Ameraucana Breeders Club
The Official Forum of the Ameraucana Breeders Club => Breeding => Topic started by: dak on February 26, 2013, 09:57:23 PM
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The more you study the better you can evaluate your chicks at a younger age.
Right on! I've been promoting culling day-old chicks for several years now based on phenotype. Once you figure out which chick phenotype grows into the best show quality birds you will know what to look for and save money by not broodering and feeding the run of the mill chicks. "Chick Uniformity" is a term I picked up somewhere along the line and even use it on my Chick Hatchery site's FAQ page.
What criteria do use cull for in Black chicks, other than deformities.
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Compare with the photos of day-old chicks on ABC site. With blacks watch out for any brown on the forehead. Sometimes things like that aren't noticed unless you take each chick in hand and really study them. Don't just look for black chicks with cream bellies. Consistency or uniformity is what I look for. Even though we are discussing the color and pattern of the chick's down remember to check the color of the pads of their feet, since shanks/legs and feet are affected by feather/down color. You want to see some pink skin on the pads.
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Clare,
I also reject any chicks with a red patch, sometimes there is just a fine reddish line before and/or after the eye. There are some also which you need to look at them in the sunshine that has a reddish cast over the head area. And and black chick that has too much white speckled on their heads.
The only other thing which I may be wrong but any chick that is pure black and has no color of yellow under the bellie area also gets culled.
Plus I cull any chick that is not showing good muffs and beards expressed. Plus any chick that is smaller than the average ones. Any with thin heads also I cull. All these chicks are not sold to anyone, I stopped selling my culls at the auctions because they end up as breeders and are seen on Ebay eventually.
I have had few if any birds with red leakage showing up on full grown males in all three black breeds that I do.
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Harry, thin heads??? How does that affect mature birds? That's a new one on me.
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Mike,
I prefer birds that have a wide head. So I keep the ones that when I look down on the head I keep them that have more width. I know they are not suppose to be as wide as a good cochin but I don;t like them to have pinched eyes. I may be a little off the SOP but I prefer a certain look.
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I don't know if white specks on head refers to what I know as "clown face", but the clown face I grew out won AOSB at show.
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I posted some of these chick photos last year. The 1st two are of black chicks, but showing different phenotype. The 3rd is a couple lavender/black splits. I think they may show the "clown face" you mention. Which is the best or correct phenotype to produce show quality blacks? All three may, but I suggest trying to breed so that all the chicks of a variety look like "identical twins" as someone mentioned on The Classroom@The Coop (http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=3&page=1).
Duane asked about "advice on culling LF W/BW chicks?"
I look for the small stripe on the top of their heads (see last photo). Other than that no other markings. The most noticeable difference I've seen is that there are two color phases...one more silver and the other more gold. Which is right? There again I don't know, but it may affect the under-color of adult birds. It would be nice if breeders were to identify some chicks and see which produced the better feather color/pattern.
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John,
As for Blacks here is my way I would cull. I have no wheatens so please no one confuse what I am saying, only referring to a pure black bird or black split lavenders.
Thanks for adding the photos. 1st picture I would cull them immediately. The second picture the one on the right is closer to the ideal I would like to see. The third picture is not the extreme and would keep them also but I have had them with more white into the heads and what I call Owl faced and I would cull them since I have had mottled and black birds with white feathers when they got their adult feathering. Like you said the chicks ideally should be marked as close as possible to each other.
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Owl faced and I would cull them since I have had mottled and black birds with white feathers when they got their adult feathering.
That's interesting. I noticed chicks like you describe, and I later had females with a lot of mottling & males with BAD leakage. I think that was the year I used plastic bandettes that either came off and/or the numbers rubbed off, so I couldn't tell which chicks became which adults. Now that I'm using wing bands, I'm going to try again taking pictures of each phenotype at different stages of growth through first molt, especially in the buffs. They are all over the place. Some of my best looking birds were the ones I questioned as juveniles & most of the good looking juveniles turned out awful. But I need a more scientific plan than ditch the pretty ones & keep the ugly ones! ;)
Not a great picture, but is this what you call owl faced?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v642/bncarey/chickens/38662b39-b6b3-44a6-beef-d920f8a094b4_zps36a62931.jpg)
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1st picture I would cull them immediately.
Why? I know that we've read that E/E (extended black) chicks have cream or gray bellies and seen many photos of them like that. What if the completely black chicks are E/E based with so many melanisers imaginable that they turn the cream to black and even the skin on the toes...and maybe toe nails to boot? It the pads are not pinkish I would cull them too...maybe too many melanisers (undesirable one or more). If the chicks grow into the best show quality blacks than I would select for that phenotype.
Here again, I don't know which is best and haven't followed thru to find out. I hope others do...I'm too lazy.
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Maybe I've been lucky to this point, but I have yet to see a black chick with brown on the head. I have had a chick that had a mottled appearance on the head and chest whn it feathered in, but didn't retain the white.
How about white tipped primaries in a juvenile. Is there a certain number/amount you can expect to disappear?
And leg/toe pigment? If the Blacks aren't E/E, but rather based on birchen wouldn't culling early be unwise?
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John, from what I've seen of your operation, and that's not much but enough to see, I doubt being lazy has anything to do with it. More like the problem of only having 24 hours in a day and the unfortunate necessity of having to make a living on top of getting done what we can with our hobby.
