Ameraucana Breeders Club
The Official Forum of the Ameraucana Breeders Club => Breeding => Topic started by: Susan Mouw on February 09, 2016, 07:59:55 PM
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It has just been brought to my attention that there is a well-known breeder selling his pure-bred Ameraucanas to Cackle Hatchery. Cackle Hatchery is breeding that pure-bred stock and selling them as Ameraucanas.
The argument in byc is that this will, somehow, better the breed and help eliminate the confusion over EE vs Ameraucana.
My fear is that, within a few generations, this will cause a Rhode Island Red type split in the breed and we will have "hatchery quality" and "breeder quality", with few discernible similarities between the two. It is unlikely that Cackle Hatchery will do the selective breeding and culling that a breeder would do.
Maybe I'm being too "doomsday"...what do others think?
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I'm involved in the BYC discussion, but don't know enough to comment here. I'm really curious to see the responses
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Dan - I'd like to hear your take on it. :)
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Dan - I'd like to hear your take on it. :)
Ok, but bear in mind this comes from someone that only in the last year has gotten breeder quality birds.
As I said on BYC, I compare it to my first experience with BCM. Marans are so popular, and the gene pools have gotten so diluted by hatcheries and greedy "breeders", that bad birds are not easily picked out by an amateur. I can look at an orange EE and a Black AM and see the obvious difference in those birds. Right now, someone wanting to buy Ameraucanas could put Ameraucanas into a search engine, and most of the returns would either be relatively well bred AMs, or EEs that were misrepresented. Obvious difference between those two birds.
When I put black copper marans into a search engine, I saw dark eggs and black birds with copper necks, so I found a "breeder" two hours from me that had them for sale. I actually drove to get them to avoid losing them in shipping. I didn't know anything about yellow skin, Penedesenca combs, side sprigs, white feathers, straw hackles, or any of the other egregious faults that initial flock had. The breeder had dark eggs and black chickens.
I fear that is what will happen with the AMs. Most people want AMs for blue eggs, and those people buying from hatcheries, then further diluting that bloodline by not breeding them correctly, are going to do the same thing to the AMs that has been done to the BCM.
I understand that hatcheries could pick up some birds any time they wanted to, then breed and sell those birds. It just surprised me who was promoting it...
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As you know I am new to Ameraucana breeding however I am familiar with K9's and I can tell you that a breeder of show quality dogs would never sell to a puppy mill.
Its like any commercial business where quantity typically trumps quality over time and each bird will be used to produce my most profit regardless of conditon/standard/temperment etc.
I was turned onto the breed mostly due to the fact that I saw so many misrepresentations by hatcheries and many people confused about the diffrence between EE's and Ameraucana's. Because of this problem it was clear that I needed to reach out to a breeder. I may have paid more but I got the birds I wanted.
I guess my point is * I think access to commercial "pure breed" ameraucanas will hurt breeders in two ways. One is the diffrence between pet/backyard quality and pure selectivley bred birds will have less importance to general poultry hobbiest than the price. and two commercially bred birds may not live up to the hype of the breed and it may turn people away from them altogether.
I hope that is not too negative of a response. It does mean it may take more work in promoting the quality of birds bred to improve the breed.
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Took a gander at Cackle Hatchery website, not all impressed with the photos of their breeding stock. Perhaps it was they were too crowded together to get a true picture. Pictures do not hold a candle to the ones Paul takes at shows, but that may have to do with the subject. Nice pictures of blue eggs though. $10.90 ea for SR day old chicks no bargain for hatchery run quality chicks. Look what happened to LF Silver Laced Wyandottes. I dare say you could order 1000 day old chicks from any hatchery and not get 1 show quality bird. Over the years hatchery stock has regressed greatly from the Standard. Time will tell. Perhaps we will have 3 classes of so called Ameraucanas. EE HATCHERY QUALITY BREEDERS QUALITY
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Marans are so popular, and the gene pools have gotten so diluted by hatcheries and greedy "breeders", that bad birds are not easily picked out by an amateur. I can look at an orange EE and a Black AM and see the obvious difference in those birds. Right now, someone wanting to buy Ameraucanas could put Ameraucanas into a search engine, and most of the returns would either be relatively well bred AMs, or EEs that were misrepresented. Obvious difference between those two birds.
