Ameraucana Breeders Club
The Official Forum of the Ameraucana Breeders Club => Exhibiting & Promoting => Topic started by: Jean on March 01, 2011, 08:24:58 PM
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Some other clubs give their members points at shows and currently we do not. I have some examples of how other clubs do it and would like some more input on the subject.
To me it gives the term show quality a whole new meaning if the breeder does in fact show.
I am sure there are other members that have some good ideas too.
I would like to be perfectly clear on one thing; I do not think this is a job we should add to our Secretary/Treasurer Position. We have already combined it into one and Michael does a heck of job......
I\'ve got to run to a meeting, but will be back later.
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I was on the committee that wrote the Call Duck club point system, and was their \"Point Police \" LOL for several years. If you are looking for a volunteer - count me in.
This is the system that we came up with - pasted below. Just tossing it out there as a starting point for discussion.
Open point system
Supreme Grand Master Exhibitor: 10,000 Open points of all varieties added together.
Grand Master Exhibitor: 5,000 Open points of all varieties added together.
Master Breeder: 1,000 Open points in one variety.
Master Exhbitor: 800 Open points of all varieties added together.
Junior point system
Junior Master Breeder : 400 points earned in all varieties added together during an unlimited time frame, but before the youth\'s 19th birthday. These ameraucanas must be entered in the
junior show.
Junior Master Exhibitor: 100 points earned in all varieties added together during an unlimited time frame, but before the youth\'s 19th birthday. These ameraucanas must be entered in the
junior show.
Calculation of Points
B.V. Point calculation will be 1 point for every ameraucana exhibited within that variety/size (ie bantam or large fowl).
R.V. Point calculation will be 1 point for every ameraucana exhibited within that variety/size less one.
B.B. Point calculation will be 1 point for every ameraucana exhibited in that size.
R.B. Point calculation will be 1 point for every ameraucana exhibited in that size less one.
BB & RB are only awarded the higher BB & RB points; they are not eligible for the BV & or RV in addition to the BB & or RB points.
This system did not award points for anything higher than BB. That was a point that was brought up in discussion, but since it was a new system at that time, it was decided to not award point for higher than BB.
This system awarded points for both standardized & nonstandardized varieties and also tracked those points by variety so that members could reference top point winners by variety if they chose to.
By having a point system and loading the show reports onto the website, it is an easy reference for varieties that are striving toward standardization.
I think a point system is a wonderful idea and am excited to see the discussion on this topic.
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That is very similar to what I was looking at. From what I can tell, the points in that system can be tallied using our current meet reports.
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Absolutely correct, our current show report form is the same one that the Call Club uses- with some great tweeks from Michael of course. So, yes, the form we are using is perfect for tallying a point system off of. Since you do store past meet reports as well, you could make it retroactive for a few years back if you chose to as well.
If you chose to adapt a point system similar to the point system that I outlined in the previous post, you might discuss whether or not to add some type of point for Best Ameraucana of show, that would be higher than BB and it would be the best of both large and bantam. Our show report does include a section for Best ameraucana of show and reserve ameraucana of show.
Our current show report is not set up to show AOCCL or AOSB wins, but then that is winning over other breeds so it is probably not relevant anyway.
The other nice thing about a point system is that you can award a certificate or similar item for the top junior exhibitor and top open exhibitor for each year.
So let me plug a request if I may. We are considering a junior point system as well as an open show point system correct?
Patty
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While I don\'t intend to be a points chaser, I have no problem with those who wish to participate. It would probably increase entries at shows and therefore exposure to the public of our Ameraucanas. Good idea, as long as we don\'t put an added burden on the secretary, and it sounds like that would not be the case.
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Master Breeder
I\'ve always been opposed to assigning a \"Breeder\" title to anyone based on exhibiting. I know the ABA does it and I don\'t feel winning as an exhibitor necessarily has anything to do with breeding or being a master at it.
I don\'t have a problem with breed clubs acknowledging breeders or master breeders based on years of noticeable improvement or development of new varieties and breeds. I just don\'t think it should be associated with exhibiting...IMHO :)
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John,
I agree with you on that point entirely. I feel that master exhibitor is a much better title once someone reaches a designated point level. As you have said, showing and breeding are two entirely different things. I think the breeder level was designated for points received within just one variety, ie buff bantam. In order for someone to reach a 1,000 or so points in one variety, they either have to have a very nice pocketbook to load the classes or they are breeding that variety.
