Ameraucana Breeders Club
The Official Forum of the Ameraucana Breeders Club => Ameraucana Marketplace => Topic started by: Birch Run Farm on September 10, 2009, 08:00:45 AM
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An F1 youngster from my birds. He is the result of my blue cock over a cuckoo marans hen.
(http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p223/aspenhilladventures/2009%20Chicks/IMG_2665.jpg)
Comments?
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This topic has been discussed at length here. Use the search function on the toolbar above.
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The main problem with barred Ameraucanas is leg color.
Ameraucanas are supposed to have slate or dark colored legs.
The barred gene inhibits the dark leg color. We probably could get dark legged barred birds if someone was willing to take the time to hatch a lot of birds and select hard for dark legs. I saw a dark legged barred silkie once so I know it can be done. Maybe we should start with one of the dark skinned strains of easter eggers that are out there.
Curtis
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The main problem with barred Ameraucanas is leg color.
Ameraucanas are supposed to have slate or dark colored legs.
The barred gene inhibits the dark leg color. We probably could get dark legged barred birds if someone was willing to take the time to hatch a lot of birds and select hard for dark legs. I saw a dark legged barred silkie once so I know it can be done. Maybe we should start with one of the dark skinned strains of easter eggers that are out there.
Curtis
Curtis, silkies have black skin, that is why you saw a dark legged barred silkie. Ameraucanas have white skin.
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Interesting, so why not allow for the white legs for this color pattern?
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IMO, I think all ameraucana color varieties should have the blue/slate legs.
Recent changes were made to allow for black legs in the breed. I don\'t agree with that decision.
Where will changes stop?
Who will want white legs, green legs, and then yellow legs accepted later down the road? Why don\'t we include acceptance of all Easter Egger characteristics as well? Let\'s even accept brown and olive egg layers as ameraucana too. Oh yeah, let\'s even have any assortments of combs accepted. How about we change this.....how about we change that.
All of this may sound sharp, but I\'m a part of the ameraucana club for a reason.
The point being.......stick to the standards of the breed! If you can breed up Easter Eggers to the standards and quality of Ameraucana for the purpose of creating new color varieties, then so be it. But anything that has to be changed for acceptance, IMO, is getting closer to acceptance of Easter Eggers!
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IMO, I think all ameraucana color varieties should have the blue/slate legs.
Recent changes were made to allow for black legs in the breed. I don\'t agree with that decision.
Where will changes stop?
Who will want white legs, green legs, and then yellow legs accepted later down the road? Why don\'t we include acceptance of all Easter Egger characteristics as well? Let\'s even accept brown and olive egg layers as ameraucana too. Oh yeah, let\'s even have any assortments of combs accepted. How about we change this.....how about we change that.
This may sound sharp and I want appoligize but I\'m a part of the ameraucana club for a reason. The point being.......stick to the standards for the Ameraucana breed!
Johnny,
The change for black legs for the black variety was needed as you cannot truely have a black bird with white skin and slate legs. I have been breeding my birds to the old standard, but recently found that it has come to bite me in the proverbial a--.
My black birds that have slate legs are birchen based and now that I am trying to breed lavenders, I am paying a high price for those blue legs.
Lavender dilutes black color modifiers. I have lots of lavender splits running around with silver hackles , of course I will have to cull them all as I don\'t want lavenders with dingy hackles in the future.
Back to the original subject, I don\'t foresee any leg color changes happening while I am on the board. And, I think that is the opinion of the rest of the Board Members.
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I tend to agree, that the legs should continue to be the slate with the bottoms white.
I am really enjoying the Wheatens/Blue Wheatens, the color takes longer to develop but they are worth the wait, the males are just starting to get the beard change, so in the spring I should be able to show them.
The females are looking really good.
later, phil
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Curtis[/quote]
Curtis, silkies have black skin, that is why you saw a dark legged barred silkie. Ameraucanas have white skin.[/quote]
Yes, I believe the dark skin was a factor in the dark legged barred silkie. The dark skin gene must have overcome the inhibitors of the barred gene. Maybe black or birchens with their black legs would help with the barred birds. I think I also saw some dark legged mottled Ameraucanas. The mottled gene also inhibits dark leg color so I think it could be done with the barred gene. They would need a champion who is willing to put in the development time. (Not me, I have enough chicken projects already.)
