Ameraucana Breeders Club
The Official Forum of the Ameraucana Breeders Club => Ameraucana Marketplace => Topic started by: verycherry on May 27, 2009, 03:43:40 PM
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The female red pyle should have a salmon breast, but the male OEG has a white breast, but is this only when the adult plumage comes in? and is this any different in the Ameraucana?
Where a male BBR would develop a black breast with maturity, the dominant white would make the breast white on a Red Pyle.......right? I know I\'ve seen photos of males without a solid white breast. Just immature plummage or a difference in the breeds?
Be back with some pictures of a young chick in a second. I can\'t even recall his hatch date at the moment, but around 4 weeks old.
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(http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/1627/img70411.th.jpg) (http://img505.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img70411.jpg)
(http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/6109/img70191.th.jpg) (http://img505.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img70191.jpg)
You should be able to click to enlarge the photos.
I\'ll can get a close up too.
I hope he\'s a male. I have females.
Oh, and he did have a beard and muffs at hatch.
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(http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/8507/img70052.jpg)
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I never raised pyle, and don\'t intend to. But based on the chick\'s current color on the breast one would guess it is a pullet. I suppose color could change when/if male hormones kick in.
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based on the chick\'s current color on the breast one would guess it is a pullet. I suppose color could change when/if male hormones kick in
I agree that the breast color would make you think female, but if I\'m remembering correctly, my Wheaten male didn\'t get his black breast until his male hormones kicked in. I\'m hoping this is just what the male juvenile plumage looks like. The obvious females from this hatching are already feathered out and the combs are a bit smaller.
Maybe I should try and locate a OEG forum and lurk around to find out more about this color. I don\'t know of that many other breeds that have this color, except in the developmental stages.
Sorry I broke the board with that link to the chicken calculator. I\'ll just delete it.
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I\'m thinking my male Wheaten cockerel started betting black in his breast between 5-6 weeks, but it may have been a little earlier.
Best wishes as you watch your chick\'s color develop. He has a dear little face :p
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Thank you. I just hatched 3 more chicks today out of this breeding, and two have yellow down, and the other has a wild type pattern, so hopefully I\'ll have a keeper in this batch too.
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I know most of you aren\'t interested in the Red Pyle color in Ameraucana, but in case anyone here is, surely there\'s somebody, lol, I wanted to update this thread.
The chick pictured above is feathering in nicely, and is looking more like he should. I\'m hopeful. I think his leg color and beak color look good. Looking more male too.
Here are the 3 chicks I just hatched this weekend. I took the pictures shortly after hatch. They\'re about 4 days old now.
This one looks very promising, and looks just like the older chick above looked at hatch. So far no bluish tone to the legs yet, but time will tell.
(http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/7798/img71021.jpg)
This one looks reeeally light, so I\'m wondering if I might have a dominant white bird here. I HOPE it feathers in Red Pyle, but I should still be able to use it if it\'s DW. Leg color has a slight blue cast already so that\'s good. Really pretty chick anyway!
(http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/58/img71041.jpg)
This one, hmmm... Definately NOT Red Pyle. Is it BBR? ...or just another chipmunk striped EE. It could be that I didn\'t wait long enough before I put the male with her mama, so it\'s even possible that this one might have the wrong daddy! I know I waited at least two weeks. I\'ll hang on to her and see how she turns out.
(http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/9563/img71032.jpg)
I just put the rooster with the girls again yesterday and will again several more times over the next few days, so I\'ll have more eggs to try again soon. I\'ll definately hatch more than 3 this time. I also put my BBR EE hen in the pen this time. Wish me luck!
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Bill Wulff, editor of the Poultry Press, raises the red pyle color in L.F. Moderns and O.E. Bantams. Why don\'t you send him an e-mail with pictures for advice? I can\'t help, and don\'t see anyone else jumping in with advice either.
