Ameraucana Breeders Club

The Official Forum of the Ameraucana Breeders Club => Breeding => Topic started by: Christie Rhae on March 20, 2012, 06:04:49 PM

Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Christie Rhae on March 20, 2012, 06:04:49 PM
I am very interested in working on a blue laced ameraucana.  I have been reading a lot about it and I know it will take a long time and a lot of hatching.  I have nothing but time and am fascinated by the project.
 
I am going to use Blue Andalusians and Black Ameraucana.  Blue Andalusians have white skin, white eggs, single comb, white ear lobes, and very pinched flat tails.  So those are some of the things I will be working with.  It seems that it is not agreed upon whether andalusians are E/E or ER/ER.  Their genotype is E/E or ER/ER, Co/Co, (Mi-Pg)/(Mi-Pg).  Regardless I will be starting with black ameraucana that are E/E based.

I have discovered that breeders of Blue Andalusian prefer to only breed blue to blue which of course only gives you a percentage of actual blue.  I am thinking right now that the reason they do this is to get paler blue? If they only use the palest blues with the palest blues then the offspring would get lighter correct?   If the pattern genes are there it really would not matter if you bred black to splash to get all blues but the really striking blue andalusians are the ones that are ice blue with dark lacing.

 I have ordered my copy of the SOP but do not have it yet so cannot check what really is the desired shade of blue for blue ameraucana.  

I have run countless calculations to see what I will get and what would be the quickest route.  The F1 generation will all have Pg/Pg+  Ml/Ml+.  According to the chart below from Chicken Genetics (http://chickengenetics.edelras.nl/) there might be some dismal lacing...

The F2 generation is where I am going to have to hatch TONS of chicks to get the right genetic roll of the dice.  But once I get it the F3 generation is where it will get easier, then I can start breeding for type.  

Anyway, all of this is just theory and I am sure I will learn so much along the way.  In the end I may learn that it just does not work.  lol! Then no one else will have to bother going down this road.  lol  I hope that is not the case but the reward is in the journey for me.  

My Blue Andalusian eggs were sent yesterday so I decided now was the time to start a topic.  I have to actually get some blue Andalusians so sure hope I can get some to hatch.  If not I will keep trying.  The breeder I am getting eggs from has very nice birds that appear in photos to have the correct and full pattern genes.

I will report back to this thread whenever I have an update.

Mahalo (\"Thank You\" in Hawaiian) to John Blehm and Mike Gilbert for helping me get this far in my project plans!  

Stay tuned!


Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: dixieland on March 20, 2012, 07:21:12 PM
Awesome!!! I think this is a very worthwhile project!


E pili mau na pomaika i ia oe!


PS---Before I read your post, I just looked at the pictures at the bottom...At first I thought I was looking at drawings of various styles of ladies necklines and cleavage.....I will never be able to look at a laced bird again with out giggling to myself...... Yes, my mind was in the gutter  B)
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: HappyMtn on March 22, 2012, 01:22:44 PM
Blue laced _____?
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Christie Rhae on March 22, 2012, 01:55:31 PM
Quote from: HappyMtn
Blue laced _____?


Ameraucana?  Easter Egger?  lol!  :rolleyes:
...I don\'t follow.
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: HappyMtn on March 22, 2012, 02:08:55 PM
lol! Blue laced red? Blue laced gold?
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: bryngyld on March 22, 2012, 02:23:55 PM
I\'m confused.  (I have a coffee cup that says that because someone gave it to me.  huh)

Aren\'t the blue Ameraucana supposed to be laced?
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: HappyMtn on March 22, 2012, 02:42:11 PM
Quote from: bryngyld
I\'m confused.  (I have a coffee cup that says that because someone gave it to me.  huh)

Aren\'t the blue Ameraucana supposed to be laced?


Yeah- blue are already laced- that\'s why I asked.
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: OldChurchEggery on March 22, 2012, 02:42:29 PM
Quote from: bryngyld
I\'m confused.  (I have a coffee cup that says that because someone gave it to me.  huh)

Aren\'t the blue Ameraucana supposed to be laced?


That\'s what I thought, too. I was under the impression the blues were already supposed to have the darker lacing around the edges of the feathers.
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Christie Rhae on March 22, 2012, 04:38:14 PM
Oh! Lol sorry, I\'m a little slow...

Yes blue ameraucana are supposed to be laced but they really are not laced. Mostly what there is on them is edging, not lacing or the pattern genes that blue andalusians have.  Not trying to come up with anything new just improve what\'s already there.... Well maybe saying \"improve\" is too ambitious for me to say.  I just want to work on it because it fascinates me. :)
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Mike Gilbert on March 22, 2012, 07:54:38 PM
Christie is correct.   Look at the Blue Andalusians pictured on Feathersite, and you will realize all we have in LF Ameraucanas is edging, not lacing.   When you need something from a genetic standpoint, you go to the source.
She is on the right track using Blue Andalusian blood - hope she gets some well - laced ones from those hatching eggs.  I did the same thing with bantams a number of years ago, only I used a laced Sumatra bantam pullet.   If you saw Jerry DeSmidt\'s winning bantam cockerel and my bantam hen at the last national meet you will realize the progress made.  Jerry\'s bird is descended from one of mine.  They are still not as good as Andalusions, and if I had to do it over again I would go that route instead of Sumatra.  Single combs and white lobes are not that difficult to breed out of a strain.
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Chicklover on March 22, 2012, 11:13:32 PM
Mike- What would you look for to breed out the lobe color, would you just keep those that have the correct color and comb and breed back with blacks or blues? I have been thinking about the same project. I have some good lace Andalusians from Steve Jones line.  and some blacks and blues from Wayne\'s line.  What about blue to blue or will that be alot more work?
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Christie Rhae on March 22, 2012, 11:15:28 PM
OK!  I am in possession of Blue Andalusian eggs!  I will let them rest till tomorrow then incubate them for a few days without my egg turners on just to try and get the air cells set.  About half of them look a little loose.  The air cells are still on the small side so that is promising.  White eggs so I am actually going to be able to see veins.  

Whew!  Step #1 (get eggs) has been accomplished.  Now I only have one million more steps.  lol!
I am very excited.  
 :p
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Christie Rhae on March 22, 2012, 11:19:56 PM
Quote from: Chicklover
Mike- What would you look for to breed out the lobe color, would you just keep those that have the correct color and comb and breed back with blacks or blues? I have been thinking about the same project. I have some good lace Andalusians from Steve Jones line.  and some blacks and blues from Wayne\'s line.  What about blue to blue or will that be alot more work?


I have read about ear lobes.  They are not a black or white thing... or in this case red or white. lol  They can be half and half, red with white edges, etc.  I plan to just select for red to eventually eliminate the white.  I am sure I will learn more about it as I go but that is the info I have now.
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: IamBlessed on March 23, 2012, 01:14:45 AM
I\'ll put a pic of Lacy on here if someone tells me how to post a pic.  She our daughter\'s bird.  She is a Blue Andalusian and has really great lacing.  This is the bird Chicklover is referring to.
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: vanalpaca on March 23, 2012, 08:01:42 AM
I am interested in Blues with better lacing too. I will be getting my blues in this spring and it will be a while before the chickies grow up and I see where they are at.

Christie, can you elaborate on this project and how the crossing works. I haven\'t got my chicken genetics book in the mail yet, so I am WAY behind on this.

No idea what a blue andalusian looks like. A little frustrated with the chickens I already have (Welsummers) as they are not consistent from breeder to breeder. So am a bit hesitant to jump into getting andalusians when I don\'t know what I am trying to do yet. It will be a couple of years with the Ameraucanas FIRSt, before I do experimenting/projects.

Still basically figuring out chickens! But would LOVE to follow this thread!!
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: John on March 23, 2012, 09:36:48 AM
Quote
if someone tells me how to post a pic.


From the Forum Guidelines and Information...
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Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Mike Gilbert on March 23, 2012, 09:42:36 AM
As I said before, go to Feathersite.com, and search for Blue Andalusian.  That will give you an idea of the coloring we are attempting to achieve.   If you know what a \"good\" Silver Laced Wyandotte looks like (female), imagine gray and black instead of white and black.   But the genetics are quite different with the Wyandottes, so don\'t use them.   The white lobe is something that can be bred out over time as long as you are starting with Ameraucanas that have good red lobes.   Don\'t expect success with only a couple of generations - it takes time and perseverance to do a makeover like this.  And raising a lot of culls.
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: IamBlessed on March 23, 2012, 09:50:38 AM
I tried it again.  I had the picture too large earlier.
May crop a section of her to get a closer pic.
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: IamBlessed on March 23, 2012, 09:58:54 AM
Here is a zoomed in pic of the lacing on Lacy.
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: IamBlessed on March 23, 2012, 10:11:47 AM
This is our blue Ameraucana hen (have about 6 or 7 chicks from her and our Black cock).
This is what her lacing looks like.
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Christie Rhae on March 23, 2012, 02:52:21 PM
Quote from: IamBlessed
This is our blue Ameraucana hen (have about 6 or 7 chicks from her and our Black cock).
This is what her lacing looks like.


Awesome pics!  Thanks for posting those.
The blue ameraucana pic is a good example of \"edging\".  No pattern genes appear to be present.
The pic of the Andalusian seems to have the full set of pattern genes according to the chart from chickengenetics.edelras.nl/ (http://chickengenetics.edelras.nl/)  that I posted on my first post.

Breed her!
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: IamBlessed on March 23, 2012, 03:02:30 PM
We had ordered black Ameraucana and one of the chicks was light and ended up being a blue chick.  That is how we got her.
We have been breeding the Andalusian to get chicks out of her and so far only have 1 blue pullet and 1 blue cockerel.  We got 2 black and 2 splash also.  Our breeding was blue to blue because that is what we have that is old enough to breed.  Need to breed her again to the Andalusian cockerel but we may use the other hen we have for that.  They both have lacing, Lacy is just better.
Looking forward to starting this project soon.
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Christie Rhae on March 23, 2012, 03:44:17 PM
Here are some tidbits of info I found today-

This one is from a marans club forum:
\"Extended black gene tends to produce black feather edging (not a lace) on blue birds-especially females.\"

This one is from Genetics of Chicken Colours
\"If you add other genes to an ER based chicken, such as Pattern gene, Columbian, Dark Brown and Melanotic you can get beautiful effects such as lacing, spangling etc.  If you were to add the same genes to an E based bird, nothing would happen, they have no effect.\"

As John Blehm stated on his E-locus thread... we really gotta get the blues from ER/ER.  Sigh....where to find ER/ER blues.....
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Christie Rhae on March 23, 2012, 10:58:04 PM
Oh Emm Gee...
I just got my American Standard of Perfection 2010 in the mail today.  woohoo!
First thing I do is look up blue... I had no idea how lacking our blue ameraucana were.  The words...\"each feather having a sharply defined lacing of black\" screams blue andalusian.  
Oh we have so much work to do.  lol  
Again... so excited!!
 :p
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Mike Gilbert on March 24, 2012, 10:13:46 AM
Now THIS is a project I can support.   Improving what we already have is something that needs doing in several of our recognized varieties, both large and bantam.   I will leave the development of new varieties to those who have more years left than I do.    To those who wish to work on new varieties I have a little advice from someone who has been there and done that.   Perseverance over time is key.  But don\'t discount the value of existing genetic knowledge, as it will save you a lot of time and resources while you are persevering.   Time is precious and should be well spent.   Wednesday of this week I attended the funeral of a long-time acquaintance in the poultry hobby, and a current district director of the American Bantam Association.   Somewhere along the line he lost hope and snapped.  I wish I had spent more time talking to him over the years about the sure hope we have in Christ, and less about chickens.  He was only 55.
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Jean on March 24, 2012, 11:28:36 AM
Quote from: Christie Rhae
Oh Emm Gee...
I just got my American Standard of Perfection 2010 in the mail today.  woohoo!
First thing I do is look up blue... I had no idea how lacking our blue ameraucana were.  The words...\"each feather having a sharply defined lacing of black\" screams blue andalusian.  
Oh we have so much work to do.  lol  
Again... so excited!!
 :p


I\'ve only seen one bird since I started showing that met this definition.  It was a beautiful sumatra shown by Tom Kernan  (I think he is one of our members too!!!) at Ohio.