I just put that point system example up there as a starting point of discussion; it is easier to say what we like and dont like if we are all looking at the same thing. I thing with great discussion we can develop a system that is unique & tailored to our breed, something that is perfect for our club.
Mike, you are correct in that once a point system is in place in a club, show entries do go up. This would be a way to increase the visibility of our breed on the show floor, and bring in many new members.
Patty
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I like the points system you have pointed out. I think we may tweek it a bit to fit us better.
On the calculation of points, most of the other breed clubs count the number of birds exhibited minus your bird, because you didn\'t beat yourself.....
Maybe for designating different varieties, we just keep a tally for all varieties and if someone gets enough points to be designated a master exhibitor just in one variety, that would be pointed out. They could also get a master exhibitor from a combined total also....
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Maybe for designating different varieties, we just keep a tally for all varieties and if someone gets enough points to be designated a master exhibitor just in one variety, that would be pointed out.
Just be careful how some of those titles are phrased. A \"Master Buff Exhibitor\" may sound like it has more to do with streaking then showing buff chickens to the outside world. :o :o :o
(not that I really care what they think)
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You\'d have to be in pretty good shape to get an award for that, otherwise your just going to jail.............
John, The Master Buff Exhibitor....
(http://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/img/smilies/wee.gif)
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*cough* *wheeze* I should have learned by now not to take a drink of soda before reading John\'s posts...
Master Buff Exhibitors may increase turnout - would certainly get us plenty of, er, exposure!
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John,
I can not believe you just said that. What a hoot!
Jean, you are correct. The way I have done it in the past is to make a list of open show members & track open show points on that roster. Then make a list of junior show members and track the junior show points on that second roster.
By variety is a third roster and generally it is only open show points that get moved onto a \"by variety\" roster. That roster would be a list of open show members under each separate variety/ size. Points get updated each month when the show reports are updated. It is actually a fun reference tool for those that are looking to purchase birds for new stock and also it is a fun recognition for those that are super passionate about a particular variety/size.
Patty
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This is very similar to the UOC point system. We do award points for past BB because so few Orpingtons are shown. Same with Ameraucanas. So, in my opinion it would be nice for a bird to pick up a few extra points for beating those harder to beat birds, such as the infamous white Araucanas shown in my area. Below is what we could have:
Bonus points to be awarded for Ameraucanas rising to Champion and Reserve AOCCL or AOSB. 5 Bonus points would be awarded to Champion AOCCL or AOSB and 4 to Reserve AOCCL or AOSB.
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This is very similar to the UOC point system. We do award points for past BB because so few Orpingtons are shown. Same with Ameraucanas. So, in my opinion it would be nice for a bird to pick up a few extra points for beating those harder to beat birds, such as the infamous white Araucanas shown in my area. Below is what we could have:
Bonus points to be awarded for Ameraucanas rising to Champion and Reserve AOCCL or AOSB. 5 Bonus points would be awarded to Champion AOCCL or AOSB and 4 to Reserve AOCCL or AOSB.
This sounds great!
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You guys are a riot! What a hoot! The humor just made my day.
On a serious note, I\'d like to second all the above. I think it would be great to have the Club recognize those who are putting forth the time, effort, and expense to get our great bird some awareness and recognition.
Most of the shows I\'ve been to, I\'ve either been the sole Ameraucana exhibitor or one of two. The last show there were two of us but I had the only LF.
Now I don\'t say that as a \"humble brag\" but rather as just an actual example. I\'m sure others encounter the same experience. So why not recognize those who, as I said, put forth the time, effort, and expense to promote the breed?
With regard to Master Breeder vs. Master Exhibitor, I\'m with John on that too. I don\'t buy other folks\' birds just to show them myself but I know people do that. How would one go about knowing whether or not a bird shown is one that\'s been bred by that person other than just take their word for it? Just curious?
And for some, given that they may never see their name as an APA Master Exhibitor because of the lack of breed participation, it might be enough for them to see their name as an ABC Master Exhibitor to keep them from giving up on the breed and going to something else.
Just my thoughts.