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Red in the breast on a Pyle male is a common defect 80% of males carry it. The other big defect in them is black ticking on the white areas. They are definately not a color variety that you only have to raise a few of to get well colored birds, and they must be double mated to produce quality birds in both sexes. BB Reds will come out of them frm time to time they are useful in holding the color on the males as they tend to wash out to a yellow color rather than the correct orange. Hope this helped, Chris
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Red in the breast on a Pyle male is a common defect 80% of males carry it. The other big defect in them is black ticking on the white areas. They are definately not a color variety that you only have to raise a few of to get well colored birds, and they must be double mated to produce quality birds in both sexes.
Thank you! That helps a great deal. I\'ve also received two letters from members by email explaining a few things. Thank you all!
This was a test hatch. I\'m hatching more this weekend, 11 eggs, and just set 15 more eggs last night, as well as a 4 (or 5) eggs from my BBR female.
After this male above, or another male, matures I\'ll be able to do some double matings. I\'m looking forward to that.
BB Reds will come out of them from time to time they are useful in holding the color on the males as they tend to wash out to a yellow color rather than the correct orange.
Ok, I understand. It\'s the same way with the Golden Neck d\'Uccles. You can take them back to the Mille Fleurs to deepen the background color back to where it should be. It\'s the dominant white that washes it out over time, so I\'m assuming it\'s the dominant white that washes the orange out in this case too. THANK YOU!
I do have a question about a RP hen I have if you\'re still around. She has a blue tinge to the white feathering. I think I read that this could be caused from the bird having the BLUE gene, which affects the dominant white, and cause some of the color to bleed though....not sure if I\'m using the correct lingo. In other words, the blue isn\'t completely blocked by the DW as the black would be. If I have this right, then am I correct in assuming that she\'ll only pass this blue gene to 50% of her offspring, like a Blue/Black/Splash bird.
........or should I cull her? She can definately go into the EE pen if this will be a big problem in the long run.
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verycherry, I don\'t have any answers about the BLUE gene and I hope someone with more genetic experience dives in here with answers for you.
I just wanted to share with you that you\'re not working alone with the Red Pyle project. I\'m involved with a developmental bantam project for producing Red Pyle Ameraucana/Black Breasted Red Ameraucana. I\'m hoping that next season (2010) will produce birds with better results.
This F2 project hen was produced from parent birds that were (White Ameraucana X Red Pyle Old English) X (Wheaten Ameraucana X Red Pyle Old English). She is bearded, muffed, and lays blue eggs. She has white legs and Red Pyle coloring.
(http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r225/fdippy/2009JohnnysChickens022-1.jpg)
I crossed the above mix\'d Red Pyle/Ameraucana project hen with a pure LF Silver Ameraucana rooster. The Silver Ameraucana rooster is the father of the chicks in the photo.
(http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r225/fdippy/SilverAmeruacana12-1-1.jpg)
I\'ve also made crosses using a mix\'d Red Pyle/Ameraucana project rooster X pure Silver Ameraucana bantam hens. I have about 50 project chicks hatched this season 09. As the above posts refrence, I am finding that some of the chicks are showing potential to feather in as BBRed also.
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Thank you for posting the photos Johnny. Your hen is beautiful. Do her chicks have pea combs? Since I\'m using only birds with pea combs, I was wondering how many generations it would take to get pea combs and slate legs if I decide to add some crosses like yours to my project.
That Silver cock is gorgeous by the way! If I only had more room, I\'d love to have some Silver birds too, but I\'m already needing to build another grow out pen for some Black/Lavender split chicks. I have 3 acres, but I really didn\'t plan to fill the whole plot with pens, lol!
I\'d love to see more photos of your chicks as they mature.
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I\'ve never tried to use anything that carried a blue gene in a white breeding I couldn\'t begin to tell you how it will carry on. Use toe punches and keep good records. Document every thing you do so you\'ll know where you went wrong or did something right. Single matings might be useful in the project since more than one female in a pen may throw something entirly different from another and you wouldn\'t know where it came from. Chris
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The female is identical to the other two females in every way, except that she has this faint blue cast in the white. I thought I\'d try her and see what she produces. If I\'m correct and she passes the blue to only 50% of her chicks, then the 50% of the chicks without the blue shouldn\'t carry it, and I should be safe to use those in my project. Either way, she\'s now in the EE pen. If I hatch more eggs later in the year, I\'ll only take them from the other two hens, my BBR and dominant white birds.
