Ameraucana Breeders Club

The Official Forum of the Ameraucana Breeders Club => Ameraucana Marketplace => Topic started by: Guest on September 09, 2005, 06:21:43 PM

Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: Guest on September 09, 2005, 06:21:43 PM
Greetings Ameraucana folks - I was going to post this to Mike G., but then I was up here on the board so maybe broader inquiries will yield more feedback.

In doing some Standard revision research on the blue egg cousins the Araucanas, it was discovered that there is an apparent contradiction for Silver Ameraucanas between the ABA and APA descriptions.

Under the APA description for Silver Ameraucanas, it makes reference back to the Silver Leghorn description.  For males this indicates a silver hackle with black striping, and a silver saddle (no striping).  

Under the ABA description for the Silver pattern that is indicated for Ameraucana Bantams, that pattern (which the ABA also uses for Leghorn Bantams) calls for males that are black striped in the silver hackle, and the same color for the saddle.

APA calls for clear saddle, the ABA for a striped saddle.  

I would be interested to know what the Silver Ameraucana males look like in hackle and saddle, and whether the ABC participants feel one or the other is the \"correct\" description.  My own recollection of Silver Ameraucanas is that they tend to show some striping in the saddle, but that doesn\'t necessarily mean that striped saddles should be the ideal Standard color.

Thoughts?  Feedback?  It is clear that there is a contradiction between the ABA and APA, and the first place to inquire is of the breeders.

Sam Brush
Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: Mike Gilbert on September 09, 2005, 07:26:28 PM
Sam,

Are you also attempting to resolve the difference for the Leghorn breed?    My gut feeling is to go along with whatever is decided for leghorns, as it is supposed to be the same color pattern.    I believe they could be bred either way, it should be just a matter of selection over time.    Our main problem in the Ameraucanas is ridding the females of shafting, and if that problem is related to saddle color in the males (I don\'t know that it is or is not) then I would hate to commit to a position that prevented cleaning up the female\'s shafting problem.   No one I have spoken with seems to know much about eliminating shafting, including Dr. Okimoto who may be poultrydom\'s most respected color geneticist at the present time.   Your thoughts?   How about the rest of you members?

Mike Gilbert
Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: Guest on September 09, 2005, 10:26:22 PM

Well, I may comment..but I am not the best , as I am still vary new to poultry.
I have found 2 disctnct types of \"Silver\'s\", one is trhe silver duckwing, which is supposed to have a clear saddle, and even a nearly clear hackle, as well as th barring on the wing.
The other is just \"Silver\", this one is darker, and has deffinate striping in both the hakle and saddle...So am I maybe confusing thre terms??  What is the actual differance between \"Silver\" and \"Silver Duckwing\"?
 :thinking:
Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: Guest on September 10, 2005, 02:15:00 AM
Mike, originally the Leghorns were assigned the \"Silver Duckwing\" pattern and name, but somewhere along the way that was revised to what is essentially a silver version of the Brown Leghorn - with clear saddle color.  As you may have noted, the Leghorn proponents have a proposal to do the same with the Golden Duckwing Leghorn.  In discussions with one of the more noted Brown Leghorn breeders, who also has Silvers, his view was that the clear saddles have some link to female breast color among other things.  I will ask about the shafting.  At the Syracuse APA Annual I inquired of another Leghorn specialist and judge, who confirmed that the Leghorn standard for Silver was the clear silver saddled male, but then he proceeded to produce actual live Silver Leghorn Bantam males that had some saddle striping.  Pretty confusing.  The Dutch Bantams, which are  similar overall to the Leghorns, call for the Silver variant with striping in both saddle and hackle.  

There are two forms of Silver (clear saddle & striped hackle plus striped saddle and hackle) and it seems that there may be a need to tighten up a bit on which form is aligned with specific breeds with that variety.  So far the Leghorn folks seem to suggest that the clear saddled form is the legitimate one for at least Leghorns.  I need to line out all the male and female descriptions in comparison to see if there are other significant variations that might assist in the evaluation.

Sam Brush

Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: Guest on September 10, 2005, 02:18:30 AM
In response to McKee Fowl Farm\'s question, in addition to the apparent two forms of \"Silver\" in my prior post, there is the Silver Duckwing, which is distinguished by the clear hackle and saddle.  All three are obviously related in some fashion, and perhaps are just slightly different expressions.  In the duckwings, however, the press is for clear hackle and saddle in males, with little or no striping being considered the desired look.

Sam Brush
Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: Mike Gilbert on September 10, 2005, 10:04:02 PM
Sam,
What about the A.B.A. Standard?    Would that be changed then to conform with the A.P.A.\'s?    If you can find out any information at all about clearing up the shafting, we would be very grateful.    I will also discuss the saddle striping matter with other breeders of the silver variety at our upcoming national meet in Sedalia, MO, on October 15th.   Thanks.

Mike
Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: John on September 11, 2005, 12:39:49 PM
Quote
My gut feeling is to go along with whatever is decided for leghorns, as it is supposed to be the same color pattern.

Sounds like the way to go to me.

Sam,
Thanks for posting here so that all of us can beware of what\'s happening and have a chance to chime in.
Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: grisaboy on September 12, 2005, 03:30:59 PM
Hello Sam and everyone,
As long as we are discussing tweaking the standard for silver, I will thow around some more fat to chew on.  I agree with Mike that one of the biggest issues with silvers is the shafting in the females.   I don\'t agree that the standard should automatically call for the silver color to reference the silver leghorn.  This is the case in the silver gray dorking as well.  But in the dorkings, the Red variety does call for shafting in the females.  So now you have the  red variety calling for shafting and the silver variety calling for no shafting.  I think there should be consistency in calling for shafting or no shafting between the varieties.  In Ameraucanas we do not yet have a \'Red\' or \'Light Brown\' or \'Black Breasted Red\' variety to compare to, so silver is going to be the base pattern for these future varieties.   Since shafting is more or less \'natural\' to the silver variety, why couldn\'t this be the standard?  There is precedence in allowing shafting in the red dorking, welsummers, and American game bantams (ABA) so we would totally be plowing new ground here.

