Ameraucana Breeders Club
The Official Forum of the Ameraucana Breeders Club => Ameraucana Marketplace => Topic started by: Guest on August 02, 2007, 02:24:39 PM
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I\'ve seen(elsewhere) so much discussion about \"proper\" lacing on blues requiring either the extended black e-loci or ER/Pg/Ml; yet I\'ve noticed this \"talk\" doesn\'t seem to come from those breeding blues. I\'ve tried to tract down Andalusian Blue breeders with no luck. So, has anyone attempted to incorporate ER/Pg/Ml into their blue breeding and have you seen significant improvement in lacing, or have you found extended black by itself (as some claim) to provide real lacing?
Does anyone have a blue like this: (from feathersite, ha!)
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Rose,
I believe I have incorporated the Pg gene into my bantam blue stock via cross with a white legged Sumatra pullet a couple years back. I have noticed a marked improvement in the lacing, but now am working on more uniform proper breed type due to the outcross. Nothing is easy it seems.
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Are your bantams on E or ER?
Never having seen a bird with the above lacing, I just have no reference for it. Do you think your birds are approaching lacing like the above or is that bird just one of a zillion?
I have some blue pullets from a breeder and they had E down. They are quite lovely, very typey but practically no lacing which suprised me as, according to popular genetics blue on Extended Black does not need any modifiers to have \"proper\"lacing. I\'ve been working towards all extended black in my blue flock, but it seems as if it will also need modifiers.
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According to some sources, most of what we call lacing is induced from hormones, not genetics. To get the good lacing I am convinced we need to add the Pg (pattern gene) as well.
If you don\'t have it, you have to find it somewhere and introduce it to your stock. I have some nicely laced birds this year, but I\'m sure most are probably hetero for the pattern gene. Can\'t wait until next year when I should be able to get about 25 percent that carry two copies of Pg. It will be interesting to note the difference in these, because although Pg is dominant (I saw improvement on the very first outcross) I\'m pretty sure two copies will result in even better lacing. Time will tell - and like I said, you can\'t forget everything else just to improve coloring.
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Here is a photo of a bantam blue pullet that I took this evening. The darker blues show better lacing. I\'ve been using very dark blue males over black females for a few year now and some males look black when viewed from the top. The pullet may also have some of the Sumatra blood from Mike\'s line. I introduced it to mine, but didn\'t keep records. I just sell the ones that don\'t look good at swap meets as culls.
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John, this bird has almost a charcoal cast the way it shows on my screen. The darker the bird, the easier to produce hormonal lacing. I doubt she carries Pg, but I could be wrong. Most breeders of blue would prefer a much lighter ground color to provide more contrast with the dark lacing.
Do you remember when we helped Arne Schmidt pick some blues from Wayne Meredith\'s flock? Arne picked out the lightest blues he could find - unfortunately they were poorly laced, and that is what he said he would work on.
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Most breeders of blue would prefer a much lighter ground color to provide more contrast with the dark lacing.
Me too, but haven\'t had or seen one in the 25 + years that I\'ve bred and shown them.
I\'ve had plenty of washed-out blues and am now getting some of these dark blues that show some contrast with lacing. Blue has never been a favorite variety of mine and one of reasons is that I just don\'t like varieties that don\'t breed true. I plan to replace them with lavenders, once they are better developed, in my breeding pens.
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John, the pullet has what many call \"edging\"
From what you are saying, I think I am doubting that blue on E will produce lacing as you would have seen it!
Can\'t wait \'till next year.
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I did some experimentation with extended black, blue and lacing. You have to have melanotic and Pg to get a good lace on a blue and extended black bird. My results did not support my hypothesis but did support the work by Campo.
I had to stop the work because I did not have the room to continue.
Tim
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according to popular genetics blue on Extended Black does not need any modifiers to have \"proper\"lacing. I\'ve been working towards all extended black in my blue flock, but it seems as if it will also need modifiers.
Both Jeffrey and the Sellers website suggest that Andalusian blue is based on \"E\" and that is what we have been breeding from, although as mentioned there may be some E^R here and there in LF Ameraucana blacks/blues.