I\'ve been marking as many eggs as I can with the hens names, if I catch one in the nest box. One of them lays a pretty bluish-teal colored egg with a more matte finish, so those are easy to spot. Some of the others are too close to call. Now if I could just manage to be there when the labeled eggs hatch, I\'d know who throws what!
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Seperate the eggs in mesh bags and toe punch the chicks from each bag differently. Chris
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Neat idea. I\'ll have to try that next time.
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Howdy,
The male\'s chick down should be white and the next set of juvenile feathers should also be white. Red pyle males should not show any red, (in the pyle region and wing bay) until they are beginning to molt into their late juvenile or adult plumage. The amount of red will increase as the birds get older. The reason males show red in areas other than the pyle zone is because they have modifiers that are causing red to appear in the wrong areas. Genes like columbian, dark brown and mahogany should not be found in a red pyle male or female.
You have to think of a red pyle male as a black breasted red with the black replaced with white. The red leaks through the white in the pyle zone. The dominant white gene does a good job of stopping the black pigment from being produced but if red pigment is produced , the red leaks through the white. Black breasted red should only produce red in the pyle zone and wing bay therefore you get a red pyle showing through the dominant white.
Red pyles should be homozygous dominant white (two dominant white), wild type at the E locus and be gold at the silver locus. Chicks should not have any black patches in their down. The chick in the picture is not pure for wild type. The head markings are broken and the stripes on the back are not correct. If the female is producing chicks that are not white then she only carries one dominant white gene.
If you are not getting red pyle males it is because they have genes that are modifying the black to a red. If you are getting all white males it is because they carry silver and not two gold genes.
Female red pyles have a red breast because of the wild type gene. Wild type females have a salmon colored breast. Females should be homozygous dominant white and have heavy stippling and heavy black in the hackle under the white. Red pyle females should only show red in the breast. Females as chicks should not show any red in their down. If they have red on their head, face and neck they will have a red/buff head and neck as an adult.
The dominant white gene is a quirky gene and does some strange things.
I think if people would breed for the proper wild type bird then breed in the dominant white they would have better birds.
Under the white, you want a female that is black but with a salmon breast. In males it is different, the genes that would make a female black would remove the red from the pyle zone of the male. That is why you have to use two pens to breed the birds. Males should be standard black breasted red under the white while the females should be more like a brassy back under the white. Actually it would be best to start with a blue breasted red male and a blue brassy back for the female. The blue would help with any black ticking that would show through the white.
It does not make any difference if the males are purebred at the E locus for wild type. They can be any combination of E loci other than extended black or birchen. Extended black would remove most of the red in the pyle zone and birchen would not produce a red wing bay. Females have to be pure for wild type to get the proper breast color.
Tim
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See http://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=210106&p=2 for how I keep my eggs separated and in the hatching tray.
I just had a friend from church build me two of these dividers and an extra mesh wire lid for one of the Sportsman\'s trays. So now I have two hatching trays. When I have a really big hatching coming off, I\'ll just stop the tray turner, slap in the divider, slap the lid on and Voila! I\'ve got two hatching trays.
I have my birds separated by breeding pens. I mark each egg with the corresponding pen # as it\'s collected. Then each chick is toe-punched as I take them out of the hatching tray.
Btw, best wishes with your Red Pyle project. I like the color and may one day wish to join in. Right now I have my hands full just trying to get some decent looking Wheatens and Blue Wheatens.
Oh, maybe \"decent\" isn\'t the right word. But you know what I mean.
God Bless,
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Hi Rooster,
Sorry I didn\'t reply sooner, but my monitor went out and I just now got back online.