When I put black copper marans into a search engine, I saw dark eggs and black birds with copper necks, so I found a "breeder" two hours from me that had them for sale. I actually drove to get them to avoid losing them in shipping. I didn't know anything about yellow skin, Penedesenca combs, side sprigs, white feathers, straw hackles, or any of the other egregious faults that initial flock had. The breeder had dark eggs and black chickens.
I fear that is what will happen with the AMs. Most people want AMs for blue eggs, and those people buying from hatcheries, then further diluting that bloodline by not breeding them correctly, are going to do the same thing to the AMs that has been done to the BCM.
I understand that hatcheries could pick up some birds any time they wanted to, then breed and sell those birds. It just surprised me who was promoting it...
I agree...this is my concern, as well.
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As you know I am new to Ameraucana breeding however I am familiar with K9's and I can tell you that a breeder of show quality dogs would never sell to a puppy mill.
Its like any commercial business where quantity typically trumps quality over time and each bird will be used to produce my most profit regardless of conditon/standard/temperment etc.
I was turned onto the breed mostly due to the fact that I saw so many misrepresentations by hatcheries and many people confused about the diffrence between EE's and Ameraucana's. Because of this problem it was clear that I needed to reach out to a breeder. I may have paid more but I got the birds I wanted.
I guess my point is * I think access to commercial "pure breed" ameraucanas will hurt breeders in two ways. One is the diffrence between pet/backyard quality and pure selectivley bred birds will have less importance to general poultry hobbiest than the price. and two commercially bred birds may not live up to the hype of the breed and it may turn people away from them altogether.
I hope that is not too negative of a response. It does mean it may take more work in promoting the quality of birds bred to improve the breed.
Exactly, Kelsey! I, too come from a dog show breeding background and I would sooner run over my foot with a sod aerator (done it) than sell one of my dogs to a pet shop or interstate trader.
This is exactly what this breeder is doing and it is very concerning.
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Perhaps we will have 3 classes of so called Ameraucanas. EE HATCHERY QUALITY BREEDERS QUALITY
Yep! We will just need to beef up our advertising/promotional/educational efforts to counterbalance this.
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I dont care, or see it as a big deal. Its sets a good precedent for other hatcheries to follow. Id rather have hatcheries sell "bad" true Ameraucanas than EE's labeled as Ameraucanas.
Also we cant lump all hatcheries together. Cackle has been calling their EEs correctly even before they got their Ameraucana stock, so i can respect that. They did start with a reputable breeder. What ive heard is the owner of cackle brings in quality birds to improve their stock when its needed. Besides that, what they are doing is no different than what every "BBS" novice breeder is doing now. Which is breed everything they got initially together without a plan. I see it on Facebook all the time.
Luckily they're selling blacks, I dont think you can muck up the color, only type haha. They use to sell blues and I still know breeders who have the blues that originated from them and from what I was told they were really good "typed" blues.
Only time will tell.
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Besides that, what they are doing is no different than what every "BBS" novice breeder is doing now. Which is breed everything they got initially together without a plan. I see it on Facebook all the time.
Luckily they're selling blacks, I dont think you can muck up the color, only type haha. They use to sell blues and I still know breeders who have the blues that originated from them and from what I was told they were really good "typed" blues.
Only time will tell.
I don't think you can compare what a few novice people are doing with their backyard pens of a few blacks, blues, splash with the visibility and genetic impact of a good sized commercial hatchery. And, while you may disagree with inter-breeding blacks, blues, and splash; there are many other breeders that have been around a lot longer than either you or me, Cesar, that have made that a standard practice. Don't confuse disagreement over methodology with a complete lack of breeding ethics.
Those novice breeders will either get out of Ameraucanas in a few years when their poor quality birds don't win at shows or don't sell enough to pay the feed bills. That commercial hatchery will only ramp up production as the demand for Ameraucanas grow - as it is now.
