Ameraucana Breeders Club
The Official Forum of the Ameraucana Breeders Club => Ameraucana Marketplace => Topic started by: Johnny Parks on December 29, 2007, 12:40:41 PM
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Wormlin asked
are your Red Pyle Wheaten based or BBred?
The cock in my avatar is a cross between white ameraucana and wheaten ameraucana.
The new generation birds that I plan to work from are crosses of white ameraucana / red pyle old english and wheaten ameraucana / red pyle old english.
In answer to your question, I figure my Red Pyle Ameraucana project is based off of both Wheaten Ameraucana and (BBRed, from the Red Pyle Old English). (?)
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Red Pyle Wheaten based or BBred?
Even though we say white Ameraucanas are recessive white, evidently Johnny\'s carried dominate white to produce the red pyle looking cockerel. It is not uncommon for dominate white to be in strains of recessive white birds from what I\'ve read other places.
I would say the cockerel in Johnny\'s avatar is \"white wheaten\", since it is based on the wheaten (@ E-locus) pattern of the Ameraucana and not the wild type BB red pattern which would make it a true red pyle variety. It could be shown as a red pyle, but the females wouldn\'t have the salmon breast color (e+) and wouldn\'t compete as red pyle. Correct me if I\'m wrong here in this assumption.
Although wheaten and BB red males look alike their female counterparts don\'t, because they are different varieties based on different E-locus genes.
Once crossing in the OE red pyle (or BB red) he will have to select the females with the proper feather pattern/color to breed toward red pyle that breed true.
Why not create a white wheaten variety, so you don\'t have to cross with OE and you would have a new variety that you could exhibit the males and females together?
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I have a LF game hen that took me a while to figure out. She was to be a white Claret and White Kelso mix. I got an assortment of LF game eggs, looking for varieties to breed on to our American Game Bantams. I was thinking I would get a white bird. Nope, from what I can now tell she is a wheaten with dominate white. She is a pretty bird and produced some nice looking wheaten red pyle cockerels. I\'m planning on breeding her on to a BBred to produce red pyle on the e+ locus.
This is one of her daughters.
(http://mysite.verizon.net/resq8yfh/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/discussion6.jpg)
I know not an Ameraucana or even an EE but i feel it represents what Johnny may be producing. If I\'m off base, please let me know.
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The red pyle looking cockerel in my avatar is a one of a kind bird. I do not have any females...his sisters, nor any of the original parent birds that produced this cross. Therefore, I cannot make the same cross again to achieve females for this cockerel. The hens were destroyed when wild critters tore into the pen. This rooster survived the attack. The hens that I had looked like owls. They had white bodies and only their heads were reddish orange and this color carried throughout their beards and muffs. They were bearded and muffed just the same as any other ameraucana hen, but their beards and muffs colored different than their bodies gave them that odd owl look. Would these hens have fit the description of a \"white wheaten\" female?
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I\'d have to say NO, not white wheaten. Sounds more like the standard Red pyle from the BBred Family. He is split for wheaten and wild type so he could be bred either way to wheaten or wild type.
If you use a silver hen, the pullets will be BBR or Red Pyle, the cockerels will be more a golden duckwing or \"golden Pyle\" looking birds since the silver is sex linked.
If you breed to a wheaten you will get a quarter wheaten, wheaten pyle, BBr and Red Pyle.
Depending on which way you want to take it, you can still recover your project.
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He is split for wheaten and wild type
If he is the result of a wheaten/white cross I would think he is split for wheaten and extended black.
use a silver hen
Sounds like a good plan. You can get to red pyle without going outside the Ameraucana breed. Put the cock back over his red pyle daughters and I think that would be that.
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If he is the result of a wheaten/white cross I would think he is split for wheaten and extended black.
I just missed that line in johnny\'s post, thanks for correcting me. I thought I read he was half old english.
I would have thought the Extended black would have been dominate over the wheaten giving him a much different look. Either way he\'s a good place to start.
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How would you go about creating a Red Pyle Ameraucana without any outcrossing from other breeds? I\'m thinking white x wheaton since there are no BB Red Ameraucana varieties. Would the F1 offspring be considered Red Pyle or is there a lot more involved?
Merry Christmas to all!
Even though Ameraucana whites are supposed to be \"recessive white\" some may carry \"dominant white\" and produce red pyle offspring when crossed with silver (wild type) Ameraucanas.
FYI, I use the breeding terminology definitions that Ralph Sturgeon has in the glossary of his \"Start Where You Are With What You Have\" book. So an \"Outcross\" would be crossing different strains of a particular breed. To \"crossbreed\" is \"mating two...individuals from totally different breeds\".
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Even though Ameraucana whites are supposed to be \"recessive white\" some may carry \"dominant white\" and produce red pyle offspring when crossed with silver (wild type) Ameraucanas.
Would you get a red pyle with that first cross? It sounds like what you\'re saying but that sounds too simple, lol!