God Bless,
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Jean,
Where are we at with the point system program? Is this something that the directors vote on and then goes to the membership in a bulletin vote, or is it something that a director vote just passes or declines? Just curious as to how that process works.
Patty
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Well, I was hoping to get a bit more discussion about it. I will probably end up discussing it with you some more in the near future since you have knowlege and experience with this kind of thing.
I believe once a final working \"system\" is realized, I would send it to the Directors and we would vote on it. I will have to check the by-laws to make sure I haven\'t missed anything though.
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I didn\'t know if installing a point system was a constitution change or if it had nothing to do with the constitution.
I do agree that it would be nice to see extra points awarded for AOCCL or AOSB reserve or champ. We would need to do a slight tweek to our show report forms to add that line in there. It shouldn\'t be a problem to find the space on the report though.
Patty
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I don\'t know if it will be a \"constitution\" change either. Article VIII deals with club meets, but doesn\'t include some of the detailed items like what awards we offer, so it seems sort of a gray area to me. I\'ll have to dig into it deeper.
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The Call club created its point system in 2004, so not too long ago. For that club it was not a constitution change, and it is not listed in their constitution anywhere. The system was voted on by the board of directors and officers, after accepted by them, it went before the membership in a newsletter... but I can\'t remember if it was voted on by the membership or not. Probably it was as it really does affect the membership and it was a new program. But I cant remember for sure.
I only reference the Call club because their point system is relatively new so it gives us a base as to what they did.
Does anyone know of other breed clubs that recently accepted or discussed the acceptance of a point system and what that club did for their process?
Patty
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We have most of the necessary information to run a pilot point system for those interested to review what 2010 or 2009 point totals would look like. We will need to collect the Champion and Reserve Champion AOSB and AOCCL from shows.
There are several shows that club members will have to take responsibility for sending in meet reports since the show club normally does not send in a meet report.
I would suggest a pilot to test data collection and a report and article in the next Bulletin. Sometimes folks need to see the actual numbers in order to be able to discuss a new program.
Michael
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a report and article in the next Bulletin
The forum is a great place to get member input, but since not all ABC members are on the forum I agree that an article in the Bulletin is in order to solicite more response before the directors make any decisions.
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It is the show club\'s responsibility to send in meet reports; however, I agree that many do not. It does not take long to fill out a show report form though, so possibly we could ask the person requesting the meet to fill out the report form if an officer or director is not at the meet.
I dont know if I would go backward to try and locate the past AOCCL or past AOSB info. It was not on our show report forms and we dont want to inconvenience the show secretaries with past data collection. If the directors decide that they do want AOSB & AOCCL placings in the point system, we could just tweek the show report form a bit to include it for future meets.
Patty
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There are several shows that club members will have to take responsibility for sending in meet reports since the show club normally does not send in a meet report.
There is an easy solution for that problem. No more meets until and unless show reports are received from the show secretary. This should not be the responsibility of members.
What happens when a member sends in a report, and then a show secretary sends in a conflicting report? It could easily happen. In fact it Did happen with one of our Chantecler Fanciers meets last year.
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I ran into that a couple time as well with the Call club, but it was not very often. Out of a few hundred show reports that only came up twice. In that case, I would say you have to contact the show secretary for verification as to not a typo on the show sect part, and ultimately go with that official report.
Guess I am just thinking that I would rather see us cover all bases and make sure that we get a report. If a member sends one in and the show sect also remembers to send one in- great. But if the show sect forgets or does not get around to sending one in, then we always have the one from the ABC member or director for our records.
Yes, you are correct, it is possible for a mistake to happen; but it doesn\'t very often. It is easy to sort it out if a conflict occurs.
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I wasn\'t suggesting to contact show clubs for information from 2009 and 2010. I was suggesting there is enough information currently for folks to get an idea of what the system would be like.
Michael
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I wasn\'t suggesting to contact show clubs for information from 2009 and 2010. I was suggesting there is enough information currently for folks to get an idea of what the system would be like.
Michael
I think that sounds like a great idea. Michael, is that information you would like to forward to someone to figure up for you? I\'d be happy to help any way I can! :)
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Michael, you are correct about AOCCL and AOSB. I was flipping through the club newsletters back to 2005 and many of the show reports listed in there have AOCCL and AOSB info, some dont, but many do. So you are right, it would be very easy to pull the needed point info from what we currently have on hand and drop it into word and the points into an excel spreadsheet to create a nice format for a newsletter or website viewing. My previous offer still stands, please do let me know if you would like help with data entry and charting.