Just some thoughts.
Curtis Beck
Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: Guest on September 12, 2005, 06:20:04 PM
The difficulty with regard to the shafting in Silver females is that there is no Silver version in either Standard that I know of where this occurs.  The description for females is without shafting, regardless of whether the male has striped saddles or not.  That means that a custom one would have to be fashioned, proposed and adopted by both the ABA and APA for the Ameraucanas - a Herculean task in all likelihood.  I think that the Dorking genetics is a little different, and the Red Dorking females called for the shafting because of the similarity to the Colored Dorking variety.  While shafting in Silver Dorkings may have been a problem of varying magnitude, it seems that the early Standard makers still felt that a clean, well stippled, shafting-free color was the desired idea.

In discussions with the Leghorn breeders (and I mean some of the deep ones that worry or ponder over the fine points of color) the counsel is that the color of the cape (neck area under the hackle) is a link to the shafting, and they select for males that do not show color along the shaft in the cape.  In fact, one advised that cape color can be evaluated pretty early in young males.  To get less shafting in females, select males that have strong black color at the feather center, and which do not show any light striping in the middle along the shaft.

The thinking on the saddle stripe in males is that it has more of a link to breast color in females.

Again, all the other breeds with a Silver variety that doesn\'t reference back to the Leghorn (in the APA SOP) call for striped hackle and saddle in males, and no shafting in females.

As I suggested earlier, I need to do a matrix comparing the female color in the two silver variants (Silver as in Leghorn and Silver as Dutch Bantam) to see if there are any other striking contrasts there.  I\'m still interested to know if Silver Ameraucana males are striped in the saddle, or have breeders been able to move more toward a clear silver saddle as in the ideal Silver Leghorn.

Sam Brush  

Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: John on September 12, 2005, 06:22:23 PM
OK, here is what I think it should be...
Curtis mentioned \"natural\" and I think it is natural for the saddle to have the same description as the hackle.  Silver duckwing, brown red, wheaten and others seem to follow this pattern.  I like the language the ABA uses on p. 234 to describe the silver plumage of a male\'s saddle: \"Same as hackle\".
As far as shafting goes, I think the birds look best with the least amount of shafting.  It would be great to eliminate it, but don\'t know if that will happen.
I would like to get some feedback on another thought.  The silver Leghorn male (APA p. 133) and the silver Ameraucana male (APA p. 197) both show the hackle striping on the lower hackle feathers, as the Standard calls for but my silver bantam and LF Ameraucana males have it all over their hackles & saddles like my brown red do.  Do the silver Leghorns really have it only on the lower half?  If so it is achievable, but as Curtis brought up, we don\'t have to copy the Leghorn silver description completely.  
I think it is interesting to also note that although both breeds use the same written description that the Leghorn portrait has no saddle striping, while the Ameraucana has it on the lower half of the saddle to go with the hackle\'s look.

 
Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: Guest on September 12, 2005, 07:47:06 PM
John, I\'m not sure whether I would agree or not that matching saddles and hackles are \"natural\" but it does seem that the Light Brown Leghorns are definitely not that way, and the Silver Leghorn appears to be the silver version, with a clear saddle.  The word is that the ABA Silver description for Leghorns was taken from the British approach, and in Britain there is but one Brown Leghorn, with striping in hackle and saddle.  Little wonder that the Silver description had similar effects.  I believe that the clear saddled Light Brown Leghorn is the ideal attainable pattern after which the Silver (which you may recall started out as Silver Duckwing and was changed) was modeled.

I think the question is whether Ameraucanas (and perhaps their Araucana cousins) should have more appropriately been patterned after what later came into being as the Silver Dutch or Silver Phoenix colors - with male hackle AND saddle striping.  Not sure why the Leghorn was chosen as the Silver Ameraucana reference, but it could have been a slip-up.

John, good note on the slight contradiction between the Silver Leghorn LF and Silver Ameraucana pictures.  I suspect that in the fast and furious rush to get out the color Standard, Jackey painted the male, the sponsor said \"sure, that looks good\" and in it went, without some critique or back-check to see how it matched the Silver Leghorn text.  It is interesting to note that in the Light Brown Leghorn there is mention of \"some\" stippled feathers in the saddle.

If the determination is made that Silver Ameraucanas really don\'t come with clear saddled males, then perhaps a re-orientation of the reference to the Dutch Bantam color for Silver might be desirable.  The Phoenix has its own custom Silver description which could be considered as well, although as I mentioned before, it is pretty much the same as the Leghorn.

Sam Brush

Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: John on September 12, 2005, 09:40:21 PM
Please note that I don\'t show much and am not very familiar with other breeds.  Most of what I writing are just the thoughts and observations of a chicken farmer.
The silver Leghorn pattern, with striping on the lower hackle and none on the saddle, reminds me of the same thing I see with wheatens that are supposed to be free of hackle striping but often have it.  It looks to me that they had the same problem with the light brown variety (like a wheaten with some striping in the lower hackle) and couldn\'t breed all the striping out so lived with it.  I see that Jeffrey, on p. 192 of Bantam Chickens, says \"there is black striping in hackle and saddle of the light brown\".
No, I didn\'t know silver Leghorns started out as duckwing, but I think I can see why they changed it.   It sounds like the Leghorn was supposed to be silver duckwing and they changed the description because they had the same problem we have with the wheatens.
As I study it and get more involved with the subject, I would like to see the Ameraucana standard go with striped saddles and hackles regardless of what the others do.  If we don\'t go with striping throughout both areas I would rather go with a silver duckwing pattern, than to settle for a few striped hackle feathers that make the birds look like we weren\'t able to breed them properly.  
Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: grisaboy on September 12, 2005, 10:31:13 PM
I just went tromping out to the chicken coop with my flashlight to take a look at saddle feathers.  (I almost stepped on a great big frog).  The silver male that I think has the best color, has a lot of striping in his saddle.
I like the wording of the silver Dutch bantam.  It describes the saddle as \"Same as the hackle, but with less stripping than than hackle.\"   (I think maybe it should be striping).  But any way that is pretty clear, and pretty obtainable as a breeder.  The female still calls for finely stippled gray, free from shafting. ( So I still would have some work to do there.)