Didn\'t you mention before that you could also get red pyle with the dominant white and a black red Ameraucana? If so, would that be with the first cross?
If either works, is one preferred over the other?
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Just wondering if anyone saw the question.
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I believe that is what John is saying. I might try the cross this year and see what I get.
Michael
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Would you get a red pyle with that first cross?
If the white bird is \"dominant\" white you would be close. One problem is the silver birds carry \"silver\" and you want \"gold\". To build a red pyle Ameraucana you need to use silvers which bring in the wildtype (e+) e-locus gene that is the foundation. You\'ll need dominant white which will turn the black areas white while leaving the red areas red (gold). You\'ll also need to bring in the sex-linked gold (red) gene to turn the white (silver) areas of a silver bird red (gold) so they would appear black breasted red (BB red). The gold color could be brought in by using brown red, wheaten or some black Ameraucanas.
With a plan and some luck finding a dominant white Ameraucana it would be a nice project.
Didn\'t you mention before that you could also get red pyle with the dominant white and a black red Ameraucana?
If you mean black breasted red I may have. The problem would be finding one. The alternative is to make one and then again finding a white that carries dominant white.
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dominant
I had it right 2 out of 5 times. Sounds like a loosing score and I should have read what I wrote.
Tanks,
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Ok, thank you.........& thank you in advance for listening to my ramblings! I know you are busy people.
I\'m totally new to chickens genetics obviously, but I do have some background in the genetics of cats, the colors, patterns, masking genes, etc, so I\'m not completely unteachable!
I do have several birds that exhibit dominant white. I posted them on another thread a while back thinking they might be blue wheatens (pale bodies with darker buff colored hackles), and one of you said that they weren\'t BW but were PROBABLY buff with a dose of dominant white, but you couldn\'t be 100%.
Mike Gilbert... I\'m guessing these birds have a dose of dominant white, which changes black to white, but leaves the red pigment. Dominant white over black breasted red gives the red pyle color for example.
Well, now that the chicks are about 4 or 5 months old, I\'m pretty sure that guess was correct.
The birds all show white. Several have nice white bodies with golden or reddish laced hackle feathers, which are white in the center where the black would normally be. The white areas of the body also have a few odd/stray black feathers here and there like many dominant white birds commonly have. My Sultans have this. (I\'ve heard this was due to a silver gene which creates a superior white...?...but can\'t remember where I heard that, might be false information)
I have 3 Ameraucana/EE females with this very pretty coloration, very similar looking to a red pyle. I\'ve gotten several compliments on them. I\'d love to either get more (have no idea whether they\'d breed true or not), or even try to use them to produce red pyle. Two of the females have slate legs, but the third has willow, and her white is \"dirty\" or pale grayish looking, so I\'m not sure what\'s coming through there, but as long as she\'s here and being productive I might as well keep her and see what she produces.
Just trying to decide what color of roo I need to breed them too to either breed more, or see if I can get red pyle out of them. They\'re just too pretty to throw in with the EE\'s and forget about. I\'ll have to get a new photo.
Of the males I have that show the dominant white, one is solid white, but has a bad comb (trying very hard to be a single comb, too high in the center) and not much beard or muffs. I wanted to give him away, but I\'d sure hate to and then find out he is just what I need.
The other is the buff/dominant white. He has a nice comb, nice beard and muffs, but has willow legs.
I\'m not real crazy about either of these and would like to find them a new home, but do I need them? I already have the dominant white in the females, so I can cull them, correct?
I do have a great looking wheaten roo in my EE pen because he has some black in his hackles (carrying brown red?), and willow legs. Could I get what genes I need from him, or would the willow legs be too hard to breed out? He\'s gorgeous otherwise and is a great rooster.
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Oh, and I also have one solid white female the same age to add to the mix. I\'d think she was also dominant white but I\'m not sure. I haven\'t thought to look her over for any odd black feathers.
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If you think your birds are dominant white with gold try crossing them to the Silver Ameraucana variety. I would like to see pictures of your project birds.
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I\'ll take some pictures soon, possibly today but definately by this weekend. I\'ve been getting home too late the last few days and haven\'t had good light.
Ok, so getting a silver roo should be my next step. But, where to put another rooster???
I guess I could just get Ameraucanas the easy way by ordering eggs or chicks from someone, and I may wind up doing that too, but I just love the red pyle coloration and making your own seems to be the only way to get them right now.
Your roo is gorgeous by the way!
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I would go the other way if possible, i.e., a male carrying dominant white and sex linked gold over silver ameraucana females. The silver is sex linked, so with a silver male all females would be pure silver (you want gold), and the males would be split - but the silver is dominant so males would not look much like pyles.
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go the other way if possible, i.e., a male carrying dominant white and sex linked gold over silver ameraucana females
Right on.
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This is the buff/white roo (with the willow legs) from a few months ago. He\'s about 5 months old now.
He now looks like a red pyle/buff cross. His upper wing area has turned dark red, and his tail feathers are mostly white with some having buff edges.