When I think of the defintion I think of the pattern I see on the laced varieties of wyandottes.
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Beth C on March 24, 2012, 11:58:42 AM
Mike: So sorry to hear of the loss of your friend. Really puts things in perspective...
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Christie Rhae on March 24, 2012, 01:16:26 PM
Quote from: Jean


I\'ve only seen one bird since I started showing that met this definition.  It was a beautiful sumatra shown by Tom Kernan  (I think he is one of our members too!!!) at Ohio.

When I think of the defintion I think of the pattern I see on the laced varieties of wyandottes.


Yeah that is awesome lacing.  One of the differences I see tho between the laced wyandottes and the blue description is
BLUE: \"main tail, main and lesser sickles, coverts.......distinctly laced with glossy black\"    
LACED WYANDOTTE: the main tail, sickles and coverts are lustrous, greenish black.  
So, no lacing on wyandottes tail.   Blue andalusians have lacing on every feather it seems..even the thighs are supposed to have laced feathers.  Which I don\'t even see on many pics of blue andalusians that I have seen here in the US.  The european andalusians have that.  
You know what they say about a little knowledge being dangerous?  lol... I might get dangerous with my new book.  Gonna drive everyone crazy quoting out of it.   :)
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: vanalpaca on March 25, 2012, 10:00:39 AM
Christie, I am interested in working on blue LF Ameraucana. Please cue me in on what you have figured out so far. I have chicks coming in this spring so I should have something to work with come next year.

Will just any Andalusian do, or is there a breeder out there that has some really good ones?

Also, don\'t know about the e genes yet. Takes a lot to get stuff into this aging brain.....so which birds on the Ameraucana have the ER/ER?? and what is that???? Cheers, Bonnie in OHIO
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Christie Rhae on March 25, 2012, 01:13:31 PM
Bonnie,
Have you read the E-locus thread that John Blehm started?  That is very informative and might help you understand that part better.

I am trying to write on this thread anything new that I figure out for the  benefit of anyone else that is also working on this.  

Are you waiting for Genetics of Chicken Colours?  I finally got mine and am half way through it.  The chicken genetics is broken down in a way that is easy to understand.  Things will make much more sense after you read that book.

The advice I was given is \"find the best laced andalusians and the best example of black ameraucana and hatch lots and lots of chicks\".  

I have not been able to find any black (or blue) birds that are based on ER/ER.  So that is a problem.  The andalusians most likely are ER/ER so I will have to select for that hopefully in the second generation.  The first generation will all be E/ER. I assume at this point that the birds with the best lacing will be the ER/ER ones.  It sounds like the lacing will work best on them.  By selecting the best hopefully one day I may have ER/ER based blues with lacing.  ;)
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Chicklover on March 25, 2012, 04:26:56 PM
i hope to get started in the next couple of weeks once to incubator gets empty. I will start this week breeding the Andalusions with my black Roo. Then hopefully will be able to get F1 and F2 this year.

Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: vanalpaca on March 25, 2012, 11:29:32 PM
Christie, not the same book as yours, but a new publication of a geneticist recommended on this forum, the comment was that he did solid work. I looked for your book, hard to find right now and cost more, too. I did see the pdf ad of it and it does look easier to understand than my author.

So there are NO BLACKS with ER/ER?? I\'ve read some on the forum and am still letting it sift into my soul. Haven\'t GOT it yet and can\'t speak it. Seriously hoping for blacks from John, have sourced a couple of Pauls Blacks and a Smith/Ribbeck line black. Not sure what all of those have as for genetics. BUT I WILL LEARN AS I GO ALONG HERE !!

I did just talk to a lady that mentioned she had Andalusians. Have to learn about THOSE now for this project. How many do I need?? Just a trio or what?? I\'m suspecting just a couple of roos?? or do I need hens, too? She has 20 chicks right now and she is 2 states away, I\'m thinking Illinois.....

Also, what Color are Andalusians coming in and if so which would I need to source for this project.

Hey, new here, knowledge level still ranking 0.......
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Jean on March 26, 2012, 12:40:59 PM
Christie,

I think I am going to go the route of using silver laced orpington when they get here.  It will only take two generations to get laced blues.  Try the kip calculator and see.

I already have second generation half orp/ half ameraucana eggs in the incubator.  The original hen was an english orpington and should have been carrying the PG gene.  It is recessive, so I will see what I get with this second cross.  I did get one hen in the F1\'s that is laying a minty egg!!!  The rest are khaki...

Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Christie Rhae on March 26, 2012, 02:39:39 PM
Quote from: Jean
Christie,

I think I am going to go the route of using silver laced orpington when they get here.  It will only take two generations to get laced blues.  Try the kip calculator and see.

I already have second generation half orp/ half ameraucana eggs in the incubator.  The original hen was an english orpington and should have been carrying the PG gene.  It is recessive, so I will see what I get with this second cross.  I did get one hen in the F1\'s that is laying a minty egg!!!  The rest are khaki...



Oh that will be cool to try a couple different things.  Don\'t want to put all our eggs in one basket...lol!  Pattern genes are pattern genes no matter where we get them right?

I will have to research the orpingtons to figure out their geno-stuff to run a calculation on \'em.

What are you going to do with F1\'s?  I am thinking of crossing F1 back to blue andalusian parent. (F1 x F1 gives much lower percentage of actual laced birds) Then I ran calculations using those offspring together. (Do we call that B1 x B1?)  And I got a much better percentage of blue laced birds.  Once I get the birds I want from that crossing (laced, bearded, pea comb, blue egger) and breed them...all babies are laced in the third gen.

Of course you may have the advantage of starting with blacks that are ER/ER.  I am going to be trying to bring the ER/ER over from the andalusians.  

What I don\'t like about the orpingtons just at first glance is their feather fluffiness and brown eggs.  I read the other night that lacing shows up better on hard feathered birds.  I guess nobody told the orpingtons that cuz they are beautiful.  lol   To me the feathers on the andalusians seemed more similar to ameraucana.

And once again I must say that this is all just theory for me...  maybe in 5 years I will actually have a clue what I am talking about.   :rolleyes:
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Mike Gilbert on March 26, 2012, 04:33:50 PM
Jean, correct me if I\'m wrong, but I believe you already feel your line of blacks is based on E^R, isn\'t that correct?  You won\'t be getting it from a silver laced bird, be it Wyandotte or Orpington either one, as they are based on e^b (brown).  I hope you have good success, but I think Christie has chosen the shorter route, especially when it comes to egg color and proper Ameraucana feathering.  BTW, Pg is capitalized because it is a dominant gene.  Time will tell;  as they used to say, there is more than one way to skin a cat.  Perseverance be with you!
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Jean on March 26, 2012, 05:22:25 PM
Yes, some of my blacks carry the E^R, but I do not know if it is one copy or two. (Two copies would indicate true birchen)

I\'m new to genetics, so forgive me if I type them wrong, but I think I got my point across. :)

I hope I would be able to tell after a couple generations which chicks would be carrying brown (partridge) based on chick down color.

It\'s a work in progress, so time will tell.
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Christie Rhae on March 27, 2012, 02:19:52 AM
Here is a link to info I found on earlobes.  It is a little...uh.. dry.  lol.  I am going to print it out and study it a little later.  Can only fit so much in my brain at one time.
genetics of earlobe color (http://www.genetics.org/content/13/6/470.full.pdf)
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: vanalpaca on March 28, 2012, 01:13:06 PM
Christie, where did your Andalusian eggs come from? I am looking at a lady in Illinois that at least had some breeder line chicks and to see if I can get those since they are only 9 hours away.

I\'m thinking I want well laced blue Andalusians to start with. Also, did you decide on which \'shade\' of blue as those are probably ice blue and not medium blue??

I think I read in the threads here that Ameraucana breeders prefer the medium blue color and other places that Andalusians prefer the lighter ice blue shade.

I won\'t have grown up birds till next Spring, so all year to learn the genetics stuff.

Thanks,
bonnie
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: bantamhill on March 28, 2012, 06:41:05 PM
I am going to do a buyer beware here! Please make sure that the Blue Andalusians you purchase really do have the necessary pattern gene and light blue with dark blue edging. Many that I have seen lately don\'t have the necessary pattern gene and look like the rest of the blues out there.

Michael
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Christie Rhae on March 28, 2012, 08:36:34 PM
Yes, I would say that a lot of the hatchery blue andalusians do not have Pg/Pg Ml/Ml. The chart on my first post shows a few combinations of the pattern genes that are less than perfect. If those birds are bred together the lacing can improve but would really not be good to use for what we want to do.
We need the deluxe package of pattern genes. Lol!
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Chicklover on March 28, 2012, 10:30:25 PM
I agree we need to start with the best lace birds that we can find and with the best blacks we can find. I believe that the hens that I have have good lacing. See the pic on the earlier post in this thread. I am working on getting some more eggs from the breeder of this line and hopefully will have some later in April, for now I am going to start with what I have.  I am going to try Black Ameraucana Roo on the Andalusion hens.  I also have a Andalusion Roo and will put him on some black Ameraucana hens. Keep the chick separate so to see which is better combo in the F1\'s
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: vanalpaca on March 29, 2012, 09:11:01 AM
I found blue andalusian eggs here in OHIO and ordered them. I don\'t know anything about them, but they are from poultry judge Tim Bowles and I see that he has judged some of the shows that you have posted results to on here.

So I am hoping that they are pretty good examples......of Blue Andalusians and what they are supposed to look like with the lacing.

The first batch will come by post. If I don\'t get good results, I will drive down 3 hours or so and pick some more up if he will allow that.

Very little online about them, anyone have links? And also, no one said WHERE they got theirs from?? Would like to know.

Thanks all.
Bonnie
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Chicklover on March 29, 2012, 11:23:14 AM
Ours are out of Steve Jones in TX. He is a judge and they have some  great lacing according to judges at shows that we took them to. I also know that the offsprings look good also from this years hatch. Some of the line has been used by a friend to get better lacing in a Auracana. They are start to look really good.
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Jean on April 01, 2012, 04:42:52 PM
This is what I have so far for my project.  This is a 1/2 english orp 1/2 ameraucana cock.

I am currently breeding him to his sisters to see what kind of lacing I may get on the offspring.


Last year:
(http://cdn.backyardchickens.com/b/bc/600x450px-LL-bc4410e6_011.jpeg)

This year:
(http://www.backyardchickens.com/image/id/6793719/width/600/height/677/flags/LL)
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Chicklover on April 01, 2012, 05:24:42 PM
Jean
 Is this the f2 cock or how many generations?
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Jean on April 01, 2012, 05:39:26 PM
First generation - black ameraucana cockerel over blue orpington hen.
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Christie Rhae on April 01, 2012, 09:48:54 PM
Wow that is encouraging to see that much lacing in F1!  I may not have that much success in F1 because I will be using E/E blacks.
 lol! maybe if I whine about it enough.... :)

You poor thing having to deal with all that mud!  Spring time in Washington? lol

Andalusian egg update: non developing.   :(   Dang it.  I will try again.

Last week I just so happened to come across some hatchery andalusians that a woman who lives in my area was getting rid of because she is moving back to the mainland.  They have just started laying.  I think one of them may have the correct lacing.  Gonna play around with what I have here until I can get the birds that I want.  
Sigh....so hard to get birds here.  Feeling sorry for myself a little this afternoon after candling my eggs.
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Jean on April 01, 2012, 10:42:35 PM
It\'s been raining, snowing, hailing and blowing for two weeks straight and won\'t clear up until Friday.
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Chicklover on April 08, 2012, 02:38:38 PM
Just set 12 Andalusion to use on the start of the project. I spoke to some friends and they feel that using the Andalusion to put lacing in is the right way if you are going to put another breed in to the mix. It is better not to put in an outside breed but if you can\'t get what you need then you sometime have to do it.
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Christie Rhae on April 08, 2012, 04:13:40 PM
Yay!! Hope you get lots that hatch!