I am not an Araucana breeder, but I was kind of hoping that the Araucanas would stick with the silver duckwing color with the clear hackles and saddle.  This further distinguishes the Ameraucana and Araucana breeds.


Best Regards
Curtis
Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: Guest on September 13, 2005, 07:11:25 PM

Hi Sam, and others, i forget to say who I am, this is \"mom, AKA Rita, Sean\'s Mom, But he has chosen the name for his farm, \"McKee\'s Fowl Farm\", so that is shy I signed in with that name here. Sorry for any confusion.

Here is a suggestion, as I am not sure why each breed has a differant disctiption for it\'s own color?? makes no sense to me.  Each breed should have distinctions for sure, body type, feather type, skin, eyes etc etc

however shouldnt each color be distinct, and the breeder breed his or her fowl to match a color??
Like when we have a Blue variety, they are all \"blue\"
and A Buff is Buff, and Silver is silver, and Black breasted red is black brested red, etc

I am still kind of new, and Ameraucan breeders are few and far between, so any \"color\" advice has come for others in the mix, thus making an even more confusing problem??
It certainly would make goals easier and less confusing to set and achieve?
Thus you  can see why our \"silvers\" are what I call silver..and yep..probably way off then from the standard, as personaly I don\'t like the silver duck-wing look, and have concentrated on darker silvers, which by the way have very little shafting now in the 6th generation, however the males are nearly all black, with very little hackle oand saddle silver, and what they have is deffinately stripped.

I know their will always be some variance in color, as a plymouth rock has a natural barring, to their feathers, and others a natural shafting..but this is one thing that helps them be distinct..if the were all alike, and folks are doing way too much ot it, it requires out breeding to other breeds to bring in trates, that man thinks needs be introduced??
Why not just go with what the breed actualy produces, and discourage out crossing fot \"improvement\"
Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: John on September 13, 2005, 07:30:05 PM
I know there are a few others members of this forum that breed LF silvers.  
What pattern/color do your silver males have on their saddles and how should the Standard read?
Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: Guest on September 14, 2005, 05:46:25 AM
Quote from: grisaboy
I just went tromping out to the chicken coop with my flashlight to take a look at saddle feathers.  The silver male that I think has the best color, has a lot of striping in his saddle. Curtis


After reading this discussion I went out and looked at the five Silver cockerels I have, and all have striping on their saddles. Some have more, some less, but all have it.

Being new to Ameraucanas, I don\'t have a strong opinion either way, just thought I\'d mention what I have. My boys are all from Barbara Campbell, a well-known breeder of Ameraucanas, and as far as I know she has been breeding Silvers a long time. Perhaps she will make a comment here as well.  But I am leaning towards allowing the striping to exist. (I also breed Dutch, but do not have any silvers, fwiw.)
Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: Blue Egg Acres on September 14, 2005, 03:47:21 PM
Actually Laura, I\'ve only been keeping Silvers for 3 years(have had wheatens/blue wheatens for 6 years) so consider myself new to them with alot yet to learn. I have 13 silver cockerels in my growing pen and the degree of striping varies a great deal - some with very heavy striping, some with very little. Since it is so difficult for me to see detail without handling each bird, I\'m (hopefully) attaching photos of a couple of them here to let you see for yourselves.
Barbara
P.S. Very nice article in the lateest Poultry Press Laura!
Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: Guest on September 14, 2005, 05:07:09 PM
Something else to consider, the males get less black stripping in the hackles and saddles as they age, I don\'t know to what point yet. I know our 1 1/2 old has no black in his saddle and his hackle has it more at the base with a clear silver head. Even at 11 months he did not have such clear silvering. This year I have 2 cockerels to we have kept. One has more stripping than the other, but the darker one has a good black body with no white in it. Come spring, I plan on doing pen breedings with one cockerel one month the other one the next and see what the pullets grow out as. These are long term plans but it seems the only way to go. I am wondering if the shafting comes from the white in the males black body color? I am really glad for this discussion since we only have the silver variety and are working hard on things.

Chari
Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: Guest on September 14, 2005, 09:26:27 PM

Our curent breeding rooster looks just about like Barb\'s
He is the son of a rooster from Paul & Angela Smith.
He seems to have the darker color, but has greatly improved our flock in leg color.  I am guessing their stock has some Dorking blood, as the were shorter legges with longer bodies that ours, and with the newest bbies, we still had a lot of long bodiesin proportion to leg length.  It makes for funny looking youngsters, however I will say they have grown out into very nice stock.
We have only one cockerl that was a throw back to out origional Golden\'s, so he will go as a pet or meat bird, we hope we can sell or trade the rest..however I want to be sure we are heading in the right direction with them befor saying we have \"quality\" stock..Or are we moving in the wrong direction??
I prefer the darker birds, and find ours seem to be improving all the time in gaining stipling, and loosing shafting..but is this the only goal?? or is there so much more?
Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: bantamhill on September 14, 2005, 10:19:50 PM
Hello all! I will take my turn . . .