I do not think Cackles is setting a good example for other hatcheries to follow. I do think they are setting a precedent that will be regrettable in the future.
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Besides that, what they are doing is no different than what every "BBS" novice breeder is doing now. Which is breed everything they got initially together without a plan. I see it on Facebook all the time.
Luckily they're selling blacks, I dont think you can muck up the color, only type haha. They use to sell blues and I still know breeders who have the blues that originated from them and from what I was told they were really good "typed" blues.
Only time will tell.
I don't think you can compare what a few novice people are doing with their backyard pens of a few blacks, blues, splash with the visibility and genetic impact of a good sized commercial hatchery. And, while you may disagree with inter-breeding blacks, blues, and splash; there are many other breeders that have been around a lot longer than either you or me, Cesar, that have made that a standard practice. Don't confuse disagreement over methodology with a complete lack of breeding ethics.
Those novice breeders will either get out of Ameraucanas in a few years when their poor quality birds don't win at shows or don't sell enough to pay the feed bills. That commercial hatchery will only ramp up production as the demand for Ameraucanas grow - as it is now.
I do not think Cackles is setting a good example for other hatcheries to follow. I do think they are setting a precedent that will be regrettable in the future.
I guess with your concern, any hatchery that does has them is bad for the breed.
I think you can compare them. Its not like they have hundreds and hundreds of breeders. Thats why they sale them 3x as much as other breeds. Plus availability is only limited.
I dont care if people interbreed the varieties, I just state that you dont get consistent offspring which is a fair assessment.
I see is a good thing. They're no different say then Whitemore Farms or Billy Bob backyard breeder who breeds in mass quantity.
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I guess with your concern, any hatchery that does has them is bad for the breed.
I think you can compare them. Its not like they have hundreds and hundreds of breeders. Thats why they sale them 3x as much as other breeds. Plus availability is only limited.
I dont care if people interbreed the varieties, I just state that you dont get consistent offspring which is a fair assessment.
I see is a good thing. They're no different say then Whitemore Farms or Billy Bob backyard breeder who breeds in mass quantity.
I don't see any hatchery marketing true Ameraucanas as a good thing, but I guess it is inevitable - for the very reason I stated above. They are popular and they sell. As a business decision, I see the purpose and motive behind that.
I am, frankly, surprised that a 'founder' of the breed would be promoting that. I don't see it as in the best interest of the breed.
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I dont care, or see it as a big deal. Its sets a good precedent for other hatcheries to follow. Id rather have hatcheries sell "bad" true Ameraucanas than EE's labeled as Ameraucanas.
Also we cant lump all hatcheries together. Cackle has been calling their EEs correctly even before they got their Ameraucana stock, so i can respect that. They did start with a reputable breeder. What ive heard is the owner of cackle brings in quality birds to improve their stock when its needed. Besides that, what they are doing is no different than what every "BBS" novice breeder is doing now. Which is breed everything they got initially together without a plan. I see it on Facebook all the time.
Luckily they're selling blacks, I dont think you can muck up the color, only type haha. They use to sell blues and I still know breeders who have the blues that originated from them and from what I was told they were really good "typed" blues.
Only time will tell.
And this is the debate on the other forum as well. I see points on both sides, and I am so new to this that I don't have a really valid argument for either side. I love to see the hatcheries distinguish EEs from AMs, but I also think the market will be flooded with sub-par birds. My guess is that eventually there will be hatchery quality and breeder quality, it's like that with most other breeds anyway, and most people buying from hatcheries won't care. I didn't know a thing about SOP until joining BYC and learning. That's what made me seek out Paul's birds to replace my EEs. I think people that want backyard layers for a pretty egg carton will buy from hatcheries, and those that learn and want more SOP birds will seek out breeders. That's exactly what happened with me. If the concern is how it will affect sales for breeders, I think it will drive the price up. After my fiasco with the BCM, I would have paid much more for Paul's birds than what he charges. Thankfully, he is a very nice man who enjoys helping people, and isn't greedy.
