the standards as we did. And you are certainly free to express your opinions here, but so are the rest of us. And I certainly don\'t agree to opening up the standard to foreign shank colors. The gene for sex-linked barring requires slow feathering to get proper, distinct barring. Slow feathering leads to feather picking when those birds are raised with fast feathering varieties. How many barred rocks do we see at the shows? Not very many at the ones I attend. So why do we need another barred breed? For that matter, how many fast feathering cuckoo Dominiques do we see? I attended the Ohio National when they qualified Blue Jersey Giants. There were a ton of them there. I also attended the qualifying meet for black crested white Polish in Minnesota in 1996. I havent seen a Blue Giant or a black crested white Polish at a show since. None of the sex-linked barred breeds are very popular. I think at this point we need to concentrate on improving what we have, and to get the more popular varieties like lavender and splash admitted to the standard. You are entitled to your opinion, as I am mine.
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WOW, Sorry if i hit a nerve. I respect all the work and effort that has been put into this hobby of ours, by all if it\'s founding members. I don\'t raise or show Hamburgs, Campines, Polish, Andalusions, Lakenvelders, or La Fleche, so I\'m not having this discussion with any of their breeders. Apparently others feel there are not enough varieties or they would not continue to work on developing them. I\'m not trying to undermine all the work and time that went into the development of the Ameraucana.
I agree with improving what is established, but to improve Silvers there is nothing in the same e locus (e+) to breed to, no BB REd. To improve the Brown Red (eb), no Birchen, no Lemon Blue ect. So a breeder can create his/her own to breed back to, but can not show it as an Ameraucana. I like the rest of you, like to show off my accomplishments.
The greater the variety the great the interest.
The greater the interest the greater the number of breeders.
The greater the number of breeders the greater the quality.
The greater the quality, the greater the interest.
I\'d like to see the interest in Ameraucana\'s as well as the ABC grow in a positive way. One way would be with positive encouragement of others endeavors, not redirecting them to alternative discussions, perhaps never to return. Guide them not discourage them.
glen
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\"Guide them not discourage them. \" That is exactly what I\'m attempting to do. But neither is it kind to foster false or unrealistic expectations. It does not serve the best interest of the breed to say \"anything and everything is acceptable,\" or \"we really need about 30 new varieties\" when we really don\'t. The judges and members have enough trouble as it is trying to discern what is proper eye color and proper leg color so it would be counterproductive to confuse them further. There has to be a balance between what is good for the breed and what enthusiastic new members would like. I have raised birds with slow feathering, and it led to cannibalism. It\'s not good for this breed, as fast feathering has more advantages. Am I passionate about this issue and this breed? I\'ve been raising them nearly 35 years now, so you might say that. Thanks for listening to a cranky old troll, and have a good day.
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not all barreds have fast feathering gene or are canibals. and Ford motor company almost went under before it got going because he would only paint his cars black. I\'m not campaigning for more colors, am not a memeber of the association, have never had chickens before Februaryof this year, but am trying as hard as I can to learn as much as I can (and spend as much as I can- WAIT! That part I am doing without trying.) I am new to chickens but not new to breeding. I have bred world class paint horses for twenty years, as well as several breeds of dogs at different levels. I FULLY respect your consevation and protection of the breed from \"junk genes\" and fully understand and respect that barring is just a bad idea from your perspective. But basically your breed only has a few varietes, and to be honest, they are BORING. I looked at the photos and it is like looking at a big shoe sale after all the morning rush is over. Sure, there are a lot of shoes left for sale, like size 4, 9EEEE, and 12, most with clunky heels. Not saying the birds aren\'t beautiful, it is just that there are so few varieties that I can\'t believe they haven\'t been \"perfected\" after 35 years. Maybe they could have come a lot farther a lot faster with a wider pallete to choose from. Just my (sure to be shot down) two cents worth.
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Onthespot, your first sentence makes no sense whatsoever. Did you read the preceding posts? How easy it is to criticize. If these are \"boring\" to you as you say, there are plenty of other breeds out there to choose from. Why don\'t you start a new breed, develop 8 or more varieties in large fowl and the same number in bantams, then let us know how long it takes you to perfect them. And you have to start with mixed genetics mongrels. By the way, did you know chickens have 39 chromosome pairs? Humans have 23. I\'m not sure how many your hayburners have. Frankly, I find these comments from johnny come lately commentators rather amusing.
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How many barred rocks do we see at the shows? Not very many at the ones I attend.
Well i guess you missed the Ohio National today, where there was 32 bantam and 19 large fowl Barred Rocks exhibited in the open show, while there was far fewer Ameraucanas shown 7 bantams and 14 large in the entire show including Juniors. So it looks like some people have figured out how not to over crowd their cannibalistic birds so they can reach adulthood.