My hens and pullets all have shafting in the large fowl and the bantams I have bred this year. I am not quite sure about my preference at this point . . . I need to do some thinking and research, but my gut feeling is to vote for in the male either shafting on both hackle and saddle or none at all (silver duckwing) . . .

A finely stippled hen/pullet is a beatiful thing . . . I hope to breed some in the next 5-10 years and I would hate to give up just because the stippling is difficult to attain! I wonder if the silver blue pullets/hens have shown any interesting shafting vs. stippling characteristics? I only have a silver blue cock at this time . . . he is pretty much free of shafting.

Michael (bantamhill)
Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: Mike Gilbert on September 14, 2005, 11:19:15 PM
Michael,
I don\'t think we are even considering going to silver duckwing as a color.   The only question is whether or not to have the male saddle free of striping, or have it with striping.   The hackle must have striping either way.   Based on what I have seen here, and without having a really strong preference either way, it seems that most prefer to see the striping in the saddle as per the current A.B.A. (but not the A.P.A) standard.
I can live with that, in fact I think I prefer it.   So if we go that way, our Ameraucana standard would be closer to the Dutch color description than the A.P.A. Leghorn description.   Do we need to put this to a vote?   Does anyone strongly disagree with having male saddle striping in the Silvers?

Mike Gilbert
Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: bantamhill on September 15, 2005, 07:00:45 AM
Does this have any future impact on the Ameraucana version of Blue Silver and having it accepted? I do not have an APA Standard, but the ABA Standard indicates \"silver duckwing\" . . . just wondering.

Michael
Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: Mike Gilbert on September 15, 2005, 06:25:18 PM
Unless the A.B.A. has put in a change without my knowing it the Ameraucana standard still refers to \"Silver\" not Silver Duckwing.   The latest version I have is the 1997 looseleaf edition.   On page 29 it refers the silver\'s description to the silver color as described on page 237.  That description calls for striping in the hackles, and the saddle description just says \"same as hackle.\"    They also describe the silver duckwing color as found in O.E. Games and a blue silver duckwing color which is essentially a blue version of silver duckwing.   They don\'t describe blue silver, but that would be just a blue version of silver.   Note that the color is blue silver, not silver blue which is a completely different color.
Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: Guest on September 15, 2005, 08:07:28 PM

Hi Mike,
I am not sure about a vote, but personaly I don\'t like the silver Duckwing look, I like the striping.  And my unscientific observance is that the males with good striping seem to have pullets with less shafting, and more of the stipled look..not sure if it is just a coincinence, but that is how our tiny flock seems to be progressing.
Silver duckwing\'s look ok, but I just prefer a lot of color and contrast.
Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: bantamhill on September 15, 2005, 09:55:12 PM
I am totally okay now . . . I was assuming we would try to fit into a color instead of propose a new color standard . . . I missed that somewhere! :o

From time to time I still switch my blue and silver around . . . I know better . . . really I do! :rolleyes:
Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: Blue Egg Acres on September 16, 2005, 11:39:20 AM
Does the APA Standard have pictures of the Blue Silver and Silver Blue varieties? In what breed(s) do these varieties occur?

Michael, are you bringing some Blue Silvers to the National? Sure would love to see some!
Barbara
Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: bantamhill on September 16, 2005, 12:26:57 PM
Barbara,

I will be happy to bring the cock along or we could drive to my house to visit.

Michael
Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: John on September 17, 2005, 09:01:27 AM
Quote
I am totally okay now . . . I was assuming we would try to fit into a color instead of propose a new color standard . . . I missed that somewhere!

The same here and I\'ll repeat what I said.  Assuming we were sticking to an existing description and not knowing if the Leghorn description would change to include saddle striping I said duckwing would be better than hackle striping without saddle striping.  I would like to have striping in both areas or neither.  It\'s just my opinion and I have no reason to believe the ABA has changed the silver description that now applies to Ameraucanas.
Now if the Dutch silver description works it would be fine and don\'t know why a new one couldn\'t be written to include full striping in the hackles and saddles if we so decide.
Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: Blue Egg Acres on September 18, 2005, 11:06:43 AM
I too think the hackles and saddle should match. Either both have striping or both without. I\'m partial to the striping but have to admit my eye is drawn to those males that are \"clear\" white at the tops of the hackles and saddle with the striping at the lower ends of the feathers, as in the photo of the LF silver on page 197 of the APA Standard.
Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: Mike Gilbert on September 18, 2005, 02:26:24 PM
I agree with Barbara\'s latest comments, and it seems like a good compromise.   So then the APA standard picture is correct, but the wording is incorrect in that it refers the silver color to that of the Silver Leghorn, which calls for no saddle striping at all.    Sam, when is the next deadline for proposals to change the A.P.A. Standard?
Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: bantamhill on September 18, 2005, 10:30:12 PM
Quote from: Mike Gilbert
Unless the A.B.A. has put in a change without my knowing it the Ameraucana standard still refers to \"Silver\" not Silver Duckwing.   The latest version I have is the 1997 looseleaf edition.   On page 29 it refers the silver\'s description to the silver color as described on page 237.  That description calls for striping in the hackles, and the saddle description just says \"same as hackle.\"    They also describe the silver duckwing color as found in O.E. Games and a blue silver duckwing color which is essentially a blue version of silver duckwing.   They don\'t describe blue silver, but that would be just a blue version of silver.   Note that the color is blue silver, not silver blue which is a completely different color.


I read the description several times and I think the ABA description is the one we seem to talking about. It describes a silver head and distinct striping on the bottom hackles.

I assume everyone should bring the standards they own to the national for a fun discussion? I do not own the APA and have been working color-wise from the ABA standard.

Michael
Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: Guest on September 19, 2005, 11:54:30 AM
From the posts over time and based on my own research into the issue, there are several things that are apparent:

1.  There are essentially three \"Silver\" patterns existing in the APA and ABA Standards - Silver Duckwing (clear silver hackles and saddles in males), Silver as in the APA Silver Leghorn (striped lower hackles and clear silver saddles) and then the Silver as generally listed by the ABA, with striping in hackles and saddles of males.