I am still hoping to create a weekly photo journal of my three varieties thru their first year. I've yet to get very far with that. And now you've gone and given me one more thing I would have to record! Thanks a lot! :P
I've got my new Canon 7D at the ready but I can see now where I really need to sit down and create some kind of Word or Excel document to keep a running tally of characteristics so I can see what patterns develop. Do you have anything you already use that you'd like to share for the WBS variety? If not, any suggestions?
For any other WBS variety breeders out there, John's observations bring to my mind he benefit we would all receive if we talked and shared more with each other. Perhaps there is a cross over with other varieties but I would think that we could all benefit if we find things like this and share it with each other. Obviously one can verify another's observations for themselves before counting it as gospel truth but it certainly is a head start on perhaps an otherwise totally overlooked trait.
Moreover, how much better off would we all be if we didn't have to keep feeding a bird for a much longer period of time only to find out they are a cull? How many other WBS breeders are on here? If any of you would like to work together on the variety, send me an email and let's talk.
God Bless,
Royce
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And leg/toe pigment? If the Blacks aren't E/E, but rather based on birchen wouldn't culling early be unwise?
Good point if you have a "mixed" group of chicks, some E/E, some E/ER, some ER/ER. I think John is saying he would like for all his to be E/E so there is less concern about the additional melanizers, but correct me if I'm wrong John. Since I don't raise as many in any one variety as some, I tend to wait until later to cull. There are still plenty of things to watch for, primarily physical defects or unthriftiness, in the grow-out process. Years ago I thought wheaten and blue wheaten chicks should be culled if they had a dark spot or two in the chick down. Turns out they are the ones with the best tail and wing color if they are females. Live and learn.
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Mike, that "dark spot or two in the chick down", are you referring to the spot on the head or the "line" as John referred to?
God Bless,
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Either. If they have a few dark markings the females will tend to have better tail and wing color. But sometimes along with that you get a darker shade of wheaten female, and I always preferred the lighter shade. Therein is the challenge of breeding wheaten Ameraucana females; light creamy top color while maintaining sufficient black in the wing and tail feathers. It's a wonderful color but difficult to achieve.
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Good to know! So John, do you get rid of WBS chicks that are clear on the head and back? How does this relate to the males? Are there any tells regarding the striping in the male hackle, and is this a variety that works best to double mate? Seems like balancing the clear male hackles and the darker color in the female tails is working against each other.
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Don,
Lots of questions and I don't have many answers. Wheaten and blue wheaten are a couple varieties I've given up in both bantams and LF. I don't think we want any markings on the chick's backs, just on the head.
Maybe the intensity of this small line relates to the black in female's tails, male's muffs, etc...Just another question.
The "balancing" and "working against each other" are thoughts some others have had too. Barbara Campbell (and others of us) would concentrate on a color/pattern characteristic and see improvement while another area's color/pattern would go down hill.
I know Mike always preferred the lighter creamy top females and I agree they look best, but or many years I've wondered if that is what the natural color should be when breeding for proper colored/patterned males. I don't double mate and have always felt it just isn't natural to have to do that to get properly colored males and females of the same variety. In those cases I believe the Standard is wrong and should be changed to reflect the "natural" colors/patterns that "pure" single mating produces. Ken Aho is a well known breeder of partridge variety chickens. When I asked if double mating was necessary to produce proper colored/patterned males and females, he said he doesn't do it and breeds for the proper color/pattern on females. I believe that type of breeding plan should be used with wheatens, but the other way around. Breed for the proper color/pattern on males first while also concentrating on black tailed females. Let the breeding determine the shade of wheaten on the females and don't worry too much about some hackle striping...maybe it is supposed to be there with eWh (dominate wheaten). If the stiping is from a modifying gene it seems like we would have eliminated it by now. If another breed produces proper colored/patterned wheatens (the same Standard as Ameraucanas) without double mating then it can be done and maybe some crossbreeding would be appropriate.
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Good to know! So John, do you get rid of WBS chicks that are clear on the head and back? How does this relate to the males? Are there any tells regarding the striping in the male hackle, and is this a variety that works best to double mate? Seems like balancing the clear male hackles and the darker color in the female tails is working against each other.
Many years ago John Wunderlich, a renowned poultry judge and breeder, sent me (unsolicited by me) a setting of eggs from his Wheaten Old English Games. Most of the eggs hatched, but I was disappointed that they all had spots and striping, not only on the head but also the back. But I grew them out, and found the males had nice clean hackles and the females had very good wing and tail color. So from that experience I changed my mind about spots and striping in wheaten chick down. I don't think it has anything to do with the hackle striping. Conversely, we all know you can get male hackle striping from raising nice white downed chicks with nary a spot or stripe.
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they all had spots and striping, not only on the head but also the back.
I didn't think they should have striping on their back, but maybe so. I would be great if some of you wheaten breeders would follow thru and let us know which chicks feathered out closest to the standard.
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I think it really depends on the particular strain you are working with. In almost every variety there are unidentified modifying genes at work that we don't fully understand. Nobody is right or wrong here; there is no substitute for trial and error experience. That's why we should be reluctant to add different blood to a strain unless there is a really pressing need. When you do that, what you learned from experience before may no longer apply.
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Mike, That makes a lot of sense about adding another line of birds to your flock and risk changing the characteristics of how it may effect the phenotype on chicks you have worked on for years. I never thought of it that way. I guess that comes from experience.