Ameraucana Breeders Club

The Official Forum of the Ameraucana Breeders Club => Exhibiting & Promoting => Topic started by: Paul on November 27, 2017, 11:41:28 AM

Title: South-Central District and Fayetteville, Arkansas club meet Nov. 4 & 5, 2017
Post by: Paul on November 27, 2017, 11:41:28 AM: Sorry this is so late-been swamped in work since the Fayetteville shows. Normally I try to write the reports on the way home but I was either driving or asleep.

The South Central district held it’s annual district meet in Fayetteville, Arkansas at the Heart of the Ozarks (HOTO) poultry show on November 4 and 5, 2017. Seven ABC members from 4 states exhibited 36 large fowl and 9 bantams in the open show. Four junior showed 4 large fowl and 4 bantams for a total of 53 Ameraucanas.

Brad Stonebarger of Triple S farm showed 9 brown red bantams in the open show judged by Paul Monteith of Canada, with two cockerels winning BV, RV, BB and RB. It was great to learn that Brad is breeding brown red bantams. Keirsten Klaus showed 3 wheaten and 1 blue wheaten bantams in the junior show which was judged by Steven Beaty of New Mexico., Keirsten’s wheaten cockerel won BV, BB and Res. AOCCL. One of her wheaten pullets won RV and RB. Keirsten has a very good start purchased from Jeff and Cheryl Vance. Ameraucana bantams are getting good starts in the SC district now, with several ABC members breeding them. There will be an increase of Ameraucana bantams in the SC district shows as they come more available.

Four large fowl black Ameraucanas were shown by 3 Juniors with Steven Beaty selecting a cockerel shown by Adrian Stripe for BV and BB and Jackson Moore’s hen RV and RB.

Three large fowl blues were shown in the open show. Paul & Angela Smith won BV on a pullet and Clif Redden won RV on a pullet. Four blue wheatens were shown with Ann Horsman winning BV on a cock and RV on a hen, from chicks purchased two years ago from Paul & Angela Smith. Two wheatens were shown with Ann Horsman winning BV on a hen and Paul & Angela Smith RV on a pullet. One buff cockerel was shown into BV by Paul & Angela Smith. Two self blues were shown by Paul & Angela with their cockerel placing BV and pullet RV. Six whites were shown with Paul & Angela winning BV on a cockerel. Sherry Klaus won RV on a pullet purchased from Paul & Angela. One splash cockerel was shown by Clif Redden. Clif’s splash cockerel won best AOV over the self blue cockerel. The splash variety will soon start the long process of becoming a recognized variety of Ameraucanas. The ABC second pre-qualifying meet for the self blue is scheduled for the Dixie Classic in Knoxville, TN on Dec. 2 & 3, 2017. I have several Texas self blue breeders prepared for a second and last chance to meet the 4-4-4-4 second pre-qualifying meet before the deadline in January 2018. We should be able to meet the requirements at the Knoxville show. However, if the weather and roads get bad, it could cause a failed attempt to have the required numbers. The Bluebonnet Classic at College Station, TX. Entry deadline is after the Knoxville, TN. Show, so it provides a second chance to have a 4-4-4-4 pre-qualifying meet. We had our first pre-qualifying meet in Shawnee, OK on Dec. 10, 2016. Shawnee’s entries are closed, so it is not available to enter the required numbers. The four exhibitors that meet the pre-qualifying meet were all from Texas. Texas has only closed poultry shows, not allowing out of state birds due to Texas Animal Health regulations. Unfortunately this will not allow anyone out of Texas to help with the pre-qualifying meet. We are planning on taking 7 head of self blues to Knoxville to help with the pre-qualifying meet.

Blacks were the largest class with 17 shown. Jan Geis of M & J Farm won BV, BB, Champion large fowl and Champion Ameraucana on a cockerel. Jan also won RV, RB and Res. Ameraucana on a cockerel.

The SC district managed to have a good show even though it had to compete with a homecoming football game and another show in the district on the same weekend. Just for the record, hotel rooms which had not been pre-booked, were available in Fayetteville for the weekend. Most ABC members who showed went to the Golden Corral for dinner. We did not hold a formal district meeting to select a show for our 2018 district meet. I had planned for a meeting to select a back-up show in the event Larry Clionski chose the APA national meet in Shawnee, OK. on November 17 & 18, 2018 to be our ABC national. Having received word that our national ABC meet will be in Greenville, Ohio at the Dayton show, our South Central district meet will be at the APA national meet in Shawnee, OK. This should be our first qualifying meet for the large fowl self blue, as the qualifying meets are assigned to an APA national or semi-annual meet!

