Ameraucana Breeders Club
The Official Forum of the Ameraucana Breeders Club => Ameraucana Marketplace => Topic started by: Tailfeathers on April 15, 2010, 12:31:02 AM
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Ok, I\'m pretty much fed up. I\'ve got a dozen hens and pullets in four different breeding pens and I\'m still only getting about a dozen eggs per week!
It\'s been this way since January when I put them in pens. And yes, they\'ve been on at least 15 hours of supplemental light. Some of you may recall that I posted a few months ago that I\'ve got birds that haven\'t given me an egg probably in six months.
My egg production really dropped off last year when the hens came into their first, hard, real full molt and evidently have never recovered. My hens just turned 2-years old this month. It\'s getting really old feeding birds month after month and not getting a single egg from them.
So here\'s my question, is it really possible that these hens are played out already? Secondly, even if they do start laying again, is it worth breeding these birds?
Based on my conversation with Mike back earlier this year, I\'m thinking the best course of action is to cull all the non-layers and just keep the ones that have been producing since late Fall and early this year. That\'s only four birds but it\'s enough to help me start over I guess. And of course, two of the birds are my #10\'s that lay an almost white egg but are also my most productive.
All recommendations, suggestions, and opinions are welcome! :D
God Bless,
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Before I would go and cull, I would change feed and wait a week. In our area, one of the feed stores is selling their \"house brand\" feed that is causing layer flocks to either quit altogether or reduce production to practically nothing even though the birds look fine. We now have reports from at least 10 flock owners that switched to some other name brand feed and within a week had piles of eggs. Just something to try that won\'t cost you much. Good Luck!
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Wow, that\'s pretty drastic.
Anne has offered good advise, but if you make changes and are still getting unsatisfactory results, couldn\'t you just start out by culling the worst of the worst? Then later on, after watching and making sure you have the right ones, cull a few more.
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I\'m glad you posted this question. I too have 3 pullets, 1 year old this month, that are not producing. 1 has never laid an egg, the other 2 did lay early on and have quit. I have 12 more pullets that are laying great though. All are on co-op gmebird breeder ration. Very frustrating as these are very nice looking birds.
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is it worth breeding these birds?
Based on my conversation with Mike back earlier this year, I\'m thinking the best course of action is to cull all the non-layers and just keep the ones that have been producing since late Fall and early this year.
If some are laying as they should then I would just breed from the productive ones. Michael has given his thoughts on only breeding from the best layers to produce better layers a few times.
Barbara has another problem, if the best show birds are not good layers. Maybe she should use males from the best layers over these hens. Compensation mating is something I\'ve always pushed.
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I\'ll stand by my earlier advice, though Annes advice is good if you want to check the feed quality. Some feeds may actually have toxins from molds in the grain it is made from. These are CHICKENS folks, not housepets. If they don\'t produce, why try to perpetuate that? There is more to poultry breeding than producing pretty feathers that match a preconceived standard. If they are vermin free, disease free, stress free, and fed a scientifically balanced laying or breeder ration, they don\'t need any more coddling. Forget the egg color, that can easily be bred back in from near-white shell coloring. Breed from your best and you will be doing the breed a big favor. Always have a \"Plan B\" and keep in mind where to go for genetic diversity when needed, if like most hobbyists you don\'t have space/room/resources to maintain multiple lines of each variety raised.
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So far as my own flock plans, I will follow Mike\'s advice. I will cull hard and breed from only the healthiest and most productive.
Now that I\'ve said that, out loud and to many people - I am sure Murphy\'s law will throw me a curve ball that changes everything and I will have to do the very thing I said I wouldn\'t.
\"Keep your words soft and sweet - in case you have to eat \'em\" Mama was right.
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If you can find a copy of the booklet \"START WHERE YOU ARE WITH WHAT YOU HAVE\" A Guide to Poultry Breeding by Ralph Sturgeon, please get it. I believe it is out of print, but contains some of the same practical advice you find on this forum.
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Thanks to all. I think what you all have done is confirm pretty much what common sense dictate but sense I\'m still relatively new at Ameraucanas, I wanted to ask.