And for the record no one called you old, cranky, or a troll. Don\'t be so harsh on yourself.
peace
glen
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I\'ve got to stick up for the cranky troll (sorry Mike) here and ask because I really have to know. I have only been a serious breeder for about 4-5 years now.
How many other breeds are out there that have more than eight recognized color patterns?? I don\'t think there are very many. And, I believe the ones that do are very old breeds.
By the way at Last years Ameraucana Nationals in a very small town in Montana:
\"The number of Ameraucanas shown were 69 bantams and 70 large fowl\"
The economy and gas prices affected the ability of some of our members to attend.
Jean
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I don\'t mean to disprespect him either. Johnny come latelies should not be shouted down on their first foray. Johnny come latelies are the new blood and money that drives the growth of both the club and the breed. Johnny come latelies like to learn and are open to new ideas and proven methods. If you only keep the same old same old, might as well call it a museum and charge five dollars a peek. I fully respect what you have built, and have no intention to tear it down. I thank you for your insight and responses. I apoligize for my ignorance and breach from \"tradition\" since my posts on this board comprise my entire exposure to Amaraucana traditions, I\'d say you may rest your staff, you have saved the day from another Johnny Come Lately. I will never harm your breed, or your club. I will never cast an erring vote. I will never attend a meeting or a show and embarrass you with some off colored bird. I will never pay dues or sponsor club activities, or sponsor a kid. Your club is safe. Sleep well. You have conqured another Johnny Come Lately.
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Glen,
Thanks so much for your kind words. Peace to you to my friend. I wish I could have been there to see that many Barred Rocks, as I really admire them. I have a good friend, Earl Wilhelmi here in Wisconsin, who has some of the best, and usually is the only one showing them. As long as you don\'t try to raise them with fast feathering, more nervous type breeds it certainly can be done very successfully. I can only get to so many shows each year, as have quite a few other commitments that demand my time. Hope you have a good day.
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Patty,
We do need the so called \"Johnny come latelies\" and all of us started out there. From what I\'ve read you are not a novice when it comes to poultry.
I appreciate your thoughts on shank color and also those of Glen and Anne that were also posted recently. I believe all three of you raise valid points. As I said before there are already varying degrees of slate and even black shank/leg descriptions for Ameraucanas in the Standard. If color/pattern genes didn\'t have an affect on shank color we wouldn\'t allow black, only one shade of slate.
For many years there were (and maybe still are) many birds with yellow and willow shanks shown as Ameraucanas and made it very difficult for the breed and this club to gain the same respect as others, especially among the old timers. We now have a breed that is respected and generally accepted by fanciers. I don\'t believe you or the others on this forum want to \"harm\" the breed or club by raising the questions you have. Sometimes knowing some of the history of the breed and club helps to understand why opinions are what they are.
Some Ameraucana varieties were accepted by the APA before they existed. In recent years I\'ve worked on the new lavender varieties in bantams and large fowl, but spent about 20 years helping to develop some of those \"accepted\" varieties before trying a new one. If others want to breed-up new varieties it is completely up to them and this forum can be a great tool to share ideas, trials, successes and whatever about the project.
Keep in mind that it takes 5 breeders for 5 years and a big qualifying meet to get a variety accepted. To get that type of support I think anyone would also want the support of the breed club. I\'m sure the club members wouldn\'t support yellow, willow or white shanks.
Others don\'t have to agree, but I believe that just because it is assumed to by genetically impossible to breed true slate or black shanks on some varieties doesn\'t mean it can never ever happen. As I said in an earlier post...
If you can get a barred, cuckoo or other variety to breed true for any type of true slate (from light to dark) or black shanks I would think you have a viable variety.
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Yes, by all means, try to breed a barred bird with true slate shanks. \"Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.\" I\'ve got $100 for the first person that achieves a line of crisply barred, truly slate shanked Ameraucanas. I\'m putting my money where my mouth is, and I will be the first to congratulate that person. John, you and I will have to agree to disagree on this issue. Here are my thoughts, not that anyone gives a hoot. We don\'t need more varieties, we need better varieties. Likewise, we could use more dedicated, knowledgeable, and productive members instead of merely padding the membership list numberwise by catering to every whimsical notion that comes down the pike.
Take Jean out west for example - she seems to be doing great things with her birds. Paul, Barbara, Jerry and many others have worked hard, but we still have too few dedicated breeders for the sixteen recognized varieties (8 large, 8 bantam). None of us have unlimited time, money, and facilities, so when we all go in different directions very little gets accomplished.