I agree with others above and would not be in favor of admitting varieties with different leg colors. I like the consistency of leg color, skin color and eye color between varieties in the Ameraucanas. Some varieties may take more work to be developed and some varieties may just not be meant to be Ameraucanas.
Curtis
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After reading through my earlier post it sounds as though I\'m attacking Birch Run Farm for asking her question. I publicly apologize to you Birch Run Farm, Ann. I assure you that attacking you or your question was not my intention. Your question is a great one and the concern of many people attempting to breed a Barred Ameraucana color variety. I\'m often times not good with my choices of words and end up with my \"foot in mouth\". I am sorry! I hope you will forgive me. I hope someone does successfully breed a Barred Ameraucana in the future.
It seems that the issue with the \"Barred Ameraucana\" is genetics that causes their leg color inconsistencies between males and females. IMO, the leg coloring inconsistencies help to give these barred birds an overall Easter Egger appearance. While appearance is not everything when judging a color variety, appearance does weigh heavy in decision.
Jean, I experienced the same issues with some of the earlier black ameraucana when I had the variety.
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Thanks Johnny, I probably look like a yahoo anyway being new on this forum. I often worry with breed specific forums because I don\'t have great SQ birds running around the property. A few good birds but that\'s it. I feel that others get angry when I post pictures and ask questions.
I like to experiment which is why I let this bird happen. I actually am pleased with the result. He\'s not bad looking so far.
Well, I will see how that cockerel ends up looking, he is still very young and molting into adult plumage and I hope he fills out in body size. Next year I will see what I get for pullets and use them with him. Naturally my goal would be blue eggs as well and not olive.
I wonder if adding a splash with bluish legs will add leg color?
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Ameraucanas have white skin.
I think what Ann is asking is: if ameraucanas have white skin, why don\'t they have white legs?
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the legs should continue to be the slate with the bottoms white.
I agree. And as mentioned there are breed characteristics that all Ameraucana chickens must have in common, regardless of the variety. Genitically we can\'t (that we know of at this point) breed Ameraucanas in some varieties, because the genes needed to make the variety conflict with the genes needed to maintain the breed (Standard).
I don\'t have a problem with black shanks on black Ameracuanas. The \"Slate\" leg/shank color required varies greatly (refer to the Standard). Just like the many shades of Gray, I see black as the darkest shade of slate (IMO...of course). White, willow or yellow would not be acceptible to most in the club.
It is a good topic and educational. I appreciate the input and Johhny, you are a gentleman!
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Ameraucanas have white skin.
I think what Ann is asking is: if ameraucanas have white skin, why don\'t they have white legs?
I hope we can all understand that shank color is comprised of not one, but TWO layers of skin. The outer (epidermis) layer of shank skin IS white on slate colored shanks. The inner layer (the dermis) contains the dark pigment (eumelanin).
Now on birds that have black feathers the eumelanin for some reason carries down into the skin of the shanks. This gives these birds a dark epidermis, and those shanks can look slate, but they are not. It takes a clear epidermis and a dark dermis to make slate. So those barred birds with the dark looking legs do not have slate legs. If anyone doubts this, just butcher one. Peel back the outer layer of skin at the junction of shank and thigh and take a look at the two layers. It would take something approaching a miracle to produce a barred bird with truly slate shanks. But there is another reason I don\'t like the barred variety for this breed.
It takes the slow feathering gene to produce good barring. This obviously does not apply to the cuckoo pattern. Slow feathering can easily lead to increased incidence of feather picking and cannibalism, especially when slow feathering birds are raised with the normal fast feathering ones. I\'m writing from experience on that and it is not a lot of fun to see otherwise good birds being cannibalized.
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I was wondering if anybody knows if blue eggs in an Ameraucana is a dominant gene. What color eggs does this cross lay?