I saw the SLW brought up as well. A friend of mine just went through the exact same thing with those as I did with the BCM. He started with hatchery stock, learned about SOP, and replaced them with birds from Foley. He paid a fortune for an adult trio, but the difference is incredible. When the inevitable happens, and these birds are mass produced, I think it will be a good thing for the breeders and those that want to learn
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At this point, I guess there is no use crying over spilt milk. What has been done is done. (how's that for mixed metaphors? lol)
I'm just going to keep doing what I'm doing...
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I dont care, or see it as a big deal. Its sets a good precedent for other hatcheries to follow. Id rather have hatcheries sell "bad" true Ameraucanas than EE's labeled as Ameraucanas.
Also we cant lump all hatcheries together. Cackle has been calling their EEs correctly even before they got their Ameraucana stock, so i can respect that. They did start with a reputable breeder. What ive heard is the owner of cackle brings in quality birds to improve their stock when its needed. Besides that, what they are doing is no different than what every "BBS" novice breeder is doing now. Which is breed everything they got initially together without a plan. I see it on Facebook all the time.
Luckily they're selling blacks, I dont think you can muck up the color, only type haha. They use to sell blues and I still know breeders who have the blues that originated from them and from what I was told they were really good "typed" blues.
Only time will tell.
And this is the debate on the other forum as well. I see points on both sides, and I am so new to this that I don't have a really valid argument for either side. I love to see the hatcheries distinguish EEs from AMs, but I also think the market will be flooded with sub-par birds. My guess is that eventually there will be hatchery quality and breeder quality, it's like that with most other breeds anyway, and most people buying from hatcheries won't care. I didn't know a thing about SOP until joining BYC and learning. That's what made me seek out Paul's birds to replace my EEs. I think people that want backyard layers for a pretty egg carton will buy from hatcheries, and those that learn and want more SOP birds will seek out breeders. That's exactly what happened with me. If the concern is how it will affect sales for breeders, I think it will drive the price up. After my fiasco with the BCM, I would have paid much more for Paul's birds than what he charges. Thankfully, he is a very nice man who enjoys helping people, and isn't greedy.
I saw the SLW brought up as well. A friend of mine just went through the exact same thing with those as I did with the BCM. He started with hatchery stock, learned about SOP, and replaced them with birds from Foley. He paid a fortune for an adult trio, but the difference is incredible. When the inevitable happens, and these birds are mass produced, I think it will be a good thing for the breeders and those that want to learn
I agree with you. Those who want SOP quality will seek out reputable breeders, those who want regular backyard layers will seek hatchery and novice backyard breeders.
But at least they're disguising Ameraucanas from EEs. Its something that can be used to against other hatcheries.
So far Cackle and Meyer sells SOP Ameraucanas.
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So far Cackle and Meyer sells SOP Ameraucanas.
Presumably, first generation. It will be interesting, or disheartening, to see the F2, F3... generations.
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Here's how I see it:
Anyone wanting to get into shows is going to know (or realize very quickly) that they have to buy from a breeder, not a hatchery. To go along will your dog example: no one buying from a puppy mill buys in hopes of showing their dog some day. It's two different worlds. And considering the fact that there are "hatchery quality" and "breeder quality" of pretty much every variety I can think of, I don't see how Ameraucanas would avoid that fate. If not now, it would be next year, or the year after. Or maybe they would've gotten their start from someone NOT as prominent, and then it'd really go down fast.
I guess the bottom line is, I feel it's an inevitable event. We just need to continue encouraging people to buy from breeders...
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I agree, Michelle - it is inevitable.
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:) Here's my take on it:
I don’t think there’s anything too worry about. I’ve always felt that hatcheries have their place, and make an important contribution in getting people started in chicken keeping. Folks that choose to delve deeper into breeding poultry soon learn just how important selection of breeding stock is no matter where their stock comes from. So yeah, purchasing chickens from a good hatchery can give a person a start, but they need to be prepared to do some serious selection if they want to make progress towards their goals.