2.  The Leghorn contacts I have communicated with favor the APA Silver description, with the clear saddles, since it is akin to the Light Brown Leghorn pattern.  It is unlikely that the Leghorn folks will want to move toward the striped saddle and hackle version.

3.  The actual Silver Ameraucanas, as well as the illustration in the APA Standard, lean toward striping in hackle and saddle, making it contrary to the referenced Silver Leghorn pattern.  Who knows how that faux pas came about, but it is there.

4.  The APA does have the Silver Dutch pattern \"custom described\" with striped hackles and saddles on Silver males, and so while it may be somewhat after the fact, the Ameraucanas (and perhaps the Araucanas, where this whole Standard snipe hunt started) could explore referencing to the Silver Dutch pattern.  I don\'t see too much support from APA corners to craft yet another custom Silver pattern, and hopefully the Dutch Silver pattern is close enough for the purposes.

5.  Given that the current situation creates a conflict between the ABA and APA color for Silver Ameraucanas, perhaps the adjustment to reference a striped hackle/saddle could be done for both the bantam and large Ameraucanas in the interest of consistency and maybe correcting an initial oversight, but I\'ll need to confer with the rest of our committee on that one.  Since the current APA revisions are nearly through the pipeline of Standard process, it would seem better to try and take another approach to doing this if there is demonstrated consensus among Ameraucana breeders.

6.  As Mike noted, it doesn\'t sound like any move toward Silver Duckwing is desirable for Ameraucanas.  It is more a case of trying to tie up to an appropriate \"Silver\" pattern.

7.  I think the Silver Leghorn folks will likely have to live with the ABA/APA conflict for a bit, since it is unlikely that the ABA would move quickly toward designating a \"Silver as in Leghorn\" pattern like the APA has for them.

8.  Eight is my lucky number, so I\'ll stop here.  You have all done an excellent job as Ameraucana breeders and fans in taking my initial observation and discussing the situation and options.  Thanks!

Sam Brush

Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: Guest on September 19, 2005, 08:14:40 PM
Quote from: Sam Brush
The APA does have the Silver Dutch pattern \"custom described\" with striped hackles and saddles on Silver males, and so while it may be somewhat after the fact, the Ameraucanas ... could explore referencing to the Silver Dutch pattern.


Just to stick my \"new to the breed\" two cents in, that\'s what I would prefer, for what it\'s worth.
Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: Blue Egg Acres on September 20, 2005, 11:53:33 AM
Quote from: John

I would like to get some feedback on another thought.  The silver Leghorn male (APA p. 133) and the silver Ameraucana male (APA p. 197) both show the hackle striping on the lower hackle feathers, as the Standard calls for but my silver bantam and LF Ameraucana males have it all over their hackles & saddles like my brown red do.  Do the silver Leghorns really have it only on the lower half?  If so it is achievable. . . .  
 


This is a very good question. Does anyone have the answer?

John, when you say your males have full striping, do you mean that it starts on the head, or just high on the hackles?
Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: John on September 20, 2005, 12:34:28 PM
From the head on down.  I don\'t remember seeing any with it just on the lower part of the hackles and saddles like the APA protrait shows.  That is why I brought it up.  I don\'t know if there is some gene that restricts the striping from the top of the hackles and saddles or if those that may look that way are really duckwing that isn\'t pure or what.  If other Ameraucana breeders have it I will have to optain birds from them to breed that pattern into my flock, but if it isn\'t out there I would have to maybe crossbred to bring it in and don\'t what to do that.
Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: Blue Egg Acres on September 20, 2005, 04:08:10 PM
Quote from: Sam Brush


4.   . . . I don\'t see too much support from APA corners to craft yet another custom Silver pattern, and hopefully the Dutch Silver pattern is close enough for the purposes.




Do I understand correctly that even if we should want a silver description that allowed for \"full\" striping, we more than likely wouldn\'t be able to get it into the APA Standard? Would that opportunity exist at a future date?

John, I think that most of my cockerels have the striping from the head down as you describe, but I\'m pretty sure I have a few that come very close to the description of striping on the lower hackles/saddle only(I wish I could see them!) I\'ve been out with my camera again and here is a pic of one of them. What do you think? I\'m going to do a final cull soon and will pay close attention to the striping as I handle each one.

I will be bringing ALOT of extra silvers to the show that will be for sale.
Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: Guest on September 21, 2005, 07:08:00 AM
What stripe?

My note about preference to not craft yet another Silver pattern variant ties to the fact that we are seeking to pinpoint an ideal description, and the convention over time has been to organize by similar styles of patterns.  The APA Silver Leghorn style has lower hackle striping and no saddle striping.  The Silver Dutch calls for lower hackle striping and saddle striping.  The ABA Silver pattern is essentially the same as the APA Silver Dutch - stripes in lower hackle and stripes in saddle.  The full hackle striping situation is more normally associated with the crow wing varities like Birchen and Brown Red.  Every kind of duckwing variety, whether it be the Game style of Black Breasted Red and Silver Duckwing with fully clear saddle and hackle, or the Light Brown Leghorn and Silver Leghorn style, where striping is ideally zoned in the lower hackle, does not use a full hackle stripe.  It would seem prudent to follow the tradition and either have the partial hackle stripe or perhaps none as in Silver Duckwing...but I don\'t think going to Silver Duckwing is what the group wants.  The photos of most of the males seem to show quite a bit of muddiness and variability, not only in the crispness of hackle striping, but across the back and into the saddle.  It seems like it would be best to view those as deviating from an ideal Standard of striping in the lower hackle.  In reality, however, hackle (neck) color is worth a whopping 5 points, and I\'m not sure how one could justify cutting a Silver male much if the stripes extend beyond the lower hackle as the Silver Dutch example might require.