Thanks
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It has been brought up many times before, and I believe the aswer is this: There are only two true colors of eggs, blue and white; brown is just a tint on a white egg. Blue is dominant, so cross will result as such:
blue egg x blue egg= blue egg
blue egg x white egg = blue egg
blue egg x brown egg = green egg
The blue x brown results in green due to the blue being the dominant egg color with a brown tint.
Hope this helps, and correct me if I am wrong.
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that seems pretty right, but I\'m not totally sure. thanks for your help
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I agree with jsimon and think of the egg shells like vinyl siding. White and blue vinyl is the same color inside, outside and thru...like a white or blue egg shell. If you get some light brown latex and paint the white siding, on the outside, it will be tinted (very light brown) and light brown latex on blue vinyl will look a deeper blue or green. There are many shades of brown latex and at least several brown egg shell modifiers.
There are only two true egg shell colors, blue and white. The gene that makes blue egg shells is dominant over the gene for white eggs. Brown eggs are really white eggs with a brown tint or coating. Green eggs are really blue eggs with a brown tint or coating. Just as there are many shades of brown eggs there are many shades of green eggs.
http://www.backyardpoultrymag.com/issues/2/2-3/John_W_Blehm.html
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Ameraucanas have white skin.
I think what Ann is asking is: if ameraucanas have white skin, why don\'t they have white legs?
I would like to add additional information to what Mike had posted.
The dermis on ameraucana is dark because of a recessive sex liked gene called dermal melanin (id+). This gene adds black pigment to the tissue layer just under the skin. Since the skin is white the black pigment can be seen under the skin as a slate or light blue color. The allele to the id+ gene is the incompletely dominant dermal melanin inhibitor allele. In males that are heterozygous or split Id/id+, certain genetic types of birds will show some black pigment in the dermis.
In breeds that have green or willow legs, the dermal melanin allele works with yellow skin to produce a willow leg. The darker the color of the legs the more black pigment is found in the dermis.
Tim
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Good analysis Tim, thanks. I would just like to re-emphasize that even in the presence of two copies of id, the sex-linked barring gene acts to prevent dermal eumalanin from developing.
Thus we don\'t see any barred birds with true willow or slate shanks.
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So it would be impossible to create a slate legged barred variety?
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Don\'t D\'anvers have slate legs? You could make a cross there or use a D\'uccle, but then you have to weed out the feathered leg gene. I can\'t remember which John used to create his Lavender Ameraucana\'s.
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So it would be impossible to create a slate legged barred variety?
I don\'t like the word \"impossible.\" Miracles happen every day.
Let\'s just say it is extremely unlikely. But there are other forms of barring than the sex linked one which prevents dermal melanin. It might be more productive to pursue those.
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Well, I will work on color and body type first, see what happens and go from there to get leg and egg color. I only have the one cockerel at the moment. Breeding season is over here in the mountains, winter is close to knocking on the door. I have four mothers with two week old chicks running around (araucana and EE) and it is 34 degrees this morning.
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There is always autosomal barring like in campines. That would work.
The mechanism by which of the barring gene produces barring causes the inhibition of the black pigment in the dermis. If the barring gene did not inhibit the melanin in the dermis it would not produce a bar.
The barring gene also inhibits the production of red pigment. A bird that should be dark mahogany is a light (almost buff) red color when they carry the barring gene.
The barring gene effects the entire bird.
There are exceptions. In birds that are columbian restricted, recessive or dominant white and carry the dermal melanin gene, the barring gene actually enhances the dermal melanin (slate color in legs).
Tim
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There are exceptions. In birds that are columbian restricted, recessive or dominant white and carry the dermal melanin gene, the barring gene actually enhances the dermal melanin (slate color in legs).
Tim
Tim,
I used a cuckoo maran so my assumption is I could not acheive the dermal melanin? He actually has darker top coloring on his shanks and toes than my blue wheaten cockerel. The toe webbing though shows pink.
My goal was to cross the blue ameraucana cock with the marans hens to breed a few pullets then breed them to this cockerel.