I am starting over. None of my Andalusian eggs developed. Trying to get chicks shipped this time.
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: vanalpaca on April 08, 2012, 10:26:32 PM
MyPetChicken has chicks (hatchery stock), so if my eggs don\'t do anything, I can try there. That judge guy doesn\'t seem to be on the computer, but maybe I can get something worked out before next spring when I will need them.

I will have a blue roo and a black roo this year though, so could I use a blue andalusian hen with them and try to hatch their eggs for starting the project?

Of course, I will have to find a started hen or two.....
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Chicklover on April 10, 2012, 12:25:51 AM
Was talking with a breeder of Araucana\'s that used a andalusion to an araucana to improve the lacing in Araucana and she said that the best laced birds came from a splash to black. What do all you who have traveled this road before us think? Also should I breed an Andalusion Roo to the Ameraucana hen or the other way around? Which will give us the best type in the off springs?
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Christie Rhae on April 10, 2012, 01:11:22 AM
I am curious about this too.  In my mind it should not make any difference if the pattern genes are there.  
Blue Andalusian breeders only breed blue to blue to perfect the lacing.
I was wondering about blue marans and the lacing that they are also supposed to have.  I corresponded with Bev Davis who has been breeding marans for many years and she said that she had heard it was a good idea to use a splash now and then to \"set the lacing\".  That does not make any sense to me but I am the one with no actual experience so what the heck do I know?  
Sometimes things on paper do not translate to actual tried and true experience.  Verrryy interesting...  
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Chicklover on April 10, 2012, 08:51:22 AM
What she was telling me is that the splash is going to carry the genes also you just can\'t see what they are like you can in the blues. But if what w are looking for is blues then it makes since to use a splash because we will get all blues but I also know that it has to do with how many copies of the need genes that the splash is carrying that matters also. So I will put it out the all those that have travel this road already and get their advice.

Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: John on April 10, 2012, 08:55:35 AM
Quote
she had heard it was a good idea to use a splash now and then to \"set the lacing\".

There are a lot of old wives\' tales and the chicken fancy has its share.  Some may turn out to be true and others really seem off the wall.  Bev sounds smart to not make the claim herself, but is just saying this is what she heard.  
Some of what we believe about genetics may be outdated in a few decades, but you\'re still father ahead to base your breeding projects on science and experience rather than sayings from the old timers that are just repeating what the old timers told them may moons ago. :)
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: John on April 10, 2012, 09:07:27 AM
Quote
splash is going to carry the genes also you just can\'t see what they are like you can in the blues.

Quote
only breed blue to blue to perfect the lacing.

If all your breeders were \"pure\" for all the required genes to produce good lacing, I don\'t think it would matter too much which mating you used since all offspring would have good lacing.  Until that day, I would say the only blue to blue mating idea is the only way to make sure your breeders either have the proper genes or are closer than the other birds.  Even after the genes are set in your flock you\'ll probably want to stick with blue to blue matings to keep improving...from good to better.
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Christie Rhae on April 13, 2012, 05:55:48 PM
I just found some great info.  I am sure it is old news to most but I found it very informative..
albc-usa.org (http://albc-usa.org/EducationalResources/chickens.html)

I ordered it in print form so I don\'t have to burn up my printer..lol

There is tons of great info, I will quote a small part..
Quote
The law of ten states that in order to find one good representative, ten must be produced; to find one great individual, one hundred must be produced; to find one exceptional individual, one thousand must be produced. Retaining only the top ten percent each season will allow a breeder to make progress to- ward their desired goal.


Quote
Culling was organized such that the best representatives from each mating were retained so that no mating was favored over all others, even ones that produced more superior individuals. This approach allowed progress in pro- ductivity to be made while still retaining much needed diversity in the breeding population.


I think the article is about improving production mainly but I am sure can be applied to blue laced project.

Just me researching more...till I have the birds. lol
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Christie Rhae on April 13, 2012, 06:35:40 PM
Quote from: Chicklover
Also should I breed an Andalusion Roo to the Ameraucana hen or the other way around? Which will give us the best type in the off springs?


From what I have read I cannot see how it would make a difference if the andalusian bird is the cock or the hen.  I have not read about any of the pattern genes being sex linked.

I had thought I would start with blue andalusian cock and black Am hens just cuz it seems like the pattern genes can get spread out faster.  But actually, I guess it does not matter.  Probably the best decision would be to choose the best specimens of each breed, male or female and plan breeding pens from that.   I hope to have enough birds to have 3 lines of breeding the first year.
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Christie Rhae on April 20, 2012, 10:59:28 PM
On the backyardchickens.com site there has been talk lately of being able to see lacing on the black birds.
BYC-ameraucana thread (http://www.backyardchickens.com/t/260313/ameraucana-thread-for-posting-pictures-and-discussing-our-birds/15660)

There are pictures and I think I can actually see some faint lacing on the black feathers.  I think this might be helpful to us if we could actually tell if the black birds carry the pattern genes or not.

Update:
I am going to have very good quality blue andalusian eggs sent in a live chick box this time.  I hope they fare better than the eggs that came regular express mail.

Also.. I set some eggs from my hatchery quality andalusian pullet X splash ameraucana.  After a few weeks I will switch out with my black ameraucana.  These birds are not awesome and I am just experimenting until I get better birds.  But at least I have something to play with while I wait.  

My husband and I processed 3 cockerels last month and I am no longer afraid of having too many birds.  I know what to do with them...lol

Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: John on April 21, 2012, 11:33:06 AM
Quote
I think I can actually see some faint lacing on the black feathers.
Here is a link to an old topic that touches on this subject. 
http://ameraucanabreedersclub.org/abcforum/index.php?a=topic&t=182 (http://ameraucanabreedersclub.org/abcforum/index.php?a=topic&t=182)
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: KevinK1962 on April 21, 2012, 01:38:26 PM
Hello,
My spouse is interested in Ameraucanas & has joined this forum. I know a bit about genetics, but not much about Ameraucanas.  I hope you do not mind if I comment on this thread.

Laced blues can be on E or ER. Blue Orpingtons are laced, but on E. The patterns on ER talked about in \"Chicken Colours\" refers to the eumelanin (black pigment), being pushed to the edges of the feathers. This allows pheomelanin (colour), such as gold or silver to show as in gold or silver laced sebrights. In order to produce that type of lacing on an ER bird, dark brown columbian (Db) is necessary, as well as the usual genes necessary for lacing (Co, Pg-Ml). It is the Co, Pg-Ml which would give the lacing on blue, without pushing all of the eumelanin to the edge of the feather on ER birds, & should have the same effect on E birds too.

In my experience many black birds carry pattern gene (Pg), as well as the obvious melanotic (Ml). I have recreated laced Orpingtons without leaving the breed by crossing blacks (Ml-Pg) with buffs (most likely Co & Db). As I was not trying to improve lacing in blues, that is where any similarity to your project ends.

If I were doing your project, while waiting for your Andalusians, I\'d try breeding a black Ameraucana with a buff or a columbian (assuming you have them in your breed) & see what happens. If you can stick within the breed it makes maintaining type so very much easier.
I am not sure whether this has been previously mentioned, but Pg, Ml & Db have linkage, (reasonably close together on the same chomosome), so the genes will most often be inherited together. A first cross between a black, hopefully, carrying Pg, & a buff, would be Pg-Ml-db+/pg+-ml+-Db, Co/co+, which ought to make selecting in future generations a bit easier (you\'d be selecting for homozygous Pg-Ml-db+ & Co) & with a cross to columbian, one would not need to think about Db. I\'m sure anyone can easily select away from wheaten (eWh) or brown (eb).

When breeding blues, it seems most sensible to breed blue to blue. That way, one can see what one is selecting; if using splash there is no way to tell whether it carries genes necessary to help or hinder. As someone else said, if all the birds carried the necessary genes there would be no need to  breed to splash.

Single combs are very easy to breed out, while white in ear lobes is much less so.

I\'d give Marans a miss, as that would really mess up egg colour, introduce leg feathering, & possibly skin colour (sorry I don\'t know the correct skin colour for Ameraucanas). Also, while blue Marans, in USA, may, or may not, have lacing, the French copper blues do not, and I have never seen a Marans with proper lacing, only edging.

Regards
krys109uk

Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Mike Gilbert on April 21, 2012, 04:18:39 PM
Kevin, thanks for sharing.  I\'ll confess I had never heard about the necessity of Db for lacing.  The Sellers website does not list Db as one of the components for single lacing, but it does list Pg, Co, and Ml.   Could you give us a reference on that one?  I\'m not questioning that is correct, but would like to know who figured that one out and published it.
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: KevinK1962 on April 21, 2012, 06:07:31 PM
Hello Mike,

Here\'s a reference:

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00071669208417468#preview

Co has a more subtle effect on E & ER than it has on the other e-alleles. It is suggested that the tidy barring of exhibition type barred Plymouth Rocks is due to the presence of Co (E,B,Co), probably with enhancers, & the bright silver lacing of the silver Sussex, is thought to be due to the presence of Co (ER,S,Co).

Hope this helps

Regards
Krys109uk
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Christie Rhae on April 21, 2012, 11:27:48 PM
@ KevinK1962
Thank you for that juicy post!  I love genetic info that I have to print out and read over and over until it soaks in.  Something for my brain to chew on.  

In my research I have come across mention of Db being necessary for lacing but when I see what people commonly think is the andalusian genotype Db is not listed.

Now.. I have some 7 week old blue marans chicks growing up and I swear they have what could be lacing.  But Bev Davis says that as of right now marans do not have Pg/Pg Ml/Ml.  So I am going to go back to your post and read it over again and see if I can figure out why my blue marans with no pattern genes appear to have lacing.  

Thank you for your input on this thread!
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: John on April 22, 2012, 12:14:27 PM
Quote
The Sellers website does not list Db as one of the components for single lacing,

The Poultry Genetics site does include it as part of the recipe.  It is the same as spangled, but with Columbian added to push the black to the edges.

http://www.edelras.nl/chickengenetics/mutations1.html
Quote
ERER PgPg DbDb MlMl CoCo
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: KevinK1962 on April 22, 2012, 02:25:31 PM
Quote from: Christie Rhae
@ KevinK1962
In my research I have come across mention of Db being necessary for lacing but when I see what people commonly think is the andalusian genotype Db is not listed.



Christie,
Db is not a component of the genotype for blue Andalusions. \"Blue\" is not a \"color\" pigment, but a dilution of black pigment. Db would push all of the black pigment to the edge of the feather, leaving only color pigment.

Kind regards,
Kevin and Krys
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: John on April 22, 2012, 03:51:29 PM
Quote
Db is not a component of the genotype for blue Andalusions.

Db may be helpful with single lacing on brown birds, but it would add unwanted color to the blue variety from what I understand.
A variety with sex-linked silver would mask it, as with silver spangled.
This has forced me to go back and do some research.

I like Kevin\'s idea of crossing to buff to bring in Co, so you could stay within the breed.  Maybe try two or three approaches to the project.
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Mike Gilbert on April 22, 2012, 04:32:04 PM
Quote from: Mike Gilbert
Kevin, thanks for sharing.  I\'ll confess I had never heard about the necessity of Db for lacing.  The Sellers website does not list Db as one of the components for single lacing, but it does list Pg, Co, and Ml.   Could you give us a reference on that one?  I\'m not questioning that is correct, but would like to know who figured that one out and published it.


I read the abstract.   Carefoot says the black laced blue (Andalusian) had been confirmed to be homozygous for E, Pg, Co, Ml and db+.   The latter is not the presence of dark brown (Db), but rather the absence of it.  We need Ameraucanas to have the same genotype for plumage color as the Andalusian.   Therefore, Db would not be desired.  Am I missing something?  
For this color pattern I believe any combination of E and/or E^R would get the job done.  Since the two are so similar, chances are we will never know short of laboratory DNA analysis.
I still believe the shortest route to the goal is the one Christie proposed:   Blue Andalusian crossed with Black or Blue Ameraucana.   Single combs are easily bred out.   I have personal experience in breeding out white earlobes, and it only takes about two or three generations if you raise enough birds.   And I personally believe the Andalusian is closer to correct type than is Orpington.  Plus  the white eggs of the Andalusian won\'t mess up blue egg color.  When I crossed buff bantams with E^R (brown red) bantams, the F-1\'s looked like the Black Golds (gold version of the Silver Sussex color).  They are black with narrow gold lacing and shafting.  That\'s a long way from black laced blue.
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: vanalpaca on April 22, 2012, 06:08:02 PM
Am I correct that no one currently has Blue Ameraucanas with the correct lacing and pattern genes for lacing? But that what is currently available is with edging only? Thanks.
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: KevinK1962 on April 22, 2012, 06:12:44 PM
Hello, I am Kevin\'s spouse krys. I wrote the first couple of posts under Kevin\'s membership.