Amanda Stallman of California judged the ABC club meet at Fayetteville, Arkansas on Nov. 4 & 5, 2017. The open show is judged twice at the HOTO show. The Juniors are busy with showmanship so their birds are only shown once.

Paul & Angela Smith won BV on a blue cockerel and Clif Redden RV on a blue pullet. Ann Horsman won BV on a blue wheaten cock and Paul & Angela RV on a blue wheaten pullet. The wheaten class remained the same with Ann Horsman winning BV on a hen and Paul & Angela RV on a pullet. The buff and self blues also remained the same. Surprisingly both Amanda and Paul Monteith chose the self blue cockerel over the self blue pullet. Sherry Klaus won BV and RV on white pullets. Clif Redden won Best AOV with his splash cockerel. Jan Geis’s black cockerel won BV, BB and Res. large fowl. This was the same cockerel that won reserve breed under Paul Monteith’s judgement. The RV black and RB was a pullet shown by Brad Stonebarger of Triple S Farm. Amanda selected the same brown red cockerel for BV and BB in the bantams but chose a pullet for RV and RB.

The double judged shows are fun to see the difference in judge’s opinions and their interpretation of the APA Standard of Perfection (SOP). The past few years we have been seeing judges use Ameraucanas that are much larger framed (oversized), level backed rather than taller at the shoulders, loose feathered to the point that they are fluffy. We as Ameraucana breeders must get back to the SOP or we will have our Ameraucana breed in the same situation as the Berkshire hogs are now, where they have either the old time Berks or the new modern Berks with lots of white due to crossing with other breeds. We need to encourage each other to select our breeding birds as close as possible to the SOP! I had two ABC members ask what can be done to get the varieties other than black to win? My response was I don’t know. After a few days of thinking-the answer came. We as Ameraucana breeders must go back to the SOP and start breeding and showing the correct body type. Then start educating the judges, and everyone involved with Ameraucanas.

Most of the blacks at Fayetteville, were extremely different from the other varieties shown. After the judging of the second show was completed, while recording the results the clerk and judge Amanda Stallman came to me and ask if the ABC needed any other selections-(meaning Champion Ameraucana), which we didn’t since the second show judged by Paul Monteith was our SC district meet. The Champion Ameraucana only needs to be selected from a district and national meet. As we were walking by the black pullets-Amanda said “They are like Orphingtons with muffs and beards!” Ouch-I missed an open door to start the Ameraucana breed back on the right road, according to the SOP.

I thought the selection of BB that didn’t align with the SOP would correct itself in due time. A few years ago Max and I thoroughly discussed type. Max being relative new to the Ameraucana breed at that time, ask a judge when are you going to stop selecting the big fluffy ones for champion? Max told me that the judges reply was when the breeders stop bringing them.

Photos of both shows will be posted ASAP.
Title: Re: South-Central District and Fayetteville, Arkansas club meet Nov. 4 & 5, 2017
Post by: Ernie Haire on November 27, 2017, 02:38:57 PM: Ain't saying a word.

Ernie
Title: Re: South-Central District and Fayetteville, Arkansas club meet Nov. 4 & 5, 2017
Post by: Susan Mouw on November 27, 2017, 06:04:15 PM: Quote from: Paul on November 27, 2017, 11:41:28 AM
The double judged shows are fun to see the difference in judge’s opinions and their interpretation of the APA Standard of Perfection (SOP). The past few years we have been seeing judges use Ameraucanas that are much larger framed (oversized), level backed rather than taller at the shoulders, loose feathered to the point that they are fluffy. We as Ameraucana breeders must get back to the SOP or we will have our Ameraucana breed in the same situation as the Berkshire hogs are now, where they have either the old time Berks or the new modern Berks with lots of white due to crossing with other breeds. We need to encourage each other to select our breeding birds as close as possible to the SOP! I had two ABC members ask what can be done to get the varieties other than black to win? My response was I don’t know. After a few days of thinking-the answer came. We as Ameraucana breeders must go back to the SOP and start breeding and showing the correct body type. Then start educating the judges, and everyone involved with Ameraucanas.

Most of the blacks at Fayetteville, were extremely different from the other varieties shown. After the judging of the second show was completed, while recording the results the clerk and judge Amanda Stallman came to me and ask if the ABC needed any other selections-(meaning Champion Ameraucana), which we didn’t since the second show judged by Paul Monteith was our SC district meet. The Champion Ameraucana only needs to be selected from a district and national meet. As we were walking by the black pullets-Amanda said “They are like Orphingtons with muffs and beards!” Ouch-I missed an open door to start the Ameraucana breed back on the right road, according to the SOP.