Since my last hatchings, I\'ve been concentrating on breeding more black breasted red chicks. The one in the photo is definately not one, I agree. I do have one nice female chick now and have about 6 eggs in the bator from my adult BBR female.
The male chick shown above did not turn out very well, too much red. Thanks for explaining things to me in detail....much better information than I\'d found anywhere else.
I have only ONE chick that I have hatched that I really like so far, a female. Time will tell, but she has a very nice clean white body so far. All the others have had the red coming through, especially in the wings. I\'m sure part of that is due to not having the proper colored rooster, but he\'s all I\'ve got.
I want to get more of the proper BBR chicks before I do anything else, so hopefully this next hatch will be a good one and I\'ll get both males and females.
Oh, and it\'s not that I\'m not getting red pyle males because they\'re turning out other colors, it\'s just that except for that one male chick, I\'m not getting any males at all (out of the red pyle project birds)! Weird huh?
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Tailfeathers, that\'s a pretty nifty gadget! Glad it\'s working well for you.
I hope you do join in on the red pyles, after you perfect those Wheatens of course. I\'m pretty tired of hatching chicks actually and am about done this year. I need to get some other things done, and chicken chores are taking up a lot of my time!
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Besides the 6 eggs I have in one of my incubators, I forgot that I also had put 4 eggs from my BBR hen in with a batch of eggs in another incubator, due to hatch Monday night or Tuesday, and they included several eggs from the Red Pyle project birds.
The hatch is complete, and from the 4 eggs, I got two wild type chicks, one looks BBR and the other one is close but slightly different pattern. I also got one chick that picked up the dominant white and looks like a Red Pyle, so I\'ll be watching that one with anticipation. The one egg that didn\'t hatch had a dead chick in it, also with the dominant white gene....sure wish it had hatched. My BBR hen does have the correct BBR coloration, including the breast. She\'s colored exactly like my Brown Leghorn hen.
In the other RP project eggs, I got 6 nice chicks, all solid colored, not one wild type. One looks white (very pale yellow down), and I do have a white hen in that pen so that chick is probably hers. The rest have the coloration of Red Pyle chicks, so we\'ll see.
Rooster, I can definately see what you\'re saying about the Brassy Back hen. You wouldn\'t happen to have an extra Brassy Back Ameraucana just laying around would you? Lol! Wouldn\'t that be nice?
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Tailfeather,
You could use a splash ameraucana to get the color you want. The splash bird will contain the needed genes to add blue to a wild type color. The blue wild type female breast will be red. All you have to do is add the dominant white to the mix. This will only work for the female side. You can not produce a male from the blue wild type female.
The male side should be a dominant white wild type male ( splash breasted red would be best) crossed with a wild type female. This cross will produce dominant white blue breasted red males. That combination will work the best.
From what breed did you incorporate the dominant white?
Tim
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Hi Rooster,
I believe you meant to address me. I got the dominant white gene from a few hatchery Ameraucanas last year. At least they already have the proper combs and such, and they lay blue-green eggs. I got my BBR Ameraucana (EE) hen sometime ago, so it just made sense to breed them together. All the chicks have had the right combs, muffs, etc, but a few of them have had a slight green tinge to the leg color. I\'m sure there are other evil genes lerking!
I\'ll have to get some chick pics soon. The female chick I like best looks to have nice slate leg color so far. Sure wish she\'d turn out to be male, but she\'s several weeks old and the comb is very small.
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Rooster, and anyone else interested,
Here is a photo of one of my chicks....so far it seems to be a female. Her body does show some color, but not bad. Most of the other chicks actually have a bit more color than this one unfortunately.
(http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/6208/img72412.jpg)
This chick is typical of the BBR chicks I\'ve gotten. This one does have a slight greenish tinge to the legs, but I really like her head and expression so I\'m going to keep her.. The best BBR I\'ve gotten to date is less than 2 weeks old. I\'ll get a photo soon.
(http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/97/img72671.jpg)
Both of these are several weeks old, but I don\'t have my records right in front of me now.
I welcome any comments, good or bad. This is a work in progress.