 I think we are now talking at cross purposes. I think I probably misunderstood one of Christie\'s posts from back in Feb.  
I have been trying to convey that Db is not part of the blue Andalusian genotype & that the addition of Db would give a colour similar to that of a sebright. i.e. that Db would push all of the black based pigment (which includes blue) to the edge of the feather.
I don\'t think we are disagreeing about the genotype of Blue Andalusian, other than I think it could be on E or ER.
As Clive Carefoot wrote in his paper, Blue Andalusian would be would be E or ER, Bl/bl+, Co/Co, Pg-Ml-db+/Pg-Ml-db+
Gold Sebright would be homozygous ER, Co, Pg-Ml-Db.

I suggested black (probably E) X buff. I don\'t suppose every black carries Pg, but in my experience black often does carry Pg. I have got to gold laced, blue laced & tolbunt in UK type Orpingtons by using Pg-Ml from blacks, thus avoiding outcrossing to another breed.
 I did not mean to imply the F1s would give proper lacing that one could instantly use on blues....I wish it were that easy.

I also breed, & mess around with colours of French type Marans; I have never experienced Pg in any ER Marans.

I am sorry to have caused confusion. krys109uk
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Mike Gilbert on April 22, 2012, 07:16:12 PM
Don\'t apologize, you provided some good information and made us think.   It\'s a pleasure to exchange ideas with someone so well versed in poultry genetics, and I\'m probably easily confused.   Please continue to contribute.
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Christie Rhae on April 22, 2012, 11:18:18 PM
Krys,

Are you the same Krys from the marans.org yahoo forum?  
If so, I very much enjoy your posts on that forum. Always so informative!
Marans and ameraucanas are the two breeds of chickens I have chosen to breed.
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: KevinK1962 on April 22, 2012, 11:36:59 PM
Hello Christie,
Yes, my wife Krys is involved with the Marans Yahoo group, and is friends with Bev Davis, (both Britts).

Kind regards,
Kevin
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: vanalpaca on April 24, 2012, 05:21:23 PM
15 Blue Andalusian eggs received by post, 3 made it to lockdown. 1 oozed stuff and the other 2 did not even internal pip.......so back to looking. Hoping I can talk to the judge at Lucasville show in December and maybe get a couple birds come spring......
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: heatherscooby77 on April 24, 2012, 11:14:13 PM
Well, I am interested in this project.  I considered using Blue Sumatras.  Which I still might try.  I ordered two dozen of Blue Andalusian eggs.  So I am going to try that route too.  I posted in BYC about using the Sumatras and I got a little bit discouraged.  Then I realized I am going to try, it won\'t hurt.

Now for an FYI, I had one of those cinnamon reddish color EE with a little bit of black ticking (not sure what its called).  She was one of my first hens, they told me she was an Ameraucana, but of course she was not.  I kept her for my egg flock.  After I got my pure blue roo I put them together.  Wouldn\'t you know that I got some of the most fantastic lacing I had seen up until that time!  This was 07/11, I kept the only two hens from this mating.  I will have to get pictures to make sure it is lacing, and not the edging.  I will do that this weekend.  So I can see the buff route working too, probably the 2nd gen. out.
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Christie Rhae on April 25, 2012, 03:46:58 AM
@ Heather

Yay I am glad you are gonna give it a try!
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: grisaboy on April 25, 2012, 09:14:21 PM

I am a contrarian when it comes to the genetic make up of the dark laced blue birds.  I\'m going to stick my neck out here and see if it gets chopped off.  I don\'t think the blue birds have Co columbian or Pg pattern gene.  I don\'t have empirical evidence to support my claim, but here is some of the circumstantial evidence.

1. Here is a link to a photo of a blue old english bantam
http://www.bantamclub.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=4&pid=108#top_display_media

Decent lacing if not quite up to Blue Andalusian standards.
Blue Old English Game bantams do not have Pg.  If Pg was floating around the gene pool of the Old English Game bantams I am certain that we would have laced and spangled varieties by now.  The only laced Old english I have seen were developed by bringing in Sebright Blood.  Same with Columbian.  I remember just recently when they were developing the Columbian Old English. They had to outside the breed and it took many years to get them to the proper OEG type.

2. This next link is for a Blue Partridge brahma

http://norfolkbrahmas.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/3rd-march-2012-0041.jpg

Almost by definition, Partridge birds have the Pg gene.  If Pg is responsable for the lacing in blues then a blue partridge should have excellent lacing on the blue parts.  This is a beautiful bird (the male) but not much lacing on that blue breast.

3. Third is a Blue Laced Red Wyandotte

http://www.backyardchickens.com/t/105208/blrw-pics

What is the difference genetically for a blue laced wyandotte vs the definition proposed above for a dark laced blue bird?
To me it looks like they are describing the same bird.

The assumption that Carefoot makes is that there is only one way to make a laced bird.  We know that there are more than one way to make white birds.  There is more than one way to make a black bird.  There are several ways to make a black breasted red bird.  So why would we assume that there is only one way to make laced birds?

I am not sure what is the genetic makeup of lacing on blue birds.  I suspect that it has to do with recessive melanizers (sometimes referred to as recessive black).  
I also think that the dark \'edging\' that Mike referred to above is the genetic component that we are looking for.  We just need to select for a darker, wider edge.  Bringing in the Blue Andalusian blood is a good choice for speeding up this process.

There you have it.  The contrarian viewpoint.

Curtis
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Jean on April 25, 2012, 11:03:57 PM
I am going to use my blue and black line of imported orps for now.  I am hoping that someone imports silver laced orpingtons soon.

I would much rather use a silver laced bird for this project than what I currently have.  In my mind when I read the description for blue birds in the SOP , I think of \"laced\" variety birds.  (distinctly laced in black)

I know we have some silver laced varieties already in the US, but I don\'t want to have to work on the yellow skin issues, cushion combs from combining pea and rose, or size issues.

Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Mike Gilbert on April 26, 2012, 09:13:54 AM
The blue O.E. Game above is not laced.   He has a little edging.  I have seen O.E. games at shows that actually did have lacing, but not quite as good as Andalusians.  The Wyandottes are laced, but they are based on e^b, not E or E^R.   I believe I started with blue bantams around 1978.  They were crossed with black, with each other, and with splash.  None of them ever developed true lacing.   Unless the necessary components are there the lacing will never magically appear.   Whatever those components are, they are present in the better Andalusians;  why not go there to get what is needed?
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Jean on April 26, 2012, 09:57:48 AM
Mike,

I\'d rather try to fix egg color in my project than try to rid the line of enamel white in the ear lobes.  The wheaten and silver varieties still have this issue and how long have they been around???

To each their own.... :)
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Mike Gilbert on April 26, 2012, 11:14:42 AM
Quote from: Jean
Mike,

I\'d rather try to fix egg color in my project than try to rid the line of enamel white in the ear lobes.  The wheaten and silver varieties still have this issue and how long have they been around???

To each their own.... :)


Good luck.  There are said to be 12 or 13 different genes that cause brown egg shell, some dominant, some recessive.  Actually, it is good that different members try different approaches.   That way we end up with different strains, spread the gene pool, and help ensure the long term viability of the variety.  Plus, we get to see who reaches the end goal first thanks to the internet.  
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: grisaboy on April 26, 2012, 11:22:31 AM
Quote from: Mike Gilbert
The Wyandottes are laced, but they are based on e^b, not E or E^R.  


If you exchange e^b for E^R, you would not get a blue bird.  You would get a blue laced red bird with a laced tail instead of a black tail. (Like the laced polish).  I believe the same would be tru for E.

Curtis
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: heatherscooby77 on April 26, 2012, 11:48:58 PM
Okay, this is one of my 100%  Blue Ameraucauna (7 weeks).  So just so I have this right, this is lacing and not edging???  I want to make sure I am seeing the right thing, especially if I am going to try to make them better!!!

My next question, do I cull chicks that don\'t seem to have any lacing???  For example my SLW  don\'t get there lacing until they are 12-14 weeks???

Another things I want to say about the chicks that are just feathering they look lavender???? but some of them have the darker head????  These are from eggs that I had shipped to me.  Could the blacks maybe have been splits bred to blues and now I got semi-blues???  I can\'t call them self-blue or laced blue.  I might call them CULL!
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Mike Gilbert on April 27, 2012, 08:33:32 AM
Maybe ten years ago I would have considered that to be lacing.  Not any more, but it\'s not too bad edging.   Look up the Blue Andalusians on Feathersite.com for a comparisonj.  I would give these chicks some time.  Not sure what you mean by \"100%\" blue?  All true blues are hetero for Bl.
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: John on April 27, 2012, 09:26:22 AM
I think it is interesting that everyone is quiet about trying to get true lacing on blue wheatens. :D  
As I read the Standard, I guess it doesn\'t\' matter...
Quote
BREAST: Blue, preferably laced with dark blue.

I think they could drop the part about \"laced\", since it can\'t be done and still maintain the wheaten pattern...based on what is accepted genetic science as of today.
History shows what is accepted one day is sometimes proved wrong (my disclaimer). :stare:
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: heatherscooby77 on April 27, 2012, 10:10:22 AM
Mike, I mean it is not crossed out with any other breed.  Sorry for the confusion :-)
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Christie Rhae on April 27, 2012, 01:39:51 PM
Well....
Here are my thoughts:

Ml/Ml Melanotic enhances and shifts black pigment to the edges of the feather.  This equals \"edging\".  There are some birds with very nice edging.

Co/Co Pg/Pg Ml/Ml equals \"Lacing\" (for our project).

I have seen birds, like andalusians, that traditionally have the lacing genes but their lacing looks worse than those with \"edging\".  
I had a discussion with someone about their andalusians.  The birds did not have any lacing at all.  But this person insisted that because andalusians have lacing that this bird had lacing.  I guess people do not understand that it does not come as a package.  Just because andalusians are supposed to have lacing does not mean they DO.  

So I guess we are back to the beginning.  For this project we must find the very best specimens we can of each breed.  The lacing on the bird we choose as our cross in must be very crisp black and shiny.

SOP says:
Quote
each feather distinctly laced with glossy black

I think a key word there is \"distinctly\".  

I guess if one starts with an bird that is obviously Ml/Ml and breed that with a bird that is Co/Co Pg/Pg Ml/Ml  then at least the Ml will be homozygous (my big word...heehee) on both sides and the offspring will have Ml/Ml instead of getting Ml/ml+.

This is my favorite quote right now...
Quote
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense


So, personally I don\'t find \"The Contrarian Viewpoint\" to be particularly convincing.  Thanks for participating though! It was interesting.  ;)
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: grisaboy on April 27, 2012, 10:47:37 PM
Quote from: Christie Rhae

So, personally I don\'t find \"The Contrarian Viewpoint\" to be particularly convincing.  


Ha! if I was more convincing it wouldn\'t be a contrarian viewpoint.

You\'ll be able to determine the results for yourself soon enough.  

Curtis
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: grisaboy on April 28, 2012, 10:08:51 AM

Here is another site to check out.
http://www.feathersite.com/Poultry/CGA/Brahma/BRKBrahma.html

This is the Brahma page from Feathersite.
Lots of impressive birds with various laced and columbian pattern birds.
There are two beautiful blue colmbian hens down toward the bottom of the page.  Especially check out the pattern on the hackles.  What would be the genetic make up of these birds?
My guess would be e^b Co Pg
What would they look like if you replaced e^b with E^R?