Amen and Amen!
Title: Re: South-Central District and Fayetteville, Arkansas club meet Nov. 4 & 5, 2017
Post by: Don on November 28, 2017, 12:35:20 AM: Congratulations to all of the winners. Sounds like a great show. Good to hear that bantams and especially Brown Red being exhibited in numbers too. (Thanks again Paul/Angela for the Great report )

Quote
I had two ABC members ask what can be done to get the varieties other than black to win? My response was I don’t know.

The Blacks have been improved by many breeders working together many years. It's understandable that Many folks want to win now and win/attain points rather than put in the effort toward a future goal. It will take a large group of breeders to concentrate on some of the other colors so that they are more competitive and have them show consistently. Its easier to work with solid color birds. Much more difficult to balance parti-colors and at the same time keeping the type, egg color...... It takes breeders interested in the process and the accomplishment of slow and steady improvement. Once other colors begin to win shows, other folks will notice and join in the effort to improve all of the accepted colors.
Title: Re: South-Central District and Fayetteville, Arkansas club meet Nov. 4 & 5, 2017
Post by: Birdcrazy on November 28, 2017, 08:29:18 AM: Quote from: Paul on November 27, 2017, 11:41:28 AM
! I had two ABC members ask what can be done to get the varieties other than black to win? My response was I don’t know.

Unfortunately this problem exists in other breeds and not just the Ameraucana Breed. Years ago the hot variety in Wyandotte bantams was the silver and gold laced varieties. This gave way to the Partridge variety and over the years changed to the Black or White varieties. These have been the dominant winners over the last decade. I have heard exhibitors complain that the problem lies with the judges. They feel that tying solid color birds eliminates dispute on the coloration factor on other varieties. Example: on Silver Laced is the lacing uniform? Is the lacing bleached out? Is the lacing bold but not excessively dominant? Does the lacing smudge into black at the lower feathering? etc. This is not the problem when tying the solid color varieties and leave the judging open for disputes on feather coloration on the other varieties. This seem to creep into the judging on other breeds at shows. What is the answer? As Paul says "I don't know".
Title: Re: South-Central District and Fayetteville, Arkansas club meet Nov. 4 & 5, 2017
Post by: Susan Mouw on November 28, 2017, 09:45:45 AM: I started with a "pattern" variety - wheaten and blue wheaten. Worked with them for five years and I think I made some progress. But, I realized last year that I didn't have the facilities to keep going forward with 4 accepted varieties and two project varieties - blue, black, splash, wheaten, blue wheaten, and splash wheaten - so I had to make some tough choices. With only five breeding pens, it's tough to maintain genetic diversity on 4 varieties! And, I wanted to be able to help out with the splash variety process coming up, which kinda made the decision for me.

I learned a lot from those wheatens, though, and have not made the same mistakes with my blues and blacks...at least not yet, though I'm sure a few new surprises are still in store.

I'm pretty active on FB and one of the things I see a lot are birds with pretty coloration, but their type is...well, disappointing. I've said "type trumps color" so many times, I think folks may have given me a new name. :) But, until we turn a blind eye to color and look at type first - we will continue to see the solids, and primarily the blacks, taking home the big wins.

I would love to be there when a, say, brown red, takes top honors at a show, in the open class, with some good competition!
Title: Re: South-Central District and Fayetteville, Arkansas club meet Nov. 4 & 5, 2017
Post by: Paul on November 28, 2017, 10:25:23 AM: I don’t see color (variety) as being the error. The large fowl Black Ameraucanas win more shows than the 7 other varieties combine! Nineteen years of showing, we have had one blue wheaten hen, one wheaten cockerel, one wheaten pullet, one blue hen, and one white cockerel to win BB, and too many blacks to count-(never less to remember), win BB. In my opinion the error is type. Unfortunately, most of the blacks that have been winning BB the past few years don’t align with the Standard of Perfection. Most are extremely over sized. When an Ameraucana cockerel requires a double coop-he is too large framed. Most are too low at the point of their shoulders making them level backed rather than having a sloped back. Most are very loose feathered making them a term that I call fluffy. However they have a lot of eye appeal and are very pretty, so they win. I’ve set on the sidelines until now. The straw that broke the camel’s back was what Clif showed me on Facebook while at Fayetteville. Someone posted a couple photos of blue cockerels and requested critiques, so they would know which one to use on their pullets. Someone answered that they didn’t like them because they had slope to their back. Apparently the one responding must have seen too many of the level back incorrect winners. Granted the two blue cockerels had much more slope than what the Standard of Perfection requires. However that is what is going to be needed to get some of the level ones back on track. Most likely the photos showed the two blue cockerels in an excited pose, which will cause them to be more elevated than what they actually are.