Patty
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Changing the subject slightly....
Are points kept on all ABC meets or only qualified meets?
If only qualified meets then what is the criteria? A certain number of exhibitors or a certain number of large fowl and bantam ameraucana exhibited in the show? Can the junior show and open show numbers be added together to meet the minimum requirements? ( Open show would be reported on the open show report and the junior show would be reported on the junior show report. But so long as the show had the minimum number of ameraucana exhibited or the minimum number of ameraucana exhibitors then it qualifies?)
To give us something to compare to- the call club requires 3 exhibtiors and a minimum of 25 calls entered. Now it could be 1 open show exhibitor with 10 open calls entered in the show and 2 junior exhibitors with 15 calls entered in the junior show or any other number set that would add up to the minimum of 3 exhibitors and 25 calls. This would meet their minimum requirement for a qualified special meet. A district or national meet requires 3 exhibitors but 50 calls.
Obviously those numbers would be high for us. But just wondering what the opinions were on how a show would be qualified to have points tallied and recorded.
Patty
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I\'m not sure if the following is the most up-to-date meet policy, but Michael would know. The qualifications used now could remain as points are given instead of rosettes.
FYI, at our Fowl Fest in Michigan all birds are in the open show and then the Jr birds are judged separately. You would have to be careful that Jr birds or exhibitors weren\'t counted twice, so I wouldn\'t think a Jr birds or exhibitors would have anything to do with the numbers from an open show.
ABC MEET POLICY
Current policy as set by the Board of Directors allows for ABC meet awards at two tiers or levels for Open Show competition at club sanctioned meets.
1. With three or more exhibitors of Ameraucana in a class (bantam or large fowl) a rosette is earned for Best of Breed.
2. With five or more exhibitors of Ameraucana in a class (bantam or large fowl) a rosette is also earned for Reserve of Breed.
In Junior competition, regardless of the number of exhibitors of Ameraucana in a class (bantam or large fowl), a rosette is earned for Best of Breed.
Nonmembers may count as exhibitors, but are not eligible for club awards. If members holding a \"family\" membership enter a meet as individuals, they may compete against each other for purposes of club awards.
Meets will only be placed if a member requests a meet for a specific show in time for the distribution of information via the ABC quarterly Bulletin prior to the entry deadline for that show. For planning purposes, members need to know well in advance when and where meets are placed. As a general rule of thumb, meets should only be placed where it is reasonably expected that three or more members will show.
In the event a member is refused placement of a meet the Secretary shall provide a satisfactory explanation to the member. If the member is not satisfied, he or she then may appeal the decision in writing to the President, who shall poll the Board of Directors. The Secretary will have an opportunity to defend his or her decision to the entire Board; a simple majority vote of the Board of Directors shall be final in any such dispute.
Ameraucana Breeders Club awards available to members only
In Junior competition class (bantam or large fowl) –
Best of Breed.…………………….Rosette
With 3 or more exhibitors in each Open Show class (bantam or large fowl) –
Best of Breed.…………………….Rosette
With 5 or more exhibitors in an Open Show class (bantam or large fowl) –
Best of Breed & Reserve of Breed ……………….Rosettes
Rev. 1/17/09
Of course the part about the \"secretary\" placing the meets is changed to directors due to the change we voted on.
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For clarification- does this mean that to be a qualified show there must be 3 bantam exhibitors and 3 largefowl exhibitors for the open show to be considered qualified? Or does it mean 3 bantam open exhibitors or 3 large fowl open exhibitors to meet the minimum to qualify?
With 3 or more exhibitors in each Open Show class (bantam or large fowl) –
Best of Breed.…………………….Rosette
Does this statement mean that the junior show need only 1 exhibitor to be considered a qualified junior show?
In Junior competition, regardless of the number of exhibitors of Ameraucana in a class (bantam or large fowl), a rosette is earned for Best of Breed.
So If I am understanding this correctly, the junior show could qualify for points but the open show might not qualify if only 1 open and 1 junior exhibited?
