Ameraucana Breeders Club
The Official Forum of the Ameraucana Breeders Club => Ameraucana Marketplace => Topic started by: Guest on April 30, 2007, 03:12:19 PM
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I have a situation that I would appreciate some feedback on...
I keep and breed 3 breeds of chickens; Blue Wheaten Ameraucanas (very nice stock purchased from Barbara Campbell on 2 separate occasions, which breed true and provide consistent egg color.... HI Barbara!), Buff Orpingtons, and Cuckoo Marans. While my chickens free range my farm during the rest of the year, I separate my birds into breeding groups 30 days before I begin to collect eggs for hatching. Never a problem until now.
I had a local guy call me about BW Ameraucana chicks this spring. We talked on the phone at least 3 times, and during the first 2 calls he asked me at least 3 times in each conversation what color my eggs are. The third call he only asked me once. Fast forward to chicks have been picked up by him and his 3-year-old child (and he was happy with the egg color after all that!) I get a call and email a few days later that one of the chicks looks like a Buff Orp. I know from our previous conversations that he has Buff Orp chicks purchased from someone other than me, so my first thought is that the young child might have mixed up the chicks. No, he assures me this did not happen. I\'m trying to figure out how this could have possibly happened on my end... while I did have Buff Orp eggs in the \'bator during that particular hatch, none of the Buff eggs hatched out, and we learned that all our Buff eggs were not fertile (I had used a young Buff rooster). I have a small operation, I do it all myself and I\'m not color blind, and no brown eggs hatched, so there is no doubt there.
Assuming the customer is always right, and after wracking my brain, the only thing I can think of is that, due to the fact that my BW Ameraucana birds are in an A-framed ark (which has heavy rabbit wire... only 1/2\" holes in it) that maybe one my extra Buff roos that free-range during breeding season MIGHT have bred one of the housed hens through the wire??? Do you think this is at all possible or probable? Here is a photo of the ark (which had Marans in it at the time the photo was taken):
http://www.greenerpasturesfarm.com/ChickenHousing.html The housing in question is the top photo on the above URL.
I have more BW eggs in 2 incubators and have mentally written them off as a loss for breeding stock because of this claim. I guarantee the purity of my birds and have already promised to replace all the chicks this guy purchased from me with new stock AFTER I move my BW group to another henhouse and wait 30 days before collecting eggs again.
I\'m not asking about my guarantee; I will honor it no matter what. But I need to know for my own peace of mind if it is at all possible that a hen could have been bred through the wire?
Thanks!
Ronda
SW Washington
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I\'ve never seen this happen, yet I could swear that some chicks come out with traits of a breed or variety housed next to them where all that separates them is a little bit of chicken wire. The occupants of each individual pen had been separated for their entire lives.
Maybe the stuff stayed stored up in a leg or their toe or something where the hen held it back in reserve in order to fertilize an egg weeks later just so it could mess with our minds.
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Hi Ronda, welcome aboard! I sure wouldn\'t think this would be possible, but hey what do I know? Make me glad I only have the wheatens and blue wheatens!
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Whether the chick is buff orpington or not should not be rocket science. Since this guy is local, take a look at the chick. Is the comb single or pea? Are there muffs or not?
Why does he say it \"looks like\" a buff orpington? It may be he is just angling for some free chicks. I don\'t think you have to take the position that all these chicks are hybrids or that you are guilty until proven innocent. If one or more are hybrids, which should be easy to figure out once they are feathered out, I would replace each of those with two pure Ameraucanas. Anyone should be happy with that IMHO.
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Hi Ronda,
I\'m new here and sure don\'t have the depth of experience the rest of these folks do, but years ago I read somewhere that eggs can be fertilized 6 weeks before they are layed. I know this is not what I\'ve been seeing on this board, with most people using 30 days as the rule, but I do have some personal experience that indicated to me that this was true.
A few years ago I had a small flock of Partridge Rocks with a beautiful rooster (\"Handsome\"). I also had one White Rock rooster (\"Percy\") who ran with the group. Well, Percy was killed by a neighbor\'s dog and about 5 weeks later Handsome (my last rooster) was killed too. I decided to hatch out some eggs to get a new \"Handsome Jr.\" and immediately began collecting eggs to hatch out.
Of 25 eggs that hatched, one of them was a white chick. I presumed it was a cross with Percy. Of course, I realize it *could* have been just bad breeding from the hatchery flock, but I really do believe it was Percy\'s progeny.
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The fact that one white chick hatched proves at least one of your hens were carriers of the recessive white gene, and
\"Handsome\" very well could have been a carrier as well, especially if he came from the same source. White Plymouth Rocks, like White Ameraucanas, are produced from two copies of recessive white. Two colored birds that are both \"carriers\" will produce (theoretically) about 25 percent white chicks. This year I am getting white bantam chicks out of my black gold mating pen, and it has been many years since that has occurred. From a genetic standpoint, the same thing occurs when Wyandotte breeders get single combed chicks. And there are many other examples of recessive traits popping up unexpected.