Paul Smith
Title: Re: South-Central District and Fayetteville, Arkansas club meet Nov. 4 & 5, 2017
Post by: Ernie Haire on November 28, 2017, 11:06:16 AM: Still ain't saying a word, but it is hard to do.

Ernie
Title: Re: South-Central District and Fayetteville, Arkansas club meet Nov. 4 & 5, 2017
Post by: Susan Mouw on November 28, 2017, 12:42:11 PM: Since we're on the subject of type, I'd like to hear some opinions on this cockerel. The color is grayed out and somewhat tinted to hide the variety. I will say this is one of mine, so it could be : wheaten, blue wheaten, splash wheaten, black, blue, or splash. At the time this pic was taken, this bird was about 8 months old. He weighed just over 5.75# at that time.

(http://sandcastlesfarm.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/type-cockerel1.png)

Here are the things I like about this bird:

1. Slightly elevated at the shoulder, with a smooth transition from neck to back to tail.
2. Correct 45* angle tailset.
3. Nice prominent breast, but not out of balance.
4. Slight arch to neck, though could probably use a bit more length.
5. Wings carried on near-horizontal.

The things where I think he needs work:

1. Comb is correct pea comb, but oversize.
2. Could use fuller muffs and beard.

This is, basically, the model I use for all varieties bred here. Thoughts, Comments?
Title: Re: South-Central District and Fayetteville, Arkansas club meet Nov. 4 & 5, 2017
Post by: Paul on November 28, 2017, 06:51:26 PM: He looks great! I agree with your assessment. From the grayed out photo his wings are not visible to access the carriage or tips. Cockerels raised in hot regions will have larger combs than cockerels raised where it is cooler and doesn't stay hot for long periods of time. A few years ago we only missed a day or two seeing 100 or above for 100 consecutive days.
Title: Re: South-Central District and Fayetteville, Arkansas club meet Nov. 4 & 5, 2017
Post by: Paul on November 28, 2017, 06:52:44 PM: Ernie,

A penny for your thoughts! LOL! I'll pay you when we get to show together-maybe at Shawnee on Dec. 9?
Title: Re: South-Central District and Fayetteville, Arkansas club meet Nov. 4 & 5, 2017
Post by: Ernie Haire on November 28, 2017, 07:05:49 PM: Paul,

You can save your penny, you already know my thoughts. I will see you in Shawnee. We have not shown much this season because I am trying to gear up or should I say gear down for retirement. We are all looking forward to Shawnee.

Ernie
Title: Re: South-Central District and Fayetteville, Arkansas club meet Nov. 4 & 5, 2017
Post by: Paul on November 28, 2017, 08:13:49 PM: Hi Ernie,

Glad we are finally going to get to see you.
Are you going to Haynesville, Louisiana this week end?
Title: Re: South-Central District and Fayetteville, Arkansas club meet Nov. 4 & 5, 2017
Post by: Ernie Haire on November 28, 2017, 08:46:26 PM: Paul,

We will be in Haynesville this weekend. I am looking forward to seeing the people from that area that I haven't seen in a while. There should be some nice Ameraucanas there in both Large Fowl and Bantams. We got several people started last year from that area with both Large Fowl and Bantams. It should be a good show, but you never know until you get there.

I am sure that you all will be traveling to Knoxville. Mom, Mary, and Peggy went up there a few years ago. I stayed at home and worked. They really enjoyed that show. It is one that I hope to be able to go to in the future.

Be Safe,
Ernie
Title: Re: South-Central District and Fayetteville, Arkansas club meet Nov. 4 & 5, 2017
Post by: Ernie Haire on December 06, 2017, 11:24:22 AM: I just sat here and typed a long post about the ways show birds within our breed are changing. The title was going to be "The Breed Standard, Who Reads It". I decided against posting my novel and hit "Delete" instead. It is not worth complaining about. Just keep doing what I am doing. I will just enjoy my Ameraucanas and show them where I want. I will continue to check on who is judging and not enter Large Fowl at the shows where size is going to be more important than "Type".