What about the \'Blue Partridge\' Brahmas? They look like Blue Dark Brahmas to me.  What happened to their lacing?
Are they e^b Pg?
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: grisaboy on April 28, 2012, 10:16:40 AM
Quote from: John

I think they could drop the part about \"laced\", since it can\'t be done and still maintain the wheaten pattern...based on what is accepted genetic science as of today.


Here is another link.
http://www.greenerpasturesfarm.com/ameraucanachickens.html
Check out the cockerel about halfway down the page.
Looks like someone has gotten pretty close to acheiving the impossible (based on accepted genetic science).

Curtis
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Mike Gilbert on April 28, 2012, 11:45:50 AM
Quote from: grisaboy
Quote from: John

I think they could drop the part about \"laced\", since it can\'t be done and still maintain the wheaten pattern...based on what is accepted genetic science as of today.


Here is another link.
http://www.greenerpasturesfarm.com/ameraucanachickens.html
Check out the cockerel about halfway down the page.
Looks like someone has gotten pretty close to acheiving the impossible (based on accepted genetic science).

Curtis


I knew that type of breast coloring was possible on a blue wheaten male, because I\'ve seen it in the bantams.   Very nice.   And it provides another good argument as to why we need more work on the existing varieties instead of going off in about 20 different directions.  Can you imagine a class of about ten cockerels at a show that look like this one, only mature?   Wow!
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Mike Gilbert on April 28, 2012, 11:50:57 AM
Quote from: grisaboy

Here is another site to check out.
http://www.feathersite.com/Poultry/CGA/Brahma/BRKBrahma.html

This is the Brahma page from Feathersite.
Lots of impressive birds with various laced and columbian pattern birds.
There are two beautiful blue colmbian hens down toward the bottom of the page.  Especially check out the pattern on the hackles.  What would be the genetic make up of these birds?
My guess would be e^b Co Pg
What would they look like if you replaced e^b with E^R?

What about the \'Blue Partridge\' Brahmas? They look like Blue Dark Brahmas to me.  What happened to their lacing?
Are they e^b Pg?


Curtis, the Blue Columbians would not have Pg.  They would be eb/eb, Co/Co, Bl/bl, and possibly Ml/Ml or a similar gene to get that good hackle, tail, and wing coloring.

The Blue Partridge Brahmas are just eb/eb, Pg/Pg, Bl/bl; they lack Co and Db.    You can find partial genotypes for a good number of color patterns on the Sellers website.    Sellers gives a genotype for Blue Andalusians of E/E, Pg/Pg, Co/Co, Ml/Ml, Bl/bl.  I\'m reasonably sure the same pattern could be made on E^R/E^R, in fact it may be preferable as you could get better lacing in the tails.   You know, this is the type of discussion I for one envisioned years ago when the club was named the Ameraucana Breeders Club.   Thanks, everyone, for participating.  It makes for a more thought provoking discussion than the mindless chatter seen all too often on some message boards.
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: grisaboy on April 28, 2012, 04:39:28 PM
Mike,  I like this kind of discussion too.  I find this stuff fascinating.  I\'m surprised that there have not been more diffinitive studies done to actually prove out these theories.  I know that when you crossed buff with brown red to make black gold you hade some buff columbian birds segregate out.
That is to be expected since buff birds carry columbian.  I would think that if Blue birds carried Columbian you would get columbian type segregants when they were crossed to wheaton to make the blue wheatons. I have not heard of this happening.

I think Blue Andalusians would be E^R/E^R, Pg/Pg, Ml/Ml, Bl/bl. I think the Columbian gene is too much of a eumalenin restrictor to make a solid blue background.  If you add Columbian to the above genetic fomula you would get a silver or gold single laced bird.  I still think the key to good blue lacing is the melanotic genes.  I think there are more than one melanotic gene that affects the intensity of the lacing.
I did find a reference that agrees with me, at least on the Columbian part.  I have questions about this study though because it also questions the role of the columbian gene in the single laced and double laced patterns which I do think is pretty well established.  


Title: Further study on the plumage pattern of the Blue Andalusian breed.
Personal Authors: Campo, J. L., Alvarez, C.
Author Affiliation: Departamento de Producción Animal, Area de Mejora Genética, Instituto Nacional de Investigaciones Agrarias, Apartado 8.111, 28080 Madrid, Spain.
Editors: No editors
Document Title: Poultry Science

Abstract:

Results of crosses between Blue Andalusian [female][female] and Brown (eb/eb) tester [male][male] showed that the Andalusian stock was E/E and did not carry a columbian-type gene. This fact was further verified by the cross between Blue Andalusian [male][male] and Melanotic Prat (eWh/eWh Co/Co Ml/Ml) [female][female]. It is suggested that the Bl/bl+ genotype is effective in changing black to blue pigment when only 1 eumelanising gene is present in the genetic background, but it is ineffective in the presence of 2 different genes producing eumelanin simultaneously. With an E/E genotype, Bl/bl+ does not change black pigment to blue in the areas where the melanotic (Ml) or lacing (Lg) genes produce black pigment; this results in the laced plumage pattern of the Blue Andalusian (E/E Bl/Bl+Ml-Lg/Ml-Lg). On a non-E/E genetic background, a single dosage of Bl changes the black pigment to blue in the presence of the melanotic or lacing genes. Double-laced phenotypes were not found in either cross; the role of Co in double and single-laced patterns is therefore questionable. Linkage between Ml and Lg was estimated to be 12.2±2.1%.

Curtis
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: KevinK1962 on April 28, 2012, 05:19:57 PM
Quote from: grisaboy
Quote from: John

I think they could drop the part about \"laced\", since it can\'t be done and still maintain the wheaten pattern...based on what is accepted genetic science as of today.


Here is another link.
http://www.greenerpasturesfarm.com/ameraucanachickens.html
Check out the cockerel about halfway down the page.
Looks like someone has gotten pretty close to acheiving the impossible (based on accepted genetic science).

Curtis


I agree with John about lacing on wheaten.
The bird in that pic does not have lacing, it has edging. The only way one might make proper lacing on the blue wheaten males would be to run separate cock breeding & pullet breeding pens. Krys
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: KevinK1962 on April 28, 2012, 05:48:05 PM
Quote from: grisaboy
I would think that if Blue birds carried Columbian you would get columbian type segregants when they were crossed to wheaton to make the blue wheatons. I have not heard of this happening.


Are there any blue Ameraucanas with proper black lacing as in correct Andalusians?

Quote from: grisaboy
I think Blue Andalusians would be E^R/E^R, Pg/Pg, Ml/Ml, Bl/bl. I think the Columbian gene is too much of a eumalenin restrictor to make a solid blue background.  If you add Columbian to the above genetic fomula you would get a silver or gold single laced bird.

 
If one adds Co to the above genotype, one would not get silver or gold laced bird because Co expresses differently on E & ER than it does on the other e-alleles. If one added homozygous Co & Db to the above genotype one would get blue laced silver or gold. BTW there is linkage between Pg, Ml (& Db). Hope this makes sense. Krys
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: John on April 28, 2012, 09:40:05 PM
Quote
John said:

I think they could drop the part about \"laced\", since it can\'t be done and still maintain the wheaten pattern...based on what is accepted genetic science as of today.

 
Quote

Here is another link.
http://www.greenerpasturesfarm.com/ameraucanachickens.html
Check out the cockerel about halfway down the page.
Looks like someone has gotten pretty close to achieving the impossible (based on accepted genetic science).

Curtis


Curtis,
It is nice edging, but really not laced or as the guys in the shop used to say \"close, but no cigar\".
When you add the  columbian (Co) gene to a eWh, e+ or eb based bird it takes the black out of the breast.  It doesn\'t have the same affect on E or ER.  Db is also a columbian restrictor and is powerful enough to remove the black breast color of ER males.
If Co is needed for true lacing, then true lacing can\'t be achieved on the wheaten patterned varieties because Co changes the breast color.
Check it out on the Kip Plug-In Calculator (http://kippenjungle.nl/kruisingKipFlex.html?DATA=S;Kip Plug-in Calculator;gallus;F;kipkiezer_bestanden/;JPG;1,G;H;Silky;;,G;F;Frizzle;;,G;Na;Naked Neck;;,G;Hf;Henny Feathering;;,G;Cp;Creeper;;,G;Pti;Foot Feathering (simplified);;,G;V;Vulture Hocks;;,G;Mb;Muff Beard;;,G;Cr;Crest;;,G;Et;EarTuft;;,G;Rp;Rumplessness;;,G;D;Duplex Comb;;,G;Bd;Breda Combless;;,G;R;Rosecomb;;,G;P;Peacomb;;,A;H;H+;;;D;;W;,A;H;h;;Zijdevederig;R;;;,A;F;F;;Krulvederig semilethaal;H;Krulvederig;;,A;F;f+;;;H;;W;,A;Na;Na;;Naakthals;H;Naakthals EF;;,A;Na;na+;;;H;;W;,A;Hf;Hf;;Hennevederig;H;Hennevederig EF;;,A;Hf;hf+;;;H;;W;,A;Cp;Cp;;Kortbenig LETHAAL;H;Kortbenig;;,A;Cp;cp+;;;H;;W;,A;Pti;Pti;;Voetbevedering;D;;;,A;Pti;pti+;;;H;;W;,A;V;V+;;;D;;W;,A;V;v;;Gierhakken;R;;;,A;Mb;Mb;;Baard;H;klein Baardje;;,A;Mb;mb+;;;H;;W;,A;Cr;Cr;;Kuif;H;kleine Kuif;;,A;Cr;cr+;;;H;;W;,A;Et;Et;;Oortoeven lethaal?;H;Oortoeven;;,A;Et;et+;;;H;;W;,A;Rp;Rp;;Staartloos lethaal?;H;Staartloos;;,A;Rp;rp+;;;H;;W;,A;D;D^v;;V-vorm Dubbel;D;;;,A;D;d+;;;H;;W;,A;Bd;Bd+;;;D;;W;,A;Bd;bd;;Kamloos;R;;E;,A;R;R;;Rozekammig;D;;;,A;R;r+;;niet-rozekam;R;;W;,A;P;P;;Erwtenkammig;D;;;,A;P;p+;;niet-erwtenkam;R;;W;,C;RP;Rozekammig;Erwtenkammig;Walnootkammig;,C;RP;niet-rozekam;niet-erwtenkam;Enkelkammig;,C;RM;niet-rozekam;;;,C;RM;niet-erwtenkam;;;,C;NVL;;;Enkelkammig;)...
I had a problem with Co a few years ago when I first got into partridge Chanteclers.  They are eb and most males had reddish breasts instead of the required black.  I think I have most of the Co bred out of my stain.  I kept breeding from only males with the most black breasts.  
Buffs have Co.  They are based on eWh (some on eb), but don\'t have black breasts like the wheaten variety based on wheaten (eWh) because they have/are Co.
One reason I\'ve always suggested using wheatens to improve buffs, but not the other way around is one way you just have to add the extra genes to get a buff variety and the other way you would have to try to breed out several genes...which can be done, but much more work in my estimation.

Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Christie Rhae on April 29, 2012, 12:52:19 AM
Ok guys, it is going to take me weeks to sift through these posts until they make sense in my brain.
 I love it!
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: grisaboy on April 29, 2012, 11:05:46 AM
Actually you guys are helping me make my point.
My point is that you don\'t necessarily need Co or Db to make Laced blue bird.
You can\'t get Co or Db on a blue wheaton and yet that cockerel a had a link to has pretty good lacing.  
This idea of edging vs lacing kind of reminds me of the argument that pops up from time to time about light blue vs dark blue.  Usually there are many other issues (Like lacing) that are more important than the shade of blue.
the same is true with lacing or edging.  The standard says in the glossary section that lacing is \"A border of contrasting color around the entire web of a feather. Should be very distinct, uniform in width, and usually moderately narrow.\"  What you guys are calling edging fits this definition.  The standard does not say that you have to have Co or Db to get this border.
Let me show you a couple of other links of blue birds with \"edging\" but do not have Co or Db.  I would not hesitate to show either of these birds as laced.  But they don\'t meet your definition.

This first one is a blue wyandotte.
http://www.poultrymatters.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=140

Most blue wyandottes are e^b so they can maintain the yellow legs.  I can\'t see the legs in this picture but i would bet a dolloar that she doesn\'t have any Co or Db in her genetic map.