Sam Brush
Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: Guest on September 21, 2005, 07:17:09 AM
Female Silver color?  Other than a few comments about shafting being a problem in females, there has been a focus on male color.  There is a need to review the female color description for Silver Dutch to see how it might compare to the Ameraucanas.

Sam
Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: Mike Gilbert on September 24, 2005, 05:56:36 PM
The Silver Dutch Standard would probably fit the Ameraucana Silver variety better than the Leghorn description.   The Dutch A.P.A. standard does call for some saddle striping in the males, and it allows for a greater latitude in the actual shade of grey in the females.   Plus it says that more attention is to be given to lack of shafting in the females than the actual shade of color.    I think I like it.   What do the rest of you think?

Mike Gilbert
Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: bantamhill on September 24, 2005, 09:50:07 PM
My thoughts have been centering on the Silver Dutch and I think I am leaning that way after considering the comments of all.

Michael
Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: grisaboy on September 25, 2005, 08:20:46 PM
I just sat down with my standard and compared the female silver color description  for five breeds. Silver Leghorn, Silver Gray Dorking, Silver Duckwing Modern Game, Silver Phoenix and Silver Dutch Bantam.  These birds all look pretty much the same but it is amazing how many different ways you can say the same thing.  I like the Silver Dutch description the best because of the emphasis on a uniform gray color on the back but not a specific shade of gray.  The only part I don\'t like is the breast color.  The Silver Dutch calls for a light salmon color on the breast.  I would prefer salmon or rich salmon as some of the other breeds call for.

Curtis  
Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: bantamhill on September 25, 2005, 09:57:40 PM
I am once again refering to the ABA Standard . . . for Ameraucana Wheaten page 29 \"refer to wheaten color description, pag 248, except light creamy females . . . are to be preferred.\" I don\'t see why under the Silver Ameraucana we couldn\'t qualify a preference for the breast shade on the female and refer back to the Dutch description for the APA Standard . . . the ABA Standard has only one silver description. The presidence has been set to state a preferred shading on the female.

Michael
Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: John on September 26, 2005, 07:59:05 AM
Quote
The only part I don\'t like is the breast color. The Silver Dutch calls for a light salmon color on the breast. I would prefer salmon or rich salmon as some of the other breeds call for.

Quote
I don\'t see why under the Silver Ameraucana we couldn\'t qualify a preference for the breast shade on the female and refer back to the Dutch description for the APA Standard . . .

I agree with Curtis and Michael.  No matter what description we use, we should \"qualify\" it as needed.
Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: Guest on October 22, 2005, 02:12:41 AM
Hello everyone.
What a great discussion! It took me a bit to read through all of it but I think I\'m caught up now, lol.

Curtis brought something up earlier that I feel needs to be weighted in this discussion. The leghorn color/pattern of \"Silver\" and/or \"Silver Duckwing\". This color is based on the wild red junglefowl genes at two points on the chromosome. One point (locus) is for the wild type color called \"gold\", and refers to the sex linked gene for red or the alternate mutation of silver. The second point (locus) is for the wild type pattern called \"Black Breasted Red\" which is based on the E-locus gene \"e+\", the most recessive gene that can be present on this chromosome point. Together, these two genes can make BB reds or BB silvers (aka the Silver Duckwing or BB Red patterns).

This is completely different from the Ameraucana type of silver, which from what I understand is based on the E-locus allele (mutation) called birchen \"E^R\". In other words the leghorn silver duckwing (Silvers) and Black Breasted Reds are not based on the same gene as our Ameraucanas are, so perhaps we shouldn\'t try to force our birds to \"look\" like a Silver Leghorn.

This was a question that I was going to ask about, as I noticed that our Brown Reds had the upper chest lacing that\'s typical of a Brown red. Brown Reds are genetically a Red Birchen bird. So I was having a hard time figuring out why our Silvers weren\'t laced in their upper chests, as they are genetically Silver Birchen birds.

Ameraucana Brown Reds should really only differ from the Silvers in color, not pattern. So I guess my opinion would lean toward making our Silvers appear much as our Brown Reds do, just with the silver color instead of the red color.

I hope that made sense, I\'m a bit over due for some sleep, lol.

Regards,
Dan Demarest
Missouri
Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: John on October 22, 2005, 11:47:15 AM
Quote
Ameraucana Brown Reds should really only differ from the Silvers in color, not pattern. So I guess my opinion would lean toward making our Silvers appear much as our Brown Reds do, just with the silver color instead of the red color.

I have had bantam brown red sports from using a black male over silver females and have thought about crossing LF brown reds with silvers to hopfully make some improvements with the silvers.  As I read the descriptions though, It appears that our silver pattern is the same as light brown and not brown red.  Years ago I had what I thought was a very nice silver bantam cockerel, but it was pointed out to me that he lacked white in his wing bays.  I think I still have a photo of him on our photos page of this site.  Our silvers seem to have the full hackle and saddle striping like the brown red pattern, but the wing bay colored like the light brown pattern using silver instead of gold of course.
About 20 years ago I got my first silvers from eggs that came form Jerry Segler.  They were not as good as what we have today.  They were in between size birds and I used them to breed for both bantams and LF.  I\'ve used OE silver duckwing a few times with the bantams, along with crossing them with whites, blacks and LF silvers.  The white/silver cross produced some blues.  I used a OE LF silver male early on to breed up the size to get LF.  Since then I\'ve also intoduced a silver male from Wayne Meredith, a part Leghorn female from Mike Gilbert and crossed to my LF blacks to improve type.
Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: Guest on October 23, 2005, 12:53:33 AM
Hello John,
What you\'ve said makes the picture a bit clearer for me. Correct me if I\'m misunderstanding this, but it seems that the Silver Ameraucana started out life genetically as a Silver Birchen that wasn\'t well colored. As time went on and other breeds were added to make them better, they\'ve slowly begun to change over to a genetically Silver Duckwing. So I\'m tempted to assume that at least some of the reason for the poor types that are still being worked with are due to a mixed genotype for birchen and duckwing. In other words, there are still birds out there that are genetically E^R//e+ at the E-locus. Other genetic factors will of course play a big role in how they look, but a split at the E-locus would really make a mess of things if the breeder wasn\'t aware of it and knew what to look for.