Just Saying,
Ernie
Title: Re: South-Central District and Fayetteville, Arkansas club meet Nov. 4 & 5, 2017
Post by: Susan Mouw on December 06, 2017, 01:08:38 PM: I wish you would post it, Ernie. I think you'd find quite a few in agreement...
Title: Re: South-Central District and Fayetteville, Arkansas club meet Nov. 4 & 5, 2017
Post by: Susan Mouw on December 06, 2017, 01:22:55 PM: Quote from: Paul on November 28, 2017, 06:51:26 PM
He looks great! I agree with your assessment. From the grayed out photo his wings are not visible to access the carriage or tips. Cockerels raised in hot regions will have larger combs than cockerels raised where it is cooler and doesn't stay hot for long periods of time. A few years ago we only missed a day or two seeing 100 or above for 100 consecutive days.

This is the full picture of the bird posted. But you saw him this past weekend at Dixie Classic, so can make your assessments from the real thing. ;)

(http://sandcastlesfarm.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/61Y-P66721-Black-K-11-14-17-e1512584440706.jpg)
Title: Re: South-Central District and Fayetteville, Arkansas club meet Nov. 4 & 5, 2017
Post by: Peggy Taylor on December 06, 2017, 03:49:09 PM: Well, I've been the same route as Ernie and came to the same conclusion. Doesn't do any good to go round and round the same tree. We can write that "novel" Ernie referred to but everything boils down to the fact that if judges do not adhere to every part of the standard as much as possible with their judging then its pretty meaningless anyway.

My primary focus is on the Bantams. I enjoy them. My program with them has been working pretty well. So, I think I will just stay on the same track. However, there are some of the same issues beginning to show up with the Bantams as with the large fowl. I will be watching judges closely in the Bantam division and make my show decisions accordingly.

I won't be able to make it to Shawnee this week end but wish everyone good luck and sake travels.

Peggy
Title: Re: South-Central District and Fayetteville, Arkansas club meet Nov. 4 & 5, 2017
Post by: Susan Mouw on December 06, 2017, 05:39:56 PM: I'm just going to throw this out there...

I bred/raised/showed dogs in the AKC venue since the early 70's. The breeds I mainly worked with were Golden Retrievers, Smooth Fox Terriers, and Doberman Pinschers; although I ventured into a few other breeds from time to time to see if I liked them. In showing dogs in conformation (where they were judged for their resemblance to the Standard for their breed), you have two ways of showing - owner handled, where the registered owner of the dog takes it in the ring, or hiring a professional handler. I've done both, but I learned, by about the mid 80's, to take a Dobe into the ring as an owner-handler was to admit defeat walking in the ring. Why? Because the handlers had taken over the breed. I may have been a fairly good handler of my dogs, but there is no way I could compete with someone that spent every weekend at a show all year, with 30+ dogs in their show van.

When I first started showing Goldens, they were a moderate coated breed. By the time I got out of showing dogs, many of the top winning Goldens would not be able to do any field work without severe damage to their coat.

Why am I talking about this? Well, because I'm seeing a trend here that disturbs me. While we don't have handler vs owner-handled at chicken shows, we do have the novice breeder versus the person that buys birds from all over, just to take them to shows. And while we don't have the working characteristics of our breed, we do, and are, seeing some changes in type in the winning birds that do not match what the original standard calls for.

At that time, I was kinda like Ernie - just keep doing what I was doing and move forward. And, I still won at some shows. But the fact is, if I could resurrect a top winning Golden of 1971, that dog would not do well in the ring today. Same with Labrador Retrievers and we won't even talk about German Shepherds.

I don't want to see history repeat itself in the world of exhibition poultry and, particularly, with Ameraucanas. If we don't stand up and decry these birds that are being shown and are not within Standard (and I don't just mean a couple of minor points - none of our birds are perfect), then we will be facing the same sort of challenges in the chicken "ring" as I faced years ago in the AKC breed ring.

The more people see that top winning, but incorrect, bird - the more people, including judges, will begin to believe that it is the correct version and the rest of the birds are not. More people will breed for those incorrect characteristics (size, short back, over wide/long tails..whatever it may be) and, soon, those of us breeding to the standard will not recognize the birds being shown...and winning.
Title: Re: South-Central District and Fayetteville, Arkansas club meet Nov. 4 & 5, 2017
Post by: Peggy Taylor on December 08, 2017, 12:29:36 PM: Very very well said Susan. I've seen the same issue in may avenues of livestock.

Peggy