Check out this lemon blue game
http://www.feathersite.com/Poultry/Games/BRKGames.html

You can call that edging if you want but if get Lemon Blue Modern Game with lacing like that, you can bet that I will have her in a show room somewhere.  I would guess her genetic make up is E^RE^R Blbl probably some melanizers but not what you would have in a silver laced wyandotte because it would cover up that lemon neck lacing. I guarantee there is no Co or Db in that bird.

Curtis
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: John on April 29, 2012, 12:25:49 PM
Check out post #18 for what I\'m referring to as \"true\" lacing...
http://www.backyardchickens.com/t/622472/best-looking-blue-chickens/10
That bird has what it takes and I assume that includes Co.
Some of us have shown blue Ameraucanas without lacing for decades.  Some looked pretty good...the birds not the exhibitors. ;)
 
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: grisaboy on April 29, 2012, 01:05:42 PM
That Blue Andalusian hen is awesome.  No doubt that is the ideal that we are all shooting for.  That Blue Andalusian Rooster higher up on the page sure isn\'t much to crow abut.  Just goes to show that it makes a difference what strain of Andalusians you use.

Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Christie Rhae on April 29, 2012, 01:07:53 PM
John, post number 18...  THAT is what I am talking about!   lol

That is the lacing that I want.  What a beautiful bird.  You just cannot get that with Ml alone.

  Here is a link to the breeders site that I am trying to get andalusians from.  He has sent me new pics too but I do not have authority to post them.
gg.cochinsrule.com (http://gff.cochinsrule.com/photopage.htm)  Go to the PRESERVATION BREEDS tab.
Previously I have not posted exactly where I am trying to get my andalusians from because this breeder actually says on his signature on BYC that he is not selling chicks or eggs.  I guess he has pity on me and is trying to help me get some andalusians so is willing to work with Hawaii to get permits, etc. He looks like he has been doing this awhile. Some of you may know him?  

What ever these birds have that is making their feathers look like that...I want that in my blue ameraucanas.  
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: grisaboy on April 29, 2012, 01:18:54 PM
Quote from: John
Check out post #18 for what I\'m referring to as \"true\" lacing...
http://www.backyardchickens.com/t/622472/best-looking-blue-chickens/10
That bird has what it takes and I assume that includes Co.
Some of us have shown blue Ameraucanas without lacing for decades.  Some looked pretty good...the birds not the exhibitors. ;)
 


If you had this Blue Andalusian hen, what cross would you make to prove that she carries the CO gene?
Assume that she is E^R CO plus all of the other stuff but we only want to prove CO in this mating.

Curtis

Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Christie Rhae on April 29, 2012, 01:21:53 PM
Quote from: grisaboy
Quote from: John
Check out post #18 for what I\'m referring to as \"true\" lacing...
http://www.backyardchickens.com/t/622472/best-looking-blue-chickens/10
That bird has what it takes and I assume that includes Co.
Some of us have shown blue Ameraucanas without lacing for decades.  Some looked pretty good...the birds not the exhibitors. ;)
 


If you had this Blue Andalusian hen, what cross would you make to prove that she carries the CO gene?
Assume that she is E^R CO plus all of the other stuff but we only want to prove CO in this mating.

Curtis



Who cares!  What ever it is we want it!  lol  Joke...
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: John on April 29, 2012, 03:38:36 PM
Quote
What ever it is we want it!


Carefoot in 1988 says yes to Co.
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00071668808417040#preview

Compo in 1991 says no to Co.  FYI, he uses Lg (Lacing gene) rather than Pg (Pattern gene).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2017404

Both of those studies found the birds were based on E, but Okimoto did a study with hatchery birds and found them to mostly be ER.
http://www.edelras.nl/chickengenetics/mutations1.html
Quote
Further research by Dr Okimoto (quote from Classroom @ The Coop: Blue & E/ or ER/, posted May 02, 2006) ......
 Some of us speculated that Andalusian blue used ER instead of E because ER would be more amenable to secondary pattern genes like Pg. I recently tested some Andalusian Blues from McMurray. I had a mixed batch of chicks so I could only tell the gray ones as blues the blacks could have been something else. There were three gray chicks that produced gray chick feathers. Two were homozygous ER ER and the third was heterozygous E ER. My guess is that E probably causes the dark birds and that the show quality birds are probably ER.


Does anyone have links to newer studies?
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: grisaboy on April 29, 2012, 05:06:08 PM
Quote from: Christie Rhae


Who cares!  What ever it is we want it!  lol  Joke...


YOU care.  Otherwise you would not have done the research that you have on the lacing feather patterns.  Anyone can select the best laced Andalusians and cross to black or blue Ameraucanas and then select for the best laced offspring.  But by the nature of your posts it\'s obvious that you are striving to learn more about this stuff and understand it. You also listed a quote, something about not believing what you are told or hear but following your own understanding. If that\'s not someone who cares about finding out about this for yourself, I don\'t know who is.

Why does it matter?  Because if we are content to follow the common wisdom, we won\'t strive to develop varieties like lemon blue modern games with dark blue lacing or blue wheaton ameraucanas with laced blue breasts because common wisdom tells us it is not genetically possible.

Curtis
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Christie Rhae on April 29, 2012, 05:30:22 PM
lol, yes I actually am fascinated.
In my real life I own a salon and do nails...my alter ego wants to be a chicken geneticist.   :rolleyes:

I find the whole subject very daunting.  But by taking little chunks and studying a lot about it I am able to actually understand.  
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: grisaboy on April 30, 2012, 09:43:54 AM
Quote from: Christie Rhae
 Here is a link to the breeders site that I am trying to get andalusians from.  He has sent me new pics too but I do not have authority to post them.
gg.cochinsrule.com (http://gff.cochinsrule.com/photopage.htm)  Go to the PRESERVATION BREEDS tab.


Christie,
Those are very nice blue Andalusians. They should give you a great start.  Are you planning to keep a breeding pen of these is addition to using them to improve the Ameraucanas? Notice that the pens are set up blue on blue.  I think a lot of Andalusian breeders do this so they can be sure they are setting up their breeding pens with the best lacing.  Of course you will get the typical black/blue/splash ratio when the chicks hatch.  But probably a good strategy to follow when setting up breeding pens for blue Ameraucanas.
(I really like what i can see of their breeding pen set up.)
Curtis
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Mike Gilbert on April 30, 2012, 12:25:56 PM
Great color on some of those Andalusians.  I sure hope we can see that in Ameraucanas some day.   By the way, is that Tom Roebuck\'s site?  He is a well known breeder of buff in several breeds.
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Mike Gilbert on April 30, 2012, 12:30:36 PM
Quote from: KevinK1962
Quote from: grisaboy
Quote from: John

I think they could drop the part about \"laced\", since it can\'t be done and still maintain the wheaten pattern...based on what is accepted genetic science as of today.


Here is another link.
http://www.greenerpasturesfarm.com/ameraucanachickens.html
Check out the cockerel about halfway down the page.
Looks like someone has gotten pretty close to acheiving the impossible (based on accepted genetic science).

Curtis


I agree with John about lacing on wheaten.
The bird in that pic does not have lacing, it has edging. The only way one might make proper lacing on the blue wheaten males would be to run separate cock breeding & pullet breeding pens. Krys


I would be in favor of changing the wording in the Standards to reflect the wording \"distinct edging of dark blue\" instead of the present \"lacing\".   The picture in the link shows what I had in mind when the standard was first written, but we didn\'t have the advantage of sharing genetic knowledge via the internet in those days.
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Christie Rhae on May 01, 2012, 07:56:54 PM
Quote from: Mike Gilbert
Great color on some of those Andalusians.  I sure hope we can see that in Ameraucanas some day.   By the way, is that Tom Roebuck\'s site?  He is a well known breeder of buff in several breeds.


Well that is weird.  I could have sworn I responded but now I do not see my post anywhere...

Yes that is Tom Roebuck\'s site.  He has been very helpful with info about Andalusians and is willing to send me eggs in a live chick box next time.

I thought you guys might know who he is, he seems to have been breeding and showing birds for awhile.  

After spending so much time studying andalusians and how hard it is to get them I hope to keep a small flock of pure andalusians.  They have grown on me.  lol
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: heatherscooby77 on May 11, 2012, 12:23:23 AM
Pic 1, so this is edging?
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: heatherscooby77 on May 11, 2012, 12:24:07 AM
Is this lacing?
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: heatherscooby77 on May 11, 2012, 12:25:50 AM
Just a cute pic of one of the peeps.  I am trying not to get attached until I know they are staying!!!
Title: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: heatherscooby77 on May 11, 2012, 12:34:20 AM
I have 20 Blue Andalusians due to hatch on 05/22/12.  Hopefully all goes well, and I get some good lacing!!!  I got my new bator, no more still air little giants!!!  My hatch rates were terrible.  0-50%   I tried everything I could think of.  It was the bators, coupled with my inability to control things as well as I wanted to.  Hope everyone else is doing well in the fight for lacing......
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: OldChurchEggery on May 14, 2012, 08:45:30 AM
Quote from: Mike Gilbert
Great color on some of those Andalusians.  I sure hope we can see that in Ameraucanas some day.   By the way, is that Tom Roebuck\'s site?  He is a well known breeder of buff in several breeds.

Well that is weird.  I could have sworn I responded but now I do not see my post anywhere...

Yes that is Tom Roebuck\'s site.  He has been very helpful with info about Andalusians and is willing to send me eggs in a live chick box next time.

I thought you guys might know who he is, he seems to have been breeding and showing birds for awhile. 

After spending so much time studying andalusians and how hard it is to get them I hope to keep a small flock of pure andalusians.  They have grown on me.  lol
Tom is about as nice as can be. He writes our newsletter at the Virginia Poultry Breeders Association and is always friendly and outgoing at our meetings. I hope you can find what you're looking for because this sounds like such an interesting project!
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Chicklover on May 15, 2012, 02:10:58 AM
I have finally finish with the breeding of the blue/black Ameraucana's. I will be starting on the lacing project next. I finally got another chick from Steve Jones and looks to be a male. I will give the girls a few weeks to get cleaned out from the other Cock and then I will put the Andalusian on them. Hope to start seeing the first F1 in med to end of June. Will post pics when they start hatching.
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Christie Rhae on May 15, 2012, 04:17:11 AM
I am hatching my first batch of ameraucana x andalusian chicks right now.  So far 3 blues and one splash.  The parents of these birds are not fabulous examples of the breeds so they will probably all be culls eventually but I hope to learn something in the process. 
Just waiting to get better birds..  Sometimes I wish I could just get all the birds I want right away...  but then I remind myself to relish the process.  It will be so sweet someday when I have amazing laced blue ameraucanas.   8)
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Christie Rhae on May 15, 2012, 02:41:38 PM
*insert excited squeal*   
Tom Roebuck is applying for the import permit to ship me eggs in a live chick box.  Time to start holding my breath again!!  Oh please oh please let these eggs make it.   ;D

I just ordered another hovobator. I have 2 that I incubate in and one lil giant that I hatch in.  But this hatch that I have going right now the temps swung wildly and humidity will not stay up.  I go to bed with the humidity at 65% and wake up to it at 40%.  I had two chicks that were mostly zipped but then dried out and could not make it the rest of the way.  I had even installed a fan in the thing but I am just not impressed at all.  When I hatch in a hovobator everything stays perfect...no monkeying with the temp knob, adding water all the time.  Maybe I will use the lil giant for them to finish getting their strength before I pop the chicks into my brooder. 

By the time I get my fourth styro bator I could easily have bought one of those awesome cabinet incubators...if only they did not want to charge me 450.00 in shipping!!! 

I have an old mini fridge that I am thinking of turning into an incubator...but I am intimidated by that project.  One of these days....