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does it mean 3 bantam open exhibitors or 3 large fowl open exhibitors to meet the minimum to qualify?
Yes, it is \"or\".
Does this statement mean that the junior show need only 1 exhibitor to be considered a qualified junior show?
Yes, to encourage youth to exhibit Ameraucanas...even those that aren\'t ABC members.
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The devil seems to be in the details doesnt it? It\'s kinda like the Good Book says in Ecclesiastes, \"A meaningless chasing after the wind.\"
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We used to ask to have the top bantams judged against the top LF, but often times that was just not done at the shows. I know as a former show superintendent that it can be easily overlooked as everyone gets busy and most breed clubs don\'t ask for it thier meet reports. We still do it for our national meets, since there are special awards for champion over-all.
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I know that at the shows that I attend, when I am filling out the show report forms, I always go to the judge with the form and ask which was best in juniors ( large or bantam) and which was best in Open. The judge is always good to go take a look. I think it gets overlooked because usually there is a different judge for large than bantam so they have to get together and decide.
So to clarify further.. what if there was 1 large fowl open exhibitor and 2 bantam open exhibitors? Would that qualify? Or must there be 3 bantam exhibitors or 3 large fowl exhibitors for the show to qualify?
If we only need 1 junior exhbitor that would certainly encourage our juniors. Any show they went to would qualify them for points... so long as it was a show that was granted a meet by the director of course.
If we can get our kids excited, those parents will come along to see their kids excell. I have always been a strong advocate of a youth program within a breed club. It does build the club\'s numbers.
Our club does need a youth program IMHO... has there been discussion on that in the past? Have we ever had a youth director? What would be the process of bringing a motion to the board to discuss the adding of an official youth program? And secondly, if the youth program passed, what would be the process of putting a youth director possition on our next election docket?
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I always go to the judge
I don\'t feel it is appropriate for exhibitors to go directly to the judges. The communication should always go thru the show superintendent.
3 bantam exhibitors or 3 large fowl exhibitors for the show to qualify?
Current policy as set by the Board of Directors allows for ABC meet awards at two tiers or levels for Open Show competition at club sanctioned meets.
1. With three or more exhibitors of Ameraucana in a class (bantam or large fowl) a rosette is earned for Best of Breed.
...not necessarily ABC members, but \"exhibitors\".
If we only need 1 junior exhibitor that would certainly encourage our juniors.
I think it\'s been that way for over two years and don\'t know of any increase. I think a lot of kids are pushed (encouraged) into hobbies like this by parents and 4H type clubs. Some of the parents try to live their lives thru thier children\'s hobby\'s and sports activities. Those kids fall away from the fancy once they mature. Not to say that they don\'t enjoy it while they are into it. It\'s like my granddaughters going thru the \"I love horses\" phase. It\'s just part of life.
Many of the adult members that have joined this club start out gung ho and after a few years you never hear from them again. And, that\'s alright too.
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I pulled this text from the meet request at the downloads section:
Champion Ameraucana Over-All in the JR Show….Rosette
With 3 or 4 Exhibitors in the Open Show we offer…
Champion & Reserve Ameraucana Over-All...……..Rosettes
Or with 5 or more Exhibitors in the Open Show we offer…
BB & RB Bantam and BB & RB Large Fowl.……….Rosettes
This is what I have been following when I send out rosettes. The Board cleaned up this language a few years ago to make it easier for rosettes to be earned. Yes, I am behind on the rosettes!
I am not sure what a \"qualifying meet\" is for the Ameraucana Breeders Club. The way we place meets, I think once a meet is place it is a qualified meet. Just my opinion.
I suggest keeping things as simple as possible. I would track information from ABC placed meets as listed in the Bulletin. I would only use official Show Club meet reports. For the Show Clubs that send in meet reports, none have been confused by the form and have reported all the requested information.
I suggest using the list in the Bulletin, because some Show Clubs take the perpetual meet placement philosophy if you place a meet with them once.
Michael
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\"qualifying meet\"
I\'m interpreting it as having enough exhibitors at a meet for them to qualify for awards(?)