Click to enlarge.
(http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/9631/img58921mi6.th.jpg) (http://img103.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img58921mi6.jpg)
The only option for my 3 females then would still be to breed them to a silver male though right, even if I get all splits?...and then cross a male back to the females?
In the meantime I guess I could cross this buff/white male with the 3 girls and see what I get. Maybe just more pretty EE\'s!
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After looking at the enlarged pic of the rooster - am I seeing a few dark flecks in the tail & wings? If so, he could just as well be a black tailed red/buff carrying two copies of Bl rather than dominant white. I guess the easiest way to find out is to breed him.
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After looking at the enlarged pic of the rooster - am I seeing a few dark flecks in the tail & wings? If so, he could just as well be a black tailed red/buff carrying two copies of Bl rather than dominant white.
I doubt it. There are only a few odd black feathers, just like the females have in their white areas, and this is pretty common with dominant white. LIke I mentioned earlier, I have other white birds with two or three black feathers....sometimes not even the whole feather will be black. He has one like that in his tail. At least one female has one on her back where there is only white. I\'ll just breed him like you said, and we\'ll see what comes of it.
I\'d be interested in getting some silver chicks this year, whether I get red pyle with these project birds or not. I like the silver color, especially on the roosters.
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Here is the cockerel now.
He\'s around 4 or 5 months old.
You can click to enlarge.
(http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/1066/img65041vz0.th.jpg) (http://img12.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img65041vz0.jpg)
(http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/4290/img64961xd7.th.jpg) (http://img24.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img64961xd7.jpg)
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Here are the 3 females.
Click to enlarge them.
The one at the top in the first photo is the one that has the slightly gray/blue tinge to her feathers.
(http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/146/img65021rv2.th.jpg) (http://img9.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img65021rv2.jpg)
(http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/7885/img64811ol2.th.jpg) (http://img9.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img64811ol2.jpg)
(http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/4020/img64801ub6.th.jpg) (http://img25.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img64801ub6.jpg)
Hope you like them! I think they\'re just gorgeous, but I\'m sure everyone thinks that about their birds.
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Very, very beautiful birds!
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Thank you! I really like their look.
I\'m wondering now though if the females aren\'t actually a buff/DW cross after all, since they have the pretty lacing. Wouldn\'t they be more likely BBR and dominant white? ...but wouldn\'t that BE red pyle?
Maybe the female with the slight blue tinge to her feathers could be BLUE breasted black/DW.
The male can\'t be BBR and DW though, since his chest isn\'t white. If I\'m thinking correctly the DW would change a black chest to white, not this gold or buff color, so he probably IS buff/DW. Ugh, my brain hurts!
I do have a female EE that I think is BBR. I\'ll see if I have a pic of her. She does have dark greenish slate legs though, not a good slate color at all.
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Ok, fuzzy pic but here is the EE hen that I think is a BBR. I just remembered that she lays a pinkish cream egg though. :(
(http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/4764/img58012lx1.jpg\" alt=\"Image Hosted by ImageShack.us\")
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After looking at the enlarged pic of the rooster - am I seeing a few dark flecks in the tail & wings? If so, he could just as well be a black tailed red/buff carrying two copies of Bl rather than dominant white.
Oh! I just got what you were saying there, sorry. That never even occurred to me, but I think you might be right.
Well, if that\'s so, then I don\'t guess I should breed him to the 3 pullets. I do have the solid white boy. I guess I\'ll see what happens there. Maybe only solid whites? Maybe mutts!
Isn\'t this girl in the photo below black tailed buff then? If so I\'d like to pair them up.
This is an older pic. She\'s mature now and is laying nice blue-green eggs, not to mention she has really great leg color.
Is anyone already working on Black Tailed Buff?
(http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/1990/img45216.jpg)
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On my screen she is showing up as more of a New Hamp Red color than black tailed buff. This is similar to the black tailed light red color in Nankin bantams. I had black tailed buff in bantams years ago, but we were working on solid buff at the time, and nobody else seemed too interested in them, so I gave them up. Take a look at the buff color in the photos section and see if you notice the difference in shade.
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That pic was made in the shade, so it might appear a little dark. She is a little darker than that particular LF buff hen, but no where near a New Hampshire red. She is pretty close to the Nankins I googled though, and also the pics of the BT Buff Japanese. I just saw a photo of a BT Buff Japanese chick and she looked almost identical when she was a chick.
When I put the two side by side, this girl and the cockerel above, they are very similar in color.
I know a lot of people like Buffs, I personally like BT Buff better, but I could see where it might not be as popular.
I got my birds mainly to have fresh eggs, and for entertainment for the kids and myself more than anything else. I just think a few of them have some potential if paired up right, and I\'d like to see what they\'d produce. I really don\'t want to disguard them (we like them), and I definately don\'t have the room or the funds right now to go out and buy all new chickens. I guess we\'ll see.