I\'m with Mike when he says these are chickens and not housepets. Not that I\'m gonna say you can\'t have a chicken as a housepet if you want but for me these \"pets\" MUST pay for themselves or they\'re gone.
One thing I probably wasn\'t clear about before is that I was sort of asking if anyone thinks it\'s likely that these birds could be out of production for so long and then just turn on real good? I can\'t see any reason for it but again I don\'t have a very long history with Ameraucanas. I tend to think a chicken is a chicken is a chicken - but will acknowledge that I\'m open to that not being the case if someone can show me.
To my knowledge the birds are all vermin free, disease free, and stress free.
These birds are on the same rations as all my other birds including the other breeds (that are laying), ducks, guineas, and peafowl except that the guineas and peafowl occasionally get a higher dose of Gamebird feed.
I feed them a mixture that consists of:
Flock Raiser (2 parts)
Layer Pellets (2 parts)
Game Bird Flight Conditioner (1 Part)
Rolled Oats (1 Part)
Scratch (1 Part)
VigorPlus (½ Part)
Cat Food (½ Part)
DE (1/8 Part)
In addition to that, they get free choice oyster shell at all times and they to free range over about 2.5 acres or so. Plus I give them Rooster Booster at least once a month or so and ACV in their water once or twice a year too. Oh, and they get fresh veggies, fruits, and you name it usually every Sunday afternoon.
And once again, the Ameraucanas are getting the same thing as all my other birds which are doing just fine in every area.
Thanks Mike for the comment about the white eggs. I was leaning towards keeping them because I figured the blue could be bred back into the eggs pretty easily from white. As you know, I\'m no geneticist but it seems to be that bringing blue back into the eggs from white would be a lot easier than getting the brown out of green eggs to bring them back to blue. I guess I\'ll have to spend some time with the Punnet Square to know for sure.
I\'m pretty sure I\'ve got one good rooster throwing some pretty good offspring. He\'s a Wheaten and most of my birds are Wheatens so I may be light on BWs for awhile but I learned something this year when I put a BW Rooster over Welsummer hens in an attempt to get some olive eggs. I got one EE from that mating that has almost perfect BW coloring (including leg color which is even better than my true Ameraucanas) and she\'s got the best looking tail one could ask for in a BW Ameraucana.
So I\'m gonna work on getting the best black tails I can in my Wheatens and then see what happens from there with either a BW or SW male.
Oh, John, thanks for mentioning that book again. It reminds me that I need to go look for it. Think I\'ll post a search on eBay right now before I forget it. I\'ve been wanting to get that book because I\'ve seen you (and maybe others) mention it several times!
Thanks again everybody! I hate to see all these girls have to go but I guess they\'ve run their course. At least I\'ve still got four left that are laying - and you can bet I\'m setting every egg I can from them in the \'bator!
God Bless,
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These are CHICKENS folks, not housepets. If they don\'t produce, why try to perpetuate that? There is more to poultry breeding than producing pretty feathers that match a preconceived standard. If they are vermin free, disease free, stress free, and fed a scientifically balanced laying or breeder ration, they don\'t need any more coddling
I hope it wasn\'t my post that made you write this. I\'m just saying culling down to FOUR from so many seems drastic and doesn\'t give him much to work with. I hope I didn\'t give the impression he should bring them inside and hand feed them goose liver pate!
I agree with you on culling hard. Not enough people do it. I\'ve even decided to cull one of my Black/Lavender split Ameraucanas from the breeder pen, which might sound harsh since there aren\'t that many Lavenders yet and they\'re still being worked on, but she is the only one laying a noticably greener egg, pretty small and more elongated than the others. Now that I\'ve decided to cull her, she\'s just quit laying altogether! Can she know? Lol! She hasn\'t layed for at least 9 or 10 days now, so one more good reason I need to get her out of the pen.....IF I can ever catch her in the act so I\'ll know which one she is for sure.
None of the 22 eggs I have in the incubator now, due tonight, are hers. They just weren\'t pretty.