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I pulled this text from the meet request at the downloads section:
Champion Ameraucana Over-All in the JR Show….Rosette
With 3 or 4 Exhibitors in the Open Show we offer…
Champion & Reserve Ameraucana Over-All...……..Rosettes
Or with 5 or more Exhibitors in the Open Show we offer…
BB & RB Bantam and BB & RB Large Fowl.……….Rosettes
This is what I have been following when I send out rosettes. The Board cleaned up this language a few years ago to make it easier for rosettes to be earned. Yes, I am behind on the rosettes!
I am not sure what a \"qualifying meet\" is for the Ameraucana Breeders Club. The way we place meets, I think once a meet is place it is a qualified meet. Just my opinion.
I suggest keeping things as simple as possible. I would track information from ABC placed meets as listed in the Bulletin. I would only use official Show Club meet reports. For the Show Clubs that send in meet reports, none have been confused by the form and have reported all the requested information.
I suggest using the list in the Bulletin, because some Show Clubs take the perpetual meet placement philosophy if you place a meet with them once.
Michael
Michael, this is kind of off subject, but I was wondering how long after a show the Ch. and Res. Ch. Ameraucanas might expect to receive the rosettes?? My bantam roo took Ch. Am. at the Washington Feather Fanciers show in December, with three open exhibitors...I\'m wondering if it was an issue with the show report form, it was somewhat unorganized it seemed, and I had to go and tell them that they were supposed to have the judges choose Ch and Res Ch Ameraucana, they had no idea... :(
Also, on this subject, now that it\'s somewhat clearer, the junior exhibitor they chose as Res. Ch. Ameraucana should have a rosette for Ch. Am. of junior show... :/
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\"qualified meets\"
I asked that question because some breed clubs place a meet at a show, but if there is not enough exhibitors or not enough birds from that club entered then the meet does not \"qualify\" for points, or awards for that matter. I was questioning if our club went to a point system, what would be the criteria for awarding those points. Would it be a minimum number of ameraucana exhibited in the show, or a mininum number of exhibitors showing ameraucana, or no minimums.
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I am terribly behind on rosettes. It is so expensive to mail them that I try to coordinate with the bulletin if possible. In an ideal world shows in mid-April should have meet reports to me by May 15th and I would mail the February-April awards. That is just a shot in the dark at a time frame.
I probably try too hard on the rosettes. Instead of just mailing them, I fix up labels so folks have a record of what the ribbon was for.
I would keep the qualified meet piece really simple - a meet placed by the club. Someone might have a really nice bantam Ameraucana go Champion AOCCL and not get points.
Michael
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I am terribly behind on rosettes. It is so expensive to mail them that I try to coordinate with the bulletin if possible. In an ideal world shows in mid-April should have meet reports to me by May 15th and I would mail the February-April awards. That is just a shot in the dark at a time frame.
I probably try to hard on the rosettes. Instead of just mailing them, I fix up labels so folks have a record of what the ribbon was for.
I would keep the qualified meet piece really simple - a meet placed by the club. Someone might have a really nice bantam Ameraucana go Champion AOCCL and not get points.
Michael
Thanks Michael. You\'re awesome! Just wanted to make sure I didn\'t need to do something more on my end. :)
I really like your thoughts on having the points awarded at any meet placed. There are VERY few Ameraucana exhibitors out here, and if ONE of us opted out of a show it would affect the rest of us badly.
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Just wondering where we are at with a point system. Is this still in the discussion stages or has a mock point system been written up? Is the board in favor of this or was it voted down?
Patty
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Just wondering where we are at with a point system. Is this still in the discussion stages or has a mock point system been written up? Is the board in favor of this or was it voted down?
Patty
I was just going to post something like this right now as well!! :) I was hoping something would be up and running in time for fall shows.
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Well, to tell you the truth, I kind of dropped the ball on this one. I had a bunch of other stuff come up like filing a grievance with the ABA and hatching season......
Patty, did you send me the point system information that the call duck club uses? I can\'t find anything in my e-mails about it.
I will get the ball rolling again on this and we may take you up on being the point keeper for it.
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I have the document scanned as a JPEG into a word document and can not find a way to paste it into this forum. I have tried to compress the document so that it would attach, but I just cant get it small enough for the forum.... Sorry. I wanted to have it available for everyone to look at.
Jean, I will send it to you as an attachment to an email. Perhaps you can sort out how to make it available for the forum discussion.
thanks~
Patty