Anyhow...just had to share...   blue andalusian eggs from Tom Roebuck... weeeeeeee!!    ::)
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Christie Rhae on May 25, 2012, 02:34:04 PM
Whoop!!  I am now the proud owner of black ameraucana chicks from Mr. John Blehm!  My awesome andalusian eggs should ship no later that June 7th.  By this time next year I will be hatching F1's like crazy!!   lol..   good thing I ain't in no rush!   ;D

(and wheaten chicks...  :) )
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Christie Rhae on June 08, 2012, 12:40:56 AM
I got more blue andalusian eggs!  Tom Roebuck sent me 32 eggs in a live chick box in the hopes that if they were in a box marked "live birds" they would be handled better.  I candled them all before setting them and not a single scrambled air cell.  I have a good feeling about these eggs.

I am having an extremely busy summer with work, kids, family, garden, animals and don't seem to have much time for the computer lately.  I cannot believe I just wrote that.  lol   

So if no one hears from me don't worry, I am still alive.   

My awesome chicks from John Blehm are growing fast...hopefully I will have andalusian chicks in 3 weeks.   My schedule should waaay slow down in August.

Talk to ya all later!
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Chicklover on June 08, 2012, 01:14:16 PM
Just candle the first of my F1 for this project looking good should have some here in about 10 days. The next batch is a week after that and the third batch is going in in about 3 days.
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Christie Rhae on June 16, 2012, 12:28:40 AM
Just candle the first of my F1 for this project looking good should have some here in about 10 days. The next batch is a week after that and the third batch is going in in about 3 days.

That is awesome. Post pics when they hatch so we can see their chick down phenotype??
My andalusian eggs from Tom Roebuck have lots of veins and swimmer.  Crossing fingers!
My black chicks from John Blehm are growing like crazy.  They are at that goofy gangly stage.  I put them into an outside pen today.  Gotta clear out room in my brooder for the andalusians!  Again.. crossing fingers.  :oD
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Chicklover on June 16, 2012, 07:30:35 PM
The first chick is picking thru and I will have 3 more batches over the next 3 weeks. Will post pics when they get here.
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Christie Rhae on July 01, 2012, 03:18:32 PM
I have blue andalusians!!  Omg...6 months of working on it and finally have some in my possession.  Now to let them grow up THEN I can start on this project... sheesh...
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Beth C on July 02, 2012, 09:55:39 AM
Yay!! Congratulations! :)
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Chicklover on July 03, 2012, 08:39:50 AM
I have the first of the F1 on this project. 1 that is a week old and 4 that are just a day old. I will be posting pic later today on this but they appear to have more white or cream on them then normal. The week old chick is out of Blue Andalusion Cockeral on a Blue Ameracana hen. The second batch are from a Black Ameracana Cock on Slash Andalusion pullets and some from the first group also.  I have more to hatch on Sunday for the next 4 weeks. Off to a good start. Hoping for some pullets in the group.
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Chicklover on July 04, 2012, 12:17:12 PM
Here are some of the F1 pictures from Black Ameraucana  Cock on Slash Andalusions  pullets and from a Blue Ameraucana Hen on a Blue Andalusion.
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Christie Rhae on July 06, 2012, 01:12:09 AM
Awesome!  I might be there in 7 months.  lol
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Christie Rhae on August 10, 2012, 07:45:05 PM
Blue Andalusian update:
Here are some of my andalusian chicks!  They are 6 weeks old.  I thought I would post these pics so that we can see what 6 week old chicks look like that are carrying all the pattern genes that we want in our laced blue ameraucanas.
One day far in the future I hope to be hatching blue ameraucanas that will have this awesome lacing.
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Chicklover on August 12, 2012, 04:58:31 PM
Here are a few pics of the F1's from my Ameraucana's and Andalusions. Hope to have F2's in January
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: heatherscooby77 on August 27, 2012, 12:17:30 AM
This is what I got when I hatched some Blue Andalusians.  I scrapped the whole hatch.  I don't want the hens passing red leakage onto their sons.  I kept one hen and put her in my egg flock.  Going to use Silver Laced Wyandottes.  I have had some for years.  I actually have some crosses already.  I will cross brother and sister in the spring.  I am trying to find a Silver Laced Cockerel/Cock to use this fall.  I am not having much luck.  I don't want to breed brother and sister.  I want to cross with opposite crosses to keep the genes fresh.  As soon as I can, I will get some pics of the crosses.  I have a black cockerel that has white "speckles" right now, and 2 pullets.  One is black the other is blue.  No sign of "speckles' yet.  I have this one hen that is old as dirt.  She is a SLW x Blue Andalusian cross.  She lays a pretty large pink egg.  She is black with a lot of white in her feathers.  I am thinking of putting her with my splash rooster, and seeing what happens???  I have some of the eggs in the incubator now actually now that I am thinking of it.  This hen, her name is Tippy lays an egg everyday!!!  I will see if I have any pics of her.
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: heatherscooby77 on August 27, 2012, 12:33:33 AM
This is Tippy.  Silver Laced Wyandotte x Blue Andalusian.
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Sharon Yorks on August 30, 2012, 07:21:15 PM
Here's a picture (I just took today) of one of my blue pullets. She was hatched March 15th so she is now 5 and a half months old. I'm happy to see she ended up with the color she has since she was pretty dark the first 4 months. Thank you, Paul, for teaching me not to be too quick to judge them before 5-6 months old.
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: far149 on August 30, 2012, 08:09:32 PM
To my novice eye it looks like you've got a pretty good pullet there, Sharon.
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: heatherscooby77 on August 31, 2012, 12:32:41 AM
Sharon she is beautiful!  I am taking notice that the hens with the darkest head seam to have the best edging/lacing.  I have a pullet that looks a lot like yours color wise and, I am very thrilled with her.
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Sharon Yorks on August 31, 2012, 08:32:05 AM
Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Here's a picture of one that didn't. When this one hatched, she was the weirdest color; almost like a mix between a grey and a splash. I had marked the egg so I knew which pullet she was out of (a black and it was her first hatched chick) so I kept the chick to see what she was going to turn out to be. She is one of the most sociable and friendliest chicks I have and almost every single person who has come to buy birds has asked to buy her because of her color. She's an April 21st chick so she may still change some. I'm still working on my recipes to create a masterpiece  :) 
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: heatherscooby77 on August 31, 2012, 10:27:35 AM
Sharon, she is nice too!  I have a youngster that started out like that.  I thought she was going to be a splash, she is ice blue, with darker blue edging.  Its not black.  I going to see what she will make???  I love my chickens :-)
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Sharon Yorks on August 31, 2012, 09:20:23 PM
Thanks, Heather! I'd love to see pictures of yours. I really love my chickens, too...and spend wayyyy too much time with them. We should start another topic and label it "Chic Pics" and maybe some other members will post some pictures. Kind of like pulling out your wallet and showing pictures of your family.
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: heatherscooby77 on September 01, 2012, 01:42:28 AM
I know I spend way to much time with mine.  Now that my daughter has gone to school, I have conversations with them!  I just have a hard time getting good pics.  I have an iphone 3G, not the best pics.  They are also smeary because the ladies are camera shy.  I have had chickens for years, since I was a kid, but I only have had Ameraucanas for 3 years now.  They are by far my favorite!  Especially blues.
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: heatherscooby77 on September 04, 2012, 11:05:23 PM
I have a genetics question.  I am no good with the chicken calculator.  I have not had the time to figure it out.  I have a cockerel that is out of a Blue AM rooster x SLW hen.  He has the nice beetle green sheen, but his speckles are cream...............  I thought any color that would be added to him would be white?????  Should I keep him or not?  How did this happen?
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Zach_Rose on September 07, 2012, 12:48:54 AM
By speckles, are you referring to the center of the feather. One thing to remember is your blues carry either solve or gold the mix of the two would cause the cream, so it is possible that your blues carry gold.
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Mike Gilbert on September 07, 2012, 07:35:59 AM
By speckles, are you referring to the center of the feather. One thing to remember is your blues carry either solve or gold the mix of the two would cause the cream, so it is possible that your blues carry gold.

That would be my guess.   The Blue Ameraucana carries at least one copy of sex linked gold, and that is why your "speckles" that would otherwise be white are creamy.   The speckled cockerel would be split for silver and gold. 
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: heatherscooby77 on September 07, 2012, 08:44:42 AM
Thank you!  So  I don't want to use him because I would get some gold on solid blues that are also split?
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: John on September 07, 2012, 09:49:46 AM
Quote
but his speckles are cream...............
 
I'm lost and would love to see a photo.
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: heatherscooby77 on September 07, 2012, 03:40:52 PM
I will try and get one this weekend.   He is camera shy.  I have another one that I need to get pics of.  All I have is my cell phone right now, my "real" camera's battery died.  It is interesting.
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: heatherscooby77 on September 10, 2012, 05:37:36 PM
This is the best pic I could get.  I will keep trying to get a better one.  He is a Blue AM rooster X Silver Laced Wyandotte.
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: John on September 10, 2012, 07:31:40 PM
The thumbnail is clearer than the enlarged version.  I think I do see what you are calling speckles.
Thanks,
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: heatherscooby77 on September 10, 2012, 11:17:34 PM
For some reason I cannot get it to save while it is reduced.  I have done this for several other pics.  It just isn't working for this particular one.  So basically you can see that its a creamy golden color.  So I won't be using him?????????  I really want to work on this project.  I am not sure I know enough about it yet???  I am just going to keep meticulous records.  I will have a lot of research and reading to do this winter, before setting up next years breeding pens!
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: grisaboy on September 14, 2012, 02:56:52 PM
So basically you can see that its a creamy golden color.  So I won't be using him????????? 

If your objective is to get back to a solid blue (laced) bird, It shouldn't matter if it silver or gold or cream.  This should be covered by the blue color in future generations. You would want to eventually get rid of all silver or gold leakage and hopefully just keep the lacing.
Were any of the F1 (SLW X blue Am) blue? (with or without the speckles?)
In the next generation you would want to go F1 X F1.
But at least one of the F1's should be blue so you can carry the blue color through to the next generation.

Curtis
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: heatherscooby77 on September 14, 2012, 04:43:33 PM
I do have a blue hen.  I also have some chicks that hatched last week.  They are out of my splash rooster x SLW hens.  I will be very interested to see how they will feather out.  When they hatched they had correct blue and splash down.

I am not going to use the golden speckles for the project.  I have a black rooster without the speckles, and I am liking him more.  As of right now.  I am going to keep all of them for a while.  I need to do my research.  Thanks for the info.  It is so appreciated!
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Chicklover on September 18, 2012, 11:45:55 PM
So far the F1 from my Ameraucana and Andalusions I have seen that the tail carriage, leg size and comb are something that are going to need work. I believe that they will be easy to get back where I need then in the f3 and on once I get the genes for lacing set. The Lacing is look really good. I will post picks in a couple of days.
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: heatherscooby77 on October 02, 2012, 11:51:43 AM
I can't get the pictures right for the Forum.  I posted a pic on the BYC website. Along with my thoughts on the breedings.  You can see it at: 

http://www.backyardchickens.com/t/260313/ameraucana-thread-for-posting-pictures-and-discussing-our-birds/17890#post_9728167
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Christie Rhae on October 02, 2012, 02:05:37 PM
So far the F1 from my Ameraucana and Andalusions I have seen that the tail carriage, leg size and comb are something that are going to need work. I believe that they will be easy to get back where I need then in the f3 and on once I get the genes for lacing set. The Lacing is look really good. I will post picks in a couple of days.
Yes I agree once we get the lacing patterns then it will not be too hard to get back to Ameraucana.  I am hoping to see good results in F3 generation.  It is F2 that is going to take zillions of hatchings.   

Here are pics of some of my andalusians that are growing up.  I have 2 cockerels and 2 pullets that are blue.  I also have 2 splash cockerels and one black pullet.  I am very happy with them.  Of course my black ams from John Blehm are growing nicely.  Cant wait to start hatching in the spring!

Edit: lets not forget about the white earlobes.
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Christie Rhae on October 02, 2012, 02:11:18 PM
Sorry that pic is so small.  I have the picture larger if anyone would like to see close up detail of the lacing I can email it.
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: OldChurchEggery on October 04, 2012, 09:35:47 AM
Wow, those are really striking. I know it will be a while before you have chick pictures to share, but I look forward to seeing them.
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Christie Rhae on October 05, 2012, 01:42:36 AM
I discovered something today.  I thought I would examine my splash andalusians to see if I could see any evidence of lacing.  I found that one of my splash cockerels showed more evidence of lacing than the other.  Here are some close ups. (below)   The thing about these splash birds is that they are very likely carrying all the pattern genes so I am interested to see that there is some lacing showing.  This may be useful info in future breedings.