Speaking of eggs, all my culls (unless they\'re sickly or poor) end up as free ranging EE\'s with other breeds and they give me LOADS of eggs. I don\'t know if it\'s the extra bugs, the never ending supply of pasture grasses and weeds, the excercise, or all the above, but my free rangers have never had a problem with laying. I\'m lucky I can free range them in such a rural area, but I only let them out when I\'m at home. I\'ve only had one loss (a stray dog) in 2 years with my free ranged birds (knock on wood), but I still won\'t let my Ameraucanas and Marans out of the pens and runs for anything, except when I\'m doing major cleaning and I\'m right there watching them. I just can\'t risk it.
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\"I hope it wasn\'t my post that made you write this. I\'m just saying culling down to FOUR from so many seems drastic and doesn\'t give him much to work with. I hope I didn\'t give the impression he should bring them inside and hand feed them goose liver pate!\"
Nah, Sherry, I wasn\'t directing my tirade at anyone in particular. It was just an indirect indication of disgust of the goings-on over at the BYP board. And it is no secret that I\'m less than thrilled at the lack of progress within the recognized varieties of Ameraucana, given the size of the membership, particularly with regard to production qualities such as meatiness and rate of lay. Did you realize that with four females and four males it is possible to make sixteen different matings? Good record keeping is essential to making progress.
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Royce, I\'m not disagreeing with your methods - just wondering - why do you feed so many different things?
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Hi Cedar,
To be completely honest, I don\'t have an answer for you. A couple of years ago my wife came to me with this idea. She said she had read a bunch of stuff and came of with this \"recipe\" that would make our birds look better for the shows. I didn\'t have the time to research it myself, figured it wasn\'t a \"Hill To Die On\", and so forth so I just went with it.
I don\'t know if it made a difference in their plumage but she swears it has. That was two years ago so I just kept it up. And I kept it up all last year while we were separated but it\'s a lot of work. She just moved out again and this time I think I\'m on my last batch of \"the recipe\". I think I\'m gonna just go with Layer Pellets for the chickens, Flock Raiser Pellets for the ducks, and maybe mix in some scratch every now and then especially during the winter. Maybe I\'ll throw in some VigorPlus every now and then too. I dunno. I don\'t know if I\'ll ever give them catfood, oats, and the other stuff again. I just dunno yet.
I was told some time back about something called Diamond V and was gonna try it but never got around to it. I talked to one of the Sales Reps about it. Sounds a lot like VigorPlus but I know some folks who really think it\'s making a difference with their birds.
Oh btw, Cedar, I didn\'t think you were disagreeing with me. I\'m sorry if my post came across that way. It\'s ok to disagree with me anyways. Everybody on here knows I\'m wrong more often than I\'m right anyways! :rolleyes:
Mike, interestingly enough, I started with four different lines of pullets and four different lines of cockerels. At this point I know I\'ve got at least two different lines of females and two different lines of males. I might have more but haven\'t decided yet. I\'m not sure at this point how many rotations I want to have - but that was a good point you made. I should have brought that up but didn\'t think of it.
Oh, and btw, I\'m not familiar with BYP. BYC yes, but not BYP. If it\'s similar, I hear what you\'re saying. I think a lot of folks think I\'m nuts because I tell them I\'ll just stick to working on the WBS Ameraucanas and the Barnies and Wellies that I\'ve been working with.
I don\'t know how \"good\" my record keeping is but it\'s helping so far.
God Bless,
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I\'ve been wanting to get that book because I\'ve seen you (and maybe others) mention it several times!
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Books/Rare-collectable/NZ-published/Other/auction-282168843.htm
http://www.poultrynz.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1297
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\"I hope it wasn\'t my post that made you write this. I\'m just saying culling down to FOUR from so many seems drastic and doesn\'t give him much to work with. I hope I didn\'t give the impression he should bring them inside and hand feed them goose liver pate!\"
Nah, Sherry, I wasn\'t directing my tirade at anyone in particular. It was just an indirect indication of disgust of the goings-on over at the BYP board. And it is no secret that I\'m less than thrilled at the lack of progress within the recognized varieties of Ameraucana, given the size of the membership, particularly with regard to production qualities such as meatiness and rate of lay. Did you realize that with four females and four males it is possible to make sixteen different matings? Good record keeping is essential to making progress.