Personally, I’ve never felt there was anything wrong with starting with hatchery birds if that was the best source of stock available. Not all breeds are easy to get ones hands on, some are next to possible. Besides, I don’t think hatchery birds are bad per say. If anything, they are strong, resourceful chickens bred for production first and foremost. Of course, not all hatcheries are created equal, nor are their birds. (But neither are breeders if we're being honest.) Besides, I would think most hatcheries are run by skilled professionals who know what they are doing, or employ those that do. Maintaining huge, diverse gene pools on such a large scale is no small feat, imo. (and truly how many backyard breeders can say the same? I know I cannot.) So assuming hatchery = bad breeding is not always the case.
In fact, in some cases I think people would be farther ahead getting chicks directly from a good hatchery rather than buying from someone basically selling the same thing privately. Now I'm not talking about a well-established breeder who has been working hard and making good progress with their flock for 10+ years. That's still the best way to get a good start in any breed or variety imo. But there are many private sellers who sell chicks and eggs from a trio or small group they’ve kept back from their own hatchery chicks purchased the previous year. In both these cases one would need to be prepared to do some heavy, heavy culling...but you would likely get a wider range of genetic material to play with from chicks straight from the hatchery, rather than from a trio that came from the same hatchery. Just my few cents on the matter, hope that makes sense...
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Couldn't someone start with hatchery birds and breed out bad qualities? It would take a few generations, but isn't it possible? For example, I have three blues that I am certain aren't pure Ameraucanas due to their "gypsy faces", but they look close to the real deal. Couldn't those three be bred to an overall good quality black Ameraucana Rooster that has some white leakage, in order to reduce leakage in the next generation? Correct me if I'm wrong.
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Well, that is the way some people start out, but it's not necessarily the best and certainly not the quickest way to get back to SOP.
The challenge with the blues is that you're only seeing the tip of the iceberg, genetically. Since you don't know their background, you may have a lot of unknowns (recessives) that will start showing up in the next generation, and could plaque you for a long time.
Of course, we know the background on the black, but I wouldn't want to use one with the leakage he is showing. Might just hold onto him until his first molt, though, and see what happens.
Post a pic of him, if you get a chance, showing his leakage and maybe we can get some expert opinions. :)
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It can be done Lavender. If you read some of the old variety history discussions that is the way a few were developed. It would take a long time to clean up the colors. And it seems like a lot of trouble since there is good stock readily available. Someone has spent the time and money to progress the varieties that we currently have. So it seems like reinventing the wheel in some ways. But some people like projects.
I am not sure about your question about using a black male with leakage? Using the best breeders without leakage is the fastest route to clean colors.
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Lavender, I agree with Susan and Don. Yes you could use those birds as breeders but it would take time and a lot of culling and many generations to get to the starting point of coming close to the standard of perfection. After that there is always continued culling do to combs, tail set, coloration etc. Have you ever looked at several birds and said " Boy, I wish that I could put that comb on that bird, or wow if that bird only had the tail set of my other bird. Man does that Black have a nice shiny Green sheen to his feathers". It's easier said then done, but that keeps all of us striving for the betterment of the breed. Good luck on which ever route that you decide to pursue, but most of all thanks for your interest and in joining the ABC.
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oh, I see. That makes sense. Thanks.
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Well if every bird from any breeder is 100% SOP it would be wonderful. At least these hatcheries have conformed to what has been requested of them to be truthful.
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Well if every bird from any breeder is 100% SOP it would be wonderful. At least these hatcheries have conformed to what has been requested of them to be truthful.
I don't know anyone that claims their stock is 100% SOP, Harry. But, at least, most of the ones I know are evaluating their stock and choosing the best to carry on the following year, and removing the dead weight from the breeding pens.
Since a commercial hatchery's primary motive is the bottom line, I doubt that anyone would, or be qualified to, cull stock that is live and well enough to breed. Therein lies the problem and the primary difference between a commercial hatchery and a reputable breeder.
If I sell someone a bird that is a cull, I take the time to explain to them why I'm selling that bird and point out the deficiencies that I see. When was the last time a commercial hatchery did that?