Here is a close up of one of my blue andalusian cockerels. They have not had their first molt yet so am excited to see how the 4 month old feathers look.
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Christie Rhae on October 05, 2012, 11:45:48 AM
Omg we have advice from the Andalusian master himself..Tom Roebuck!
He made a comment on BYC... Here it is
"
Christie,
I read back through a couple of your posts to where you stated what you had on hand and that you had separated ckls and pullets.

My recommendation as far as breeding matchups.  I'd try the following breedings.

Blue A ckl x Black Am pullets
Splash A ckl x Black Am pullets
Black Am Ckl x Blue A pullets

I am betting that your best lacing on the f1's will come from either the Blue A Ckl x Black Am pullets or the Splash A ckl x Black Am pullets.  The males usually drive the color/pattern tendancies.  I am also betting that you'll see better comb results in the matings with Ameraucana pullets vs. Ameraucana ckls.  I wouldn't be afraid of using the splash ckls either like you stated.  You'll get the greatest Blue yield from this breeding and they are carrying the pattern genetics.  Soundest Blue color will probably come from the Blue A x Black Am breeding.

Looking forward to seeing how the f1's turn out.
Tom"

I am printing this out and will use this advice for my first pairings.
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: OldChurchEggery on October 05, 2012, 01:08:15 PM
Hi Christie,

I heard from Tom this morning about our VPBA show and told him you'd been gushing on here about the birds you hatched from his stock. Maybe next year you can fly in for our show and we can all meet!  ;) Somehow I think a Hawaii-Virginia flight would be rough.  ::)

Good luck once again!

From: Tom Roebuck [mailto:goldenfeatherfarm@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2012 9:41 AM
To: Lawler, Erica M
Subject: Re: 2012 VPBA Show Catalog

Erica,
Clean up help would be awesome.  That picture is awesome. 
 
It took two tries getting eggs to Hawaii.  First bunch we shipped the way I ship eggs in the states normally.  That didn't work.  They probably were victims of rough handling and then may not have been in a temp controlled cabin on the plane.  The second batch I shipped in a lives box, but had to go through Hawaii Dept of Ag to get a permit and then make sure they understood that they were only eggs and not really live chickens.  Those went through great and she had a good hatch.  I am hoping she has good success getting the lacing.  Good breeding project!
 
Tom
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Christie Rhae on October 05, 2012, 01:30:50 PM
Lol! I am all geeked out!
I would love to attend a show one day. Ya never know!
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Chicklover on October 05, 2012, 09:56:19 PM
The lacing is looking great in the F1's and I am looking forward to breeding in the Spring. I have been told to breed the F1's back to the F1's to make sure to set the lacing genes. I know that this will cause the F2 to have more of the Andalusion genes but it will make the hatching a bit of challenge. When they hatch I will have to cull on comb first. Then keep the best comb's these I will breed back to the Ameraucana.
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Christie Rhae on October 05, 2012, 10:49:32 PM
I love to play with the kippen calculator thing.  Of course it is all just theory.
When I run it with F1 to F1 it seems like the odds are a lot higher to get the right set of genes.  When I run F1 back to laced andalusian parent the odds of getting blue, laced, beard, pea comb, blue egg is 2.64%.  (1.17% male, 1.17% female) with the likely hood being 1 in 86 birds to breed.

When I run the calculator with F1 to F1 the odds are way worse.  I don't really understand how that works.  It seems like it should be better odds.  The odds of correct genes are 0.02% with a minimum of 4096 to breed!!  Maybe I am using this thing wrong, maybe it is flawed. 

I think I may try it both ways.
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Chicklover on October 08, 2012, 11:32:10 PM
F1 Pictures of the first birds in the project.
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Christie Rhae on October 09, 2012, 12:12:06 AM
Very nice!  Thank you for sharing.  Cant wait till I have F1's.
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Zach_Rose on October 11, 2012, 10:37:01 PM
What is nice about breeding a splash and black is that all result offspring are blue. Instead of 50/50 with breeding blue and black. The problem is that you may end up with one bird having the perfect lacing gene combo, but it be black, and you possibly might not notice. Where as splash and black will throw all blue so you can pick out the best lacing, easily.
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Christie Rhae on October 12, 2012, 12:26:34 AM
Yes that is correct.. splash X Black makes all blue.  And in the parent generation if your splash for sure carries all the lacing genes then I think it is ok.  But in later generations that is part of the challenge with this project is that we really should only breed blue to blue because it is only in the blues that we will know for sure that the bird carries all the pattern genes.
I have read that people who breed blue andalusians only breed blue to blue.  This somehow affects the quality of the blue.  I am not near that stage yet so will not worry about it for awhile.
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Christie Rhae on November 03, 2013, 04:25:11 PM
Aloha!

My life got quadruple busy in the last year so I don't have much time for forums right now.  But I am still working with my birds!  Thought I would post a few pics of my F1 chicks.
I am very surprised how much lacing I have in this generation.  In the spring I will ask everyone's advice on the breeding for my F2 generation.

Hope you are all having a good year!
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Mike Gilbert on November 03, 2013, 05:18:40 PM
Looking good so far Christie.  Melanotic, Pattern Gene, and Columbian are all dominant, so lacing was to be expected the first generation.   The trick will be establishing purity of those so your blues breed true for color, while re-establishing good Ameraucana type.   If you still have nice blue and/or black Ameraucanas, I think I would put the best colored of these guys back over them.    Then the following year maybe mate the best colored and typed of the F2's together and raise a large number to select from.   Keep us posted.
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Christie Rhae on November 03, 2013, 06:21:41 PM
Thanks Mike!

Yes I do still have my blacks from John.  When I cull the black and poorly colored birds I will see how many decent laced pullets I have and maybe put a black Am cock over them. Or visa-versa...

I have two separate groups here.  I planned to keep them separate till F3 maybe.  Just learning as I go.

When I ran the kippen calculator for F1 generation I thought the lacing would be less complete looking. Maybe a little more like "edging" but some of these chicks have really nice lacing all the way to their legs!  I am pleasantly surprised.

edit:  guess that is what happens when you start with the best laced bird possible...and Tom Roebucks Andalusians were perfect!

 
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Don on November 04, 2013, 09:10:22 AM
Good to see you on the forum.  The birds look great and I'm glad your project is moving ahead.  I look forward to seeing these as they mature.  I think I see a couple of black males, did you raise many blue males in this cross?  Keep those pictures coming.
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: John on November 04, 2013, 05:59:35 PM
You've done your homework and are on the right track!  Don't be a stranger here.  I think we all understand life gets busier at times and hobbies, like breeding chickens, have to take a backseat for a while.  Thanks for the update.
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Christie Rhae on November 05, 2013, 03:36:49 PM
Aloha,

@ Don.. I ended up with more pullets than cockerels with visible lacing genes.  I have 30 chicks to sort through.  I have about 10 black ones. Some are blue but with not impressive lacing so they are getting canned as well.


@Mike,  I am worried that breeding F1's back to Ameraucana will lose my pattern genes.  I think right now they are all "split" for patterns (is that a correct term?  lol)  They have Pg/pg+, Ml/ml+, Co/co+  I assume...since the Andalusian parent seemed to carry the full set.  If I go back to Am now won't the pattern genes just disappear?  But if I go back to Andalusian...then I am even further from Ameraucana type.  Sigh...  I don't know what to do.   What if I bred the F1's to each other?  Then I would most likely get back to Pg/Pg, Ml/Ml, Co/Co but I guess then I will be possibly doubling up on things I don't want like straight combs, etc. 

Unless....Black Ameraucana carries Ml/Ml?   The kippen calculator lists Ameraucana as ml+/ml+.  If Ams have Ml/Ml then maybe that is what is helping this generation to have better lacing than I expected?  In that case maybe my chicks are Pg/pg+, Ml/Ml and going back to Ameraucana will not mess with the Melanotic genes.

Am I talking in circles? :o

Just stumped.  I suppose I am in no rush.  I could try all combinations and see what works best?  lol
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Christie Rhae on November 05, 2013, 03:51:05 PM
Ok I just ran the Kippen calc but inserted Ml/Ml for Ameraucanas.  I put F1 back with Ameraucana parent... then crossed those (is that F3 or some other letter?)  and that just made this project look WAY easier!  "Minimum animals to breed" is only 16...instead of the 4000 plus I usually come up with.  ::)
This is assuming John's black Ams carry Ml/Ml.

Intereeessting....

Thoughts anyone?
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Mike Gilbert on November 05, 2013, 06:26:42 PM
Ok I just ran the Kippen calc but inserted Ml/Ml for Ameraucanas.  I put F1 back with Ameraucana parent... then crossed those (is that F3 or some other letter?)  and that just made this project look WAY easier!  "Minimum animals to breed" is only 16...instead of the 4000 plus I usually come up with.  ::)
This is assuming John's black Ams carry Ml/Ml.
Intereeessting....Thoughts anyone?

Was not the Kippen calculator developed in Europe?   Where they have no Ameraucanas?   So how would they know?   As a matter of fact, short of DNA testing, how would anyone know?  I would not place a lot of trust in these on-line calculators once you get past the very basics.   I believe there is a lot of guesswork built into them.
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Christie Rhae on November 05, 2013, 07:21:55 PM


Was not the Kippen calculator developed in Europe?   Where they have no Ameraucanas?   So how would they know?   As a matter of fact, short of DNA testing, how would anyone know?  I would not place a lot of trust in these on-line calculators once you get past the very basics.   I believe there is a lot of guesswork built into them.

Yes I agree.  Do you think the calculations are accurate?  I mean after you sort of guess what genes your bird has and manually put that in? 

I can already tell that how things work out on paper is not always how they work in real life...just with my first generation.  Guess that's what makes it so interesting! 

Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: John on November 05, 2013, 08:36:01 PM
Christie,

I'm not saying it's perfect, but the Chicken Calculator  (http://kippenjungle.nl/kruising.html) that we are talking about was developed by Henk Meijers (http://kippenjungle.nl/Henk69_NL.html).  I don't know him personally, but from his postings on The Classroom @ The Coop's Genetics and Selective Breeding  (http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=3&page=1) forum I know that he knows more about poultry genetics than I will ever know.  He has updated the calculator as new genetic information is known/assumed.  I find it to be a handy tool, but as you said we are "sort of" guessing what genes our birds have and then enter into the calculator.       
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Russ on October 14, 2014, 08:25:00 PM
I was just wondering how this project is going? Have not heard much about it lately ???
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Max on October 15, 2014, 10:59:04 PM
I hope I'm not hijacking Christies thread.  She has the lead and hopefully has some F2's almost grown by now. I am about to get started on this project and just wanted to share some pics of my Andalusians. 
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Cesar “CJ” on March 09, 2015, 11:35:34 PM


Was not the Kippen calculator developed in Europe?   Where they have no Ameraucanas?   So how would they know?   As a matter of fact, short of DNA testing, how would anyone know?  I would not place a lot of trust in these on-line calculators once you get past the very basics.   I believe there is a lot of guesswork built into them.

Yes I agree.  Do you think the calculations are accurate?  I mean after you sort of guess what genes your bird has and manually put that in? 

I can already tell that how things work out on paper is not always how they work in real life...just with my first generation.  Guess that's what makes it so interesting!


Hi Chrisite, I was wondering if there was an update on your project. How did your F2 come out?
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Lee G on March 10, 2015, 12:59:21 PM
I'm not sure how I missed Max's post showing off his blue Andalusians, but oh lala...such exquisite lacing almost takes my breath away!  8)

I'm still searching for the right bird (and genes) to introduce lacing into my flock, but in the meantime will be living vicariously through all of you. Sure would be great to hear (and see) how everyone's lacing projects are coming along!  :D
Title: Re: Laced Blue Ameraucana
Post by: Cesar “CJ” on September 02, 2015, 11:36:38 PM
Is there any upadate about this topic. I know Cliff Redden is working on his too?