If this is true then we have a unique opportunity in the Ameraucana community to work out several things in one basic action. We can continue working toward the silver duckwing type and at the same time create the BB Reds. As long as we can all agree on whether we want saddle shafting to be in their standards or not, then there\'s nothing stopping us all from being successful. The second thing that we have on our plates to consider is, we can also go ahead and make Silver Birchens from our Brown reds. Not at all a difficult breeding project, shouldn\'t take more than two years to get something good enough to show if approached intelligently. But it would makes sense if we offered Brown Reds & Birchens along with the Gold Blacks, that would be an entire offering of colors within one pattern.

Mind you it\'s dangerous to give me ideas, lol. The wild type \"e+\" allele (aka BB Red or Duckwing family) puts other options on future Ameraucana breeder\'s plates. True Creles are possible, so are Brassy Backs. At this rate, we\'ll almost be able to rival the OE in varieties available!

Regards,
Dan Demarest
Missouri
Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: John on October 23, 2005, 12:50:30 PM
Quote
Silver Ameraucana started out life genetically as a Silver Birchen that wasn\'t well colored. As time went on and other breeds were added to make them better, they\'ve slowly begun to change over to a genetically Silver Duckwing.

Yes, the bantam male I mentioned was birchen so I used OE silver duckwing to get the silver/white wing bay.  
I don\'t remember if my original medium sized \"silvers\" had the silver wing bay or not.  I would imagine they did, because I remember the silver bantam Jerry Segler showed many years ago in Iowa looked very much like OE in type and I got my start from him.
I have developed some varieties of LF on my own, but remember that Wayne Meredith and some others did also.  Today most of these stains have been mixed.  For instance, years ago Wayne bought a LF black from me to use in his black matings and I bought a LF silver from him to breed to my silvers.  I don\'t know what Wayne used to create the silvers that he developed, but my line carries that blood.

Thanks for taking on the LF black gold and lavender projects.  I just started on the black gold this year for two reasons.  First to help get it developed and recognized, since it takes at least 5 breeders for 5 years to go thru the qualifying process, and second to get started on a LF version just so it wouldn\'t be left behind.  I\'m not a big fan of black gold, but want to help those that are.  I am a fan of lavender and have started working on them along with a few others this year.  
For years I resisted working on new varieties, simple because we have some recognized ones that need to be developed like bantam silvers, LF silvers, LF buffs and LF brown reds.  I had all 16 varieties, but have cut back on some that are better established to concentrate more on others that need work.
Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: Guest on October 24, 2005, 11:17:28 AM
Thanks John.

So we\'re still looking at the standards for the Silver (duckwing) variety. I noticed the same discrepancy in the APA standards between bantam Silvers and large fowl, and I also noticed that this difference isn\'t present when looking at the Light Browns.

Just my 2 cents, but I\'d prefer that the large fowl and bantam look the same in pattern and coloration. I like the large fowl description, like a Light Brown large fowl leghorn but in the silver color.

I\'ll start a new thread for the Black Gold and Lavender discussions so this thread doesn\'t get completely hijacked. ;)

Regards,
Dan Demarest
Missouri
Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: grisaboy on October 24, 2005, 03:48:22 PM
Hi Dan,
Nice to see you on this forum.
The Silver Ameraucana has the e+ gene at the e-locus.  This has been part of the problem with development of this variety because the e+ gene is not part of the original gene pool.  I\'m not sure any one knows the original gene pool but it seems to based on the wheaton e^wh gene and not the wild type e+ gene.  I believe that the E^R Birchen gene is also new to the breed.  I have used Wheaton birds in my Silver project and got BB Reds and Silver Wheatons in the back crosses.  I have also used some Easter Egger birds in the project that I am not sure what the E-locus is.  The hens come with either white heads and breast or yellow heads and breast.  Not typical wheaton or BB Red colors.  I am hoping that the white headed hens will help get rid of the red shoulder feathers in my Silver males.

Curtis
Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: Guest on October 24, 2005, 11:17:07 PM
Hi Curtis,
Thanks for the welcome.

Have you continued with the BB Reds or Silver Wheatens? I\'d be very interested to see them and your easter egg hens. My original stock of easter egger hens consisted of two pullets, one was silver laced and the other was reverse silver laced, most likely due to wyandotte genetics. They definately brought in the e^b partridge gene. The e^wh wheaten and E extended black e-locus genes were brought into my genepool by the black sex link hens (rhode island male crossed to barred rock females), crossed to a barred rock male. After years of working with them I managed to get rid of the Extended black and I\'m able to segregate wheaten and partridge when needed. The description of your hens sounds very similar to some of the segregants I\'ve gotten over the years. It would be interesting to compare them. I haven\'t had a lot of red shoulders show up in my birds yet, but brassiness does show up occasionally.

Regards,
Dan Demarest
Missouri
Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: grisaboy on October 25, 2005, 11:20:26 AM
Hi Dan,
I don\'t keep the BB Reds. I have kept one or two of the silver wheaton hens to use in my Silver project.  I keep getting the BB Reds because I have a golden male that I have kept because I think he has great color.  He is just running out in the yard with some of the Easter Egg hens.  The hens hide their nests in the hay and out pops the BB Reds.  The Golden male is e+/e^wh so he throws BB Reds, Silvers, wheatons, and the white headed or yellow headed birds depending on which hen hatches the eggs.  He could also throw more Golden males, but I haven\'t seen any for a couple of years.