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Thanks for all the responses thus far. One of my nagging questions was just how long the sperm remains viable, so thanks for addressing that, too. Six weeks will become my new minimum before collecting eggs!!!
I have BW chicks hatching out now (and another batch coming in a couple weeks) and will be able to monitor those myself for any indications of crossing. I had sold my entire first hatch, and while the buyer offered the bring the chick to me to see it, I declined (biosecurity and all that) and requested photos of the chick in question with the BW chicks. Yes, it looks to me like a Buff Orp chick (it\'s just beginning to feather out), but I\'d like to see what it looks like as it matures... if it has muffs and all that. Yesterday I made that request, and I wonder how long it would take for those things to be noticeable?
Ronda
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Ah, Mike, thanks for the information. I assumed that the Rocks had been around long enough that such genetic throwbacks would be rarer than that.
I definitely have to do my homework before beginning any type of breeding program, which is quite obvious. :)
I\'m very glad to be here, am enjoying reading all the posts.
So Mike, (or anyone else) since most of the breeders here seem to subscribe to the 30-day viability rule, is that a well-established guideline? Wondering if there is disagreement among breeders or scientists since as I stated before I had at one time read about a \"6 week rule\".
Thanks for your input.
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Hi, I hardly have any experience to offer an opinion on chicken copulation, but I just wanted to say I have enjoyed browsing your site, GreenerPastures! B)
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Generally it is accepted that two weeks is enough separation to insure that you are getting the right mating. But this may not be absolute.
There is a more accurate method if you must be sure.
Separate the females from all males, and start setting the eggs immediately. Candle all the eggs at seven days and then throw them away. When all the eggs are candling clear at 7 days, then you can be sure that the hens are no longer fertilized by any previous matings. Then you can put them with the male that you want to use and be confident that the eggs that you hatch are from the correct mating.
By the way, this method would also confirm that your hens are not being bred through the chicken wire by your free ranging males.
Curtis
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Separate the females from all males, and start setting the eggs immediately. Candle all the eggs at seven days and then throw them away. When all the eggs are candling clear at 7 days, then you can be sure that the hens are no longer fertilized by any previous matings. Then you can put them with the male that you want to use and be confident that the eggs that you hatch are from the correct mating.
Curtis that is a great answer and sure sounds better than guessing at whether 30 days, 6 weeks or 42 day plus one minute is enough.
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Separate the females from all males, and start setting the eggs immediately. Candle all the eggs at seven days and then throw them away. When all the eggs are candling clear at 7 days, then you can be sure that the hens are no longer fertilized by any previous matings. Then you can put them with the male that you want to use and be confident that the eggs that you hatch are from the correct mating.
Sounds like a scientific response to me. I like it. I\'ll remember this when the time comes again.
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I do not think the male BO would be able to mate through the fencing. Males only deposit about 10% of the semen they produce inside the female. And through the fence I think that it would be impossible to deposit any semen into the hen. I think the guy is trying to pull a fast one.
Thirty days is long enough to isolate a female for reproductive purposes. Females can store sperm in sacs that they have in their reproductive system. They layer the sperm into the sacs. Oldest sperm is at the bottom of the sac. The sperm at the top of the sac will fertilize the eggs.
Curtis\'s idea sounds like the way to go.
Tim
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I replaced his birds with chicks hatched from an acceptable date, which was more than 6 weeks after putting my groups together. I refunded to him $8 for the one chick I was short. I apologized for the problem and I personally delivered the replacements to his doorstep 9 days ago.
He\'s back again, wanting more replacements. One of the replacement chicks died (it was fine when it left my home, but he insists otherwise), and another has a crossed beak.
Are crossed beaks hereditary or nutritional or an incubator problem? I stayed up way past my bedtime this evening trying to find an answer to this question, to no avail.
This guy lives in the city and has never had chickens before, yet claims crooked beaks are hereditary. Since I\'ve only seen a crooked beak once before in a batch of purchased chicks (and never before in chicks I had produced), I\'m not familiar with crooked beaks or their causes, and I\'ve never seen it in this particular breed which I\'ve kept and bred for 3 years now.
I could very well give him two of the chicks I kept for myself as he is requesting, but if he\'s concerned about hereditary issues (he wants to breed) then why would he want more from me? If this is a hereditary issue, then I should be culling all my breeding stock (of this breed), right?
He\'s pushing all my \"conscientious breeder\" buttons, and even tossed in a \"my kids are disappointed\" for good measure, but if I give him two more pullet chicks, then I\'m just creating more problems for my reputation if they go on to produce more crooked beaks, right? I guess I just answered my own question and should refund all of his money.