Sellers also says Pg, Ml and Co are needed. I don\'t know that Co is present in any of my Ameraucanas, but did show up in a silver male over a silver/smoky(?) female. The smoky must have carried it, but have gotten rid of them.
It is interesting that Sellers in referring to Co says \"Has no effect on extended black, E.\" How can it be needed if it has no effect?
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I\'ve read that Co is needed for proper lacing on other loci but I\'ve looked for an example of Blue with no luck so it seems as if it helps with restriction when not a black based feather. So indeed, do we really need it?
I\'m adding Delawares (Co/Co) to my yellow leg test breeding pen this fall so I guess I\'ll plan on saving a few. If I\'m lucky and unfortunately we Konolds are not, I\'ll get at least a E/eWh Co/co S/S the first round. Maybe we can talk Mike into sharing one of his Pg carriers.
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I don\'t know if he still has it, but Mike did have a LF silver show the Columbian pattern. It is already an Ameraucana, so would make a good cross to try.
I would have kept the one I sold a few weeks ago and tried the cross if I\'d known it might help.
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I still have the Columbian colored cockerel (L.F.), but he is slated for a swap meet Sept. 15th unless someone wants me to save him. I believe Michael Muenks has spoken for all my extra blue bantams, so you will need to negotiate with him on those. I do have some nicely colored blues this year, both sexes, but some have the smaller muffs & beards - all are bantams of course.
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Mike, what is your opinion on adding Co to the mix? Any reason you are not adding it to your Pg project?
I certainly am interested in the Co cockerel ... how did you get the columbian? After posting yesterday I remembered the Delaware is supposed to have barring as well which would decrease my chance of getting what I wanted.
Oh Michael ... ;)
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Actually I never knew Co was needed. And I still don\'t.
But who knows, maybe it came in along with the Pg gene at the same time? The columbian colored cockerel came out of some of John\'s eggs that were supposed to be large fowl silvers, but he did warn me there could be some crosses in the mix. So I have no idea.
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From my earlier post:
I don\'t know that Co is present in any of my Ameraucanas, but did show up in a silver male over a silver/smoky(?) female. The smoky must have carried it, but have gotten rid of them.
Check out the \"Chicken Plumage Patterns\" table on the Seller\'s site:
http://marsa_sellers.tripod.com/geneticspages/page2.html#t12
The way I read it they say \"Single Lace (as in Andalusian)\" is based on E, Pg, Ml & Co.
I hadn\'t read that before, but if I did I would have kept my silver cockerel, with Co, and put him over black and splash hens in the spring. I would then cross the chicks the next year to see what comes out in the wash.
???
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The way I read it they say \"Single Lace (as in Andalusian)\" is based on E, Pg, Ml & Co.
I have read this before and it doesn\'t make sense to me. This is the same nomenclature that they use for a golden laced or silver laced bird. I think the CO gene is what gives the gold or white background color to a laced bird. If you have a blue bird with E, Pg, Ml, Co you should get blue laced red not a better laced blue. I believe you need to leave the Co out of this recipe for a solid blue bird.
Curtis
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So,
Has anyone just tried to cross breed their blue ameraucanas with an andalusian to see what they get? I couldn\'t tell from the research data what types of chickens they crossed; it didn\'t appear to me to be an andalusian. Am I wrong? I need layman terms to understand this genetic coloring and pattern stuff.
I think I may purchase an andalusian pullet/hen and try my own experiment as I need more layers anyway.
Jean
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Has anyone just tried to cross breed their blue ameraucanas with an andalusian to see what they get?
Personnally, I think this would be the best approach.
Curtis
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I do not see many birds except what I see in forums and I sure have not seen any with \"proper\"lacing, Andalusians included ... have you?
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Rose,
I did cross in a well laced, white shanked blue bantam Sumatra a couple of years back. I am getting some well laced blue Ameraucana bantams now. Should have enough to share some by this time next year. As far as I know the only additional gene introduced via the Sumatra cross was Pg (pattern gene).