Curtis
Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: John on October 29, 2005, 07:33:42 PM
Here is the one and only bantam silver cockerel that I\'ve saved, from this years hatch, to breed from in the Spring.  His leg color is white and type isn\'t great, but I really like his pattern and color.  Does anyone have any better?
Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: Mike Gilbert on October 29, 2005, 07:55:46 PM
One other thing I forgot to mention.   According to the picture you cockerel has very good wing carriage for a bantam.   Mine is carrying his quite low.   Even though mine has the slate legs, I would trade him for yours in a heartbeat.

Mike
Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: John on October 29, 2005, 08:05:26 PM
Quote
If you breed him to those two slate legged females from Sedalia, you should have something special going there.

I have culled a few more silver pullets since the National.  I still have a have dozen or so of the best.  4 came from you and some of them, if not all, are related to a male you got from me.  Maybe this spring will be the year to hatch some great silver bantams.  Of course I\'ve thought that it was going to happen a few times before.  As I told you at Sedalia, I had a better looking cockerel with slate legs but he up and died on me.    
Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: John on July 30, 2006, 02:14:52 PM
At our 2005 annual National meeting ABC President Mike Gilbert appointed Micheal Muenks, himself and me as a committee of three to resolve the Ameraucana silver variety description contradictions.  Our consensus is that the ABA description is correct by referring to SILVER PLUMAGE on pages 234 and 235 of Bantam Standard, 1988 edition.
Our proposal to the APA is:
Ameraucana silver “PLUMAGE:”, for both bantams and large fowl, should refer to the SILVER DUTCH BANTAM color description on pages 234 and 235 of the American Standard of Perfection, 1998 edition.

Currently, on pages 194 & 272, the APA Standard reads:
PLUMAGE: Color same as Silver Leghorn on page 119.

On pages 194 & 272 it should read as proposed:
PLUMAGE: Color same as Silver Dutch Bantam on page 234.

That is what the appointed committee proposes, but we want to hear more from the ABC membership.
Please carefully consider whether the Silver Dutch color description matches in all areas, male and female, so that we, as a breed club, can just propose changing the reference from the Silver Leghorn pattern to the Silver Dutch.
IF you are a club member and have any opinions on this proposal, please comment. :)

Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: Guest on July 30, 2006, 10:14:40 PM

Well, I will express my opinion on several matters.
The first being I have the 2001 Standars Of Perfection, and refuse to go by umteen other years just to follow the conversation, sooo sufice it to say, I have never seen a \"silver\" male or female in ANY breed look like the pictures listed on page 197 of the 2001 Standard.
I will say I don\'t like, nor want any silver duckwing\'s.
I do like the \"slivers\" that we currently have, anmd with them both males and females have striping in their hackle feathers, most from the head down, out males have varying amount of striping in their saddle feathers, most have it quite noticable, but occasionaly we do have one that will be just the ends with striping.
on page 242 they do show a picture of a \"dutch Bantam\", but If the picture is as far off as ther large fowl Ameraucana, hoe can anyone tell what is really beign shown?
in the picture their is mote striping in the male\'
s hackle and saddle, but the female looks blue on her back, and almost no color on her breast.
Oh and did I mention tha the picture of the large fowl Hen also shows her with a blue back section, and a light almost white underside??
Never seen this in any actuel birds?
and the silver Leghorn on page 133, shows striping in the lower portion of te nhackle and none in the saddle on ther male, and again a blue, or  Grey\" back end on the hen.

SOOOO am I color blind too? as well as having problem seeing??

I agree the pictures DO help give an overview as to the Proper\" look of the standard..but lets just say they also leave a LOT to be desired.
Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: grisaboy on July 31, 2006, 12:14:47 PM
I agree with the proposal to change the Silver Color description to be the same as the Silve Color as described for the Silver Dutch Bantam.
This will especially be an improvement for the male color.
I would prefer to see the female breast color described as \'salmon\' rather than \'light salmon\', but it is exceptable as it is.

Curtis
Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: John on June 22, 2009, 08:07:34 PM
Quote
we recommended a change in the silver variety description to refer to the Dutch silver description instead of the Leghorn description. Did this get done?

As I recall Sam Brush said it was to be changed in the next edition of the Standard.  I even asked for input from club members via the Bulletin as per Sam\'s request.  A reminder may be in order, since this was 4 years ago.
Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: John on April 01, 2011, 05:15:49 PM
I got my new Standard in the mail today.  I haven\'t looked it over much, but did check to see if the \"silver\" description got updated...it did!  Thanks to Sam for getting the change made as the ABC requested.  
The bad part is both the LF and bantam descriptions refer to two different pages for the Dutch silver description and it\'s not on either. (Not page 238 or 245, but 248)
I hope this Standard doesn\'t have near the amount of mistakes as my old one does.
Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: Jean on April 01, 2011, 06:39:12 PM
I have noticed that some of the \"refer to\" pages are not quite right.
Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: Guest on April 24, 2011, 10:36:49 PM
Does anyone have pictures of what the Standard Hen and Rooster shoule idealy look like, other than in the Photos Section?

Thanks
Title: Silver Standard Description
Post by: Mike Gilbert on April 25, 2011, 08:16:03 AM
There is a painting in the APA Standard of Perfection.
Title: Re: Silver Standard Description
Post by: Don on July 01, 2020, 11:59:24 PM
This is the discussion between club members and Sam Brush before the Silver Standard Description was changed.  Maybe it can shed some background on why the Dutch color was selected over the Leghorn Silver. I don't know if Sam or any of the others involved might add some light as well.  There are color renderings of the Silver AM Large Fowl in the APA Standard that might help also.