You know, you learn as you go (or I hope people do) and I didn\'t realize a year ago that there were still so many varieties that needed work. I\'d bet others new to Ameraucanas are just as clueless as I was.
Besides the Lavenders, I\'m now really interested in working with the Silvers. I\'ve always liked them. I just got 3 pullets from Jean, and a Black/Silver split cockerel. She said that crossing to the blacks should improve both the egg color and the size of the birds. I\'m really pleased with them, very pretty birds. I had to get a Wheaten pullet too while I was at it!
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Sherry: I know what you mean - a year ago I thought all I had to do was get a male & female of the same variety from a reputable breeder and I\'d be in business. Then I learned a little more, started seeing my birds\' faults and got so discouraged. Reading here I\'ve realized all birds have faults and all varieties need work, formed a plan and set some goals, so I\'ve kind of come full circle.
Mike: I LOVED your post (even if I did choke on my coffee, lol)! I totally agree - reading some other forums I seem to be in the minority because I don\'t \"love\" my chickens. I love the breed, but, with the exception of my first hen (little game hen named Penny, because she wasn\'t worth a nickel), I don\'t get attached to individual birds. Wish I could be as detached with the mammals around here. Baby goats have a way of casting a spell over me...
Royce: I\'m glad you posted about the black tails, because I was wondering about that, too.
I have 2 wheaten hens I\'d pulled from the pen, because they had sparse beards & muffs. But I didn\'t get rid of them, because one of them has the most black in her tail of any of my wheatens. The more I read, I\'m thinking I should put her back in. If I understand correctly, sparse muffs mean the bird received one copy of the gene instead of 2, so, in theory, if I breed her to a cock with full beard & muffs, 50% of the offspring should receive 2 copies and have full beards & muffs, and hopefully more black in their tails. It seems like, compared with getting a blacker tail, the beards & muffs wouldn\'t be that hard to correct. At least that\'s how it seems to a newbie - what do you guys think?
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I have 2 wheaten hens I\'d pulled from the pen, because they had sparse beards & muffs. But I didn\'t get rid of them, because one of them has the most black in her tail of any of my wheatens. The more I read, I\'m thinking I should put her back in. If I understand correctly, sparse muffs mean the bird received one copy of the gene instead of 2, so, in theory, if I breed her to a cock with full beard & muffs, 50% of the offspring should receive 2 copies and have full beards & muffs, and hopefully more black in their tails. It seems like, compared with getting a blacker tail, the beards & muffs wouldn\'t be that hard to correct. At least that\'s how it seems to a newbie - what do you guys think?
Absolutely agree. Muffs and beards are easy to correct, good tail coloring in wheaten & blue wheaten females not so much without bringing in the unwanted male hackle striping.
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Besides the Lavenders, I\'m now really interested in working with the Silvers. I\'ve always liked them. I just got 3 pullets from Jean, and a Black/Silver split cockerel. She said that crossing to the blacks should improve both the egg color and the size of the birds. I\'m really pleased with them, very pretty birds. I had to get a Wheaten pullet too while I was at it!
Sherry,
Let me know how the cockerel turns out. I would like to see a picture of him when he is more mature.
I have a couple very large cockerels growing out with lots of silver in the saddles and hackels and a couple that are completely black still.
As for my suggestion to Royce on the non laying hens: I discussed with you at the Monroe show what I felt may be the problem and I really hope you try what I suggested. :)
As for feed, I use Purina. My chicks get Chick Start, growing birds all get Flock raiser until they are up laying in breeder pens and layers get Layena. Occassionally they get some scratch, red wheat or some oats which I have around for the geese. I would say the main diet of my show birds is 99.9 % layer pellets.
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Mike: I LOVED your post (even if I did choke on my coffee, lol)! I totally agree - reading some other forums I seem to be in the minority because I don\'t \"love\" my chickens. I love the breed, but, with the exception of my first hen (little game hen named Penny, because she wasn\'t worth a nickel), I don\'t get attached to individual birds. Wish I could be as detached with the mammals around here. Baby goats have a way of casting a spell over me...