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I am attempting to post a link of what I believe to be British blue orpingtons. Is this the type of lacing that needs to be achieved within the blue variety of ameraucana?
http://www.orpington.nl/nieuwe_fotoalbumbestanden/PRISCILLA/priscilla%20Middleton.html
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Johnny,
At first I thought you were referring to the self blue or lavender birds at the top. Then when I scrolled down through the other pictures I found the Orps you were talking about. Yes, and the nice broad feathers really make the lacing stand out. Nice birds.
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this is a link to David Plant\'s findings on breeding blue laced poultry
http://www.americansilkiebantamclub.org/breeding_blue_variety.htm
look about half way down the page starting at \"The Laced Gene\"
Cindy
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To the best of my knowledge there is no \"laced\" gene as described in the article. The geneticists I have read believe the lacing is caused by Pg, the pattern gene, in combination with other genetic factors. Pg is the same gene responsible for the penciling of partridge and silver penciled and the type of lacing found in Wyandottes. If someone has proof that a lacing gene actually exists I would sure be interested in reading the evidence.
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\"
The Laced Gene\"
Part of the problem is that there has been a lot of progress in poultry genetics in the past decade or so. Many books on genetics from just 30 years ago contain misinformation compared to what is now known. Some of those outdated references are still being quoted.
In another 10 years many of our questions today may be answered. ;)
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The only reason you would want columbian in a bird would be to produce a single lace on an E locus other than extended black. Columbian has no effect on extended black. The columbian gene restricts black to the outer edge of the feather. To get the black on the end of the feather( to form a lace) you have to have melanotic to add enough black to the feather and the Pg gene to arrange the black into a pattern. The blue gene does not effect the black ( due to melanotic) on the end of the feather but does dilute the black (due to extended black) on the rest of the feather.
The lacing I have seen in my blue birds is actually not a lace but just edging. In hens I believe that the edging is due to the extended black gene and the presence of female hormones. I believe birds that would show the best lacing (edging) would be birchen. I have produced birchen females with true gold lacing on the breast. Thats right a gold lace on a black feather.
I have seen very few blue birds with a true lace. I have carried out some experimentation with blue and have come to the conclusion that if you want true lacing you will have to add certain secondary pattern genes and not use extended black to get a true lace.
If anybody wants to know more email me at tadkerson@netzero.com
Tim
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Thanks for the info Tim. Gold lacing on black is exactly what the brown red pattern is, or are you talking about another laced pattern altogether? Black golds also are gold laced on black, only much moreso than brown reds and with extensive shafting added in to the mix. They are birchen based and sex linked gold.
Did you look at the pics of the blue bantams that Paul & Jean took at the Great Falls show? Do you consider that coloring to be edging or lacing? I have raised a lot of blues, but these appear to me to go beyond edging. I\'m getting it in the males also, on the breast and wings. Most of the time the tops (saddles, hackles & back) are too dark in the males to see much for lacing. On the lighter blue ones you can see it some in the hackles.
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The gold lacing is really wide so I imagine it would be like a black gold. I looked at the blue bantams and I would say they have edging. The pictures are so small it is difficult to make a good evaluation. When I compare the lacing with that in barnevelders and cornish, it does not seem wide enough to qualify as lacing.
Here is a picture of one of the birds I produced. She has edging. She was a part of my experimental crossing. The male in the picture also has edging. Lacing would be much thicker. The last picture is of the bird that has the gold lacing on the breast. I could not get a strait shot she was being uncooperative. I am almost positive she is birchen because she has yellow legs. If she were extended black she would have black legs. Her down color looked extended black, she did not have any red on her head . But she lacked the yellow belly- she was solid black and that would indicate birchen.
After I get a larger place I am going to work on the lacing in Ameraucana. I want to produce a blue bird that has lacing like the outer lace on barnevelders or sebrights. The E locus and pattern genes one breeds into the birds are the key to getting a good lace.
Tim
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That last bird with the gold lacing looks very much like somewhere between brown red and black gold. So I would concur she is birchen based. I think the new owner of the blue bantams, Michael Muenks, would concur the pictures don\'t really show the true extent of lacing in the bantam pullets. I would say they have one copy of Pg, and two would probably bring out the lacing even better. I have raised a lot of birds with the edging you refer to, and these are definitely different. Thanks for your comments, and keep up the good work.