Ronda
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Wow. I don\'t have an answer for you about the cross beak. But you have my sympathies. This guy sounds really fun. Good grief.
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Ronda,
I think it\'s interesting the you said \"crooked\" beaks and hmedford(?) said \"crossed\". I\'ve seen both. If you look at a bird head-on and notice the beak to curve to the left of right, while still closing properly, I refer to that as a crooked beak. This has been a problem with some of my brown red bantams.
More often what people notice is a crossed beak. The chick looks normal at birth, but over the first few weeks the upper and lower beaks cross and don\'t come together properly. There are other beak deformities too. I believe these are congenital defects and that most are caused from breeding birds that are too closely related. I\'ve hatched well over a thousand chicks this year and had a few crossed beaks appear.
These things happen. Maybe give him the money back and take the birds back. You may have to state in the future they are buying the birds \"as is\", or you\'ll be replacing the adult hens because they don\'t lay enough eggs or the a cock because he isn\'t fertile.
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I used both terms (crooked, crossed) because I\'m not familiar with this problem and don\'t know the difference, but in searching last night found the 2 different descriptions, and wanted to cover all my bases.
In my searching last night I found 1 reference each for genetic, nutritional and incubator problem for this, which just confuses things further for me.
I did not see a crossed beak when these chicks were at my home, but I must admit that I wasn\'t looking for one either, since I have not produced any before in my 8 years of breeding chickens. As stated before, I know what it looks like because I received a chick (a variety I no longer have) that had a crossed beak, and that\'s the extent of my experience in this particular area.
Yes, I need to nip this in the bud, and you confirmed my decision; take the birds back and refund. I should have followed my gut instinct when he asked me no less than 7 times (in 3 phone calls) what color my eggs are. Good advice about the future, too... Thanks!
But... I\'m still left with my question about my birds... is this a reason to cull my breeding stock, which I\'ve had NO problems with before, and are eggcellent producers in egg color and quantity, in addition to the fact that they are beautiful? Or do I have a lurking demon in their genetics?
Ronda
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genetic, nutritional and incubator problem
Sometimes it is a guessing game. When you are hatching several breeds/varieties and it only shows up in certain varieties you bet it is linked to the genes. That still doesn\'t mean cull the breeders. My theory is most congenital type defects will disappear by finding different breeding partners for you birds. I know of folks in the past that would buy 25 LF black chicks from me and 25 from Paul Smith, so they could breed males from one strain to the females of the other. I try to keep two strains of each variety that I breed. That way I can breed cousins, but not siblings (usually).
I bought 25 LF Lakenvelder chicks from a major hatchery a week ago (for a future breeding project). They sent 26 in the box and one had stradeled legs. I\'ve hatched chicks with the same condition and culled them. The point is \"these things happen\".
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I\'ve hatched well over a thousand chicks this year and had a few crossed beaks appear.
These things happen. Maybe give him the money back and take the birds back. You may have to state in the future they are buying the birds \"as is\", or you\'ll be replacing the adult hens because they don\'t lay enough eggs or the a cock because he isn\'t fertile.
Well, he wasn\'t answering his phone yesterday, so I sent an email stating that we will pick up the birds and issue full refund. I\'ve since received yet another email from him stating that he now wants a refund on the replacement birds, among other things. You were right; this could go on forever! I need to get those birds back!
I sent a no-nonsense letter demanding a time today when we could do the pick up and refund. I hope this is the end of it, and need to learn to follow my gut instincts when talking to potential buyers, because I had several red flags before this one even got to my door to pick up chicks in the first place. I also added some stuff to my contact us page to hopefully prevent such nonsense in the future. All it takes is one person!
Thanks for all the help and advice! Great forum! I\'ll be back when I have more pleasant stuff to discuss! :rolleyes:
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My understanding is that crossed (or scissor) beak is hereditary. However, that does not mean that your breeding stock is bad. Mutations do spontaneously occur in single individuals. If you hatch other chicks with the same problem, I would definitely change the breeding set-up (such as use a different male). That customer of yours sounds like a jerk and you are being very nice about it (to your credit!). Personally, I would take everything back and refund his money.
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Sounds like this person just decided he didn\'t like the chicks for whatever reason and just wants his money back.
If you give him his money back, he will, maybe, tell 2 people that you did that.
If you don\'t, he will tell 20 people you refused a refund for damaged birds whether its true or not.
It isn\'t worth the hassle or possible damage to your reputation.
I would take them back, and hope you might have a chance to brag that one of those refund chicks turned out to be a best in show winner! Ha!
Sterling
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Sounds like this person just decided he didn\'t like the chicks for whatever reason and just wants his money back.
No, no no... you and the last poster must have missed something. I\'m trying to refund his money in full and get the chicks back. He\'s refusing. I have been bending over backwards for this guy.