I do tend to get attached to some of mine truth be known, but it\'s usually the \"important\" ones, so I wouldn\'t call it LOVE! My daughter got mad at me once when one of the extra roosters we have around here died and I said something insensitive like, \"At least it wasn\'t one of our good ones\", or something close to that. Boy, if looks could kill I\'d have dropped dead right then and there!
Jean, I\'ll keep you updated on the cockerel, and take photos from time to time as he matures. I think he\'s a nice looking boy.
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Sherry: I do have to admit that I truly was attached to Penny, and was upset when I lost her, but my son loves all of his chickens. He has a rooster he\'s named \"Mr. Chicken,\" a crooked-toed cull with more lives than an alley cat (including but not limited to finding him half-frozen trapped under a pile of snow) who has claimed the goat barn as his bachelor pad. He carries that fool thing everywhere. Sometimes I feel sorry for him, but I suppose there are worse fates for a cull rooster. ;)
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Thanks to Beth & Mike for the cont\'d dialogue on breeding traits. They were helpful.
Jean, I don\'t want you to think I just dismissed your advice. I really didn\'t. I\'ve just decided I ain\'t doing any more treatments. I\'ve heard good things from others about Denagard but I don\'t seem to be having any problems with my other breeds and I have a few Ameraucanas that aren\'t having any problems so even if the others have MG, and that\'s why they\'re not laying, I\'m getting rid of them and will continue to breed only the strongest survivors that don\'t seem to be plagued by whatever. I\'ve talked to several folks about Barnevelders in particular where the whole breed seems to be overly susceptible to many diseases and MG being one of the worst. So that\'s a battle I just ain\'t willing to continue to fight. At least not now.
Sherry, the comment \"At least it wasn\'t one of our good ones\" actually made me LOL. I can see myself doing the very same thing and getting the very same reaction! LOL
Btw, just as an update, I still have only four birds laying. The #11 that did give me 2-4 eggs has stopped again.
God Bless,
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Btw, just as an update, I still have only four birds laying. The #11 that did give me 2-4 eggs has stopped again.
God Bless,
Well shoot, sorry to hear that, but I guess you gotta do what you gotta do then. I didn\'t know about the problems with MG. I fought this a little last year. Some birds only sniffled a time or two and bounced right back, but some had a harder time shaking it and kept relapsing. I didn\'t want to baby them to much, but did try giving them a round of meds in their water, but then winter came and did the culling for me. Now (knock on wood) no one has been sick for months, which is sooooo wonderful! I guess it\'s best in the long run that those with low resistance or a poor immune system aren\'t able to pass it on.......but there I go beintg insensitive again!
Beth, long live Mr. Chicken, lol! What a cute story.
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Hello Royce, I wonder if the special diet you have has become a bit rich or unbalanced as a *layer feed*. this may not bother some breeds but maybe a thought for your beautiful wheatons. maybe trying some basic layer ration only for a week or two. It would be a shame to have to almost begin anew. Kinda like gardening. too much of some nutrients promote more leaves than fruit or flowers.
I recently had been feeding my birds what i had and could mix together because of family difficulties but now am back on layer feed, I am not saying that this was the problem, but i too had sparse egg production but am having noticeably more now....except for the free rangers who never let up. eliz
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Hhmm, last 2 days i have been getting lots of eggs, including from those that haven\'t previously laid. Lots of warmth and sunshine. Could that be spring????eliz
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Being a lazy animal husbandry person, I long ago realized that selecting from the highest producing hens sort of happens on its own. I always hatch early and late, which selects for the hens with longer laying cycles. If a hen lays every day, she has 7 potential chicks in the \'bator. If a hen lays one egg a week (or none)... you get my drift.
Then again, I was dismayed that my lovely lavender bantams didn\'t lay one single egg this spring. My dog told me there were some hidden eggs in the Phoenix pen. Sure enough, the little hens snuck out every day, laid in the Phoenix pen (and consorting with the handsome Phoenix) and then snuck home with lame excuses for the husband left at home.
Seriously, I agree with the feed having the most affect on laying... and the weather. If one hen doesn\'t lay... cull her. If most or all your hens don\'t lay, change something.