I found this in the "way back machine" archives from 12/14/14. You can see the whole archive here:
https://web.archive.org/web/20141208141907/http://ameraucana.org/forum/index.php?topic=1733.0http://www.edelras.nl/chickengenetics/mutations1.html#gen_mut_elocusQuote
The E locus alleles produce the base primary colour/patterns to which varieties are build upon.
Each Ameraucana variety is based on an e-locus gene. Since birds get a gene from each parent it is important that the pair of genes at the e-locus (location of the "e" genes) are the same. The 5 main e-locus genes in order of dominance are...
E = Extended black, sometimes just referred to as Extended
ER = birchen or crowwing
eWh = wheaten, used to be call dominant wheaten
e+ = wildtype or duckwing
eb = brown, was also called partridge (ep)
Here are some of the varieties that can be built from these foundational genes...
E = black, white, lavender, blue, splash
ER = brown red, blue, splash, birchen, lavender, white
eWh = buff, wheaten, blue wheaten
e+ = silver
eb = partridge, buff
I've underlined the varieties that I think are best based on these e-locus genes. Note I don't think blacks and blues should be based on the same e genes, so they shouldn't be bred together as most of us have done. To get the best blacks they should be based on E, but the best laced blues may be based on ER.
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« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2012, 08:53:10 AM »
I would just add that I don\'t think you can get a buff based on eb with proper undercolor. Buff Columbians are based on eb, Buff Orpingtons and others are based on eWh. And there is another good reason for not crossing blacks with blues besides the e locus gene. Good blacks will most often be based on sex linked gold (s) while the best blues will be based on silver (S). Having said that, the two can be crossed as long as you use a male of the color you are shooting for and only keep his female offspring, disposing of the males. That\'s because the females will have their father\'s (S) or (s) as the case may be. Sex linked characteristics are not passed down from mother to daughter, only father to daughter.
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« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2012, 09:33:01 AM »
Quote from: John
Note I don\'t think blacks and blues should be based on the same e genes, so they shouldn\'t be bred together as most of us have done.
I am very new at trying to understand the \"genes\" thing. I find it very interesting and can see how important it is, but right now it is still a foreign language to me. I\'m trying to read up on it.
Could you please give me your opinion on what to breed, or how to set up breeding pens, to get the best blacks? Do you suggest just breeding black to black?
What are you seeing that is a negative result (or potential result) from the black/blue cross?
Thanks,
Sharon
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« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2012, 11:29:37 AM »
Quote
I don\'t think you can get a buff based on eb with proper undercolor.
That\'s a good point. I bred buffs for many years before I knew enough to check the undercolor of my birds before using them as breeders. Now I only breed from those with buff feather and shaft undercolor.
Quote
Undercolour: (by Dr Okimoto)
Wheaten has a cream feather undercolor. e+ and eb have a gray feather undercolor even in the presence of Co. eWhe+ Coco+ heterozygotes have the gray feather undercolor and birds that I have that are eWheb CoCo (I crossed a New Hamp to a Columbian Wyandotte) also have the gray feather undercolor, but it is lighter and looks more silvery than gray. If you find that your birds are eWheb and they have a white or cream feather undercolor they may have melanotic. Birds with melanotic often have a white feather undercolor, but this may be an interaction with some other genes because I don\'t think that they all have a white undercolor.
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« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2012, 02:57:10 PM »
Cindy,
Some of your birds may have silver in the background. The original blacks I used produced silver birchen pullets occassionally. I used the same blood line to create the Lavender Araucana and I have silver duckwing lavender araucanas from them also.
I have several degrees of lavender shades and the lighter ones may be silver background. I know my Lav Orps have silver background on some of them because I used a Coronation sussex from the Australian blood in some of them and produced very light colored lavender offsprings. Since I do not claim being an expert on poultry genetics perhaps I could be just assuming these resluts as having silver in them and I am not sure if I am correct or not.
Sorry, my original blacks I used some silver hens since I only had one black and two silver hens to produce my original blacks.
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« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2012, 04:21:32 PM »
John said:
Note I don\'t think blacks and blues should be based on the same e genes, so they shouldn\'t be bred together as most of us have done.
I am very new at trying to understand the \"genes\" thing. I find it very interesting and can see how important it is, but right now it is still a foreign language to me. I\'m trying to read up on it.
Could you please give me your opinion on what to breed, or how to set up breeding pens, to get the best blacks? Do you suggest just breeding black to black?
What are you seeing that is a negative result (or potential result) from the black/blue cross?
Thanks,
Sharon
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Sharon Yorks
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« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2012, 08:54:21 AM »
Sharon, the troubles John is talking about are potential, not certain. It takes more extra melanizing genes to make a black male that is all black, without leakage, if he is based on E^R instead of E. Even on E, it takes some extra melanizers, but not as many. If you start crossing blues with blacks, and I will say that it CAN be done successfully (save only the females from the cross that are the same color as their sire), you do run the risk of losing the dark undercolor and possibly the good green sheen to the top color. It depends on unknown modifying genes. More important, I believe, is that black should be based on sex linked gold, while blue should be based on sex linked silver. Blues need to be \"silver\" so they don\'t get rusty when the feathers become worn, and blacks can achieve the best green sheen when based on \"gold.\" Also, if you have GOOD blues, when you cross them with blacks there is a high probability the blacks may not be carrying the pattern gene (Pg) and columbian (Co) that are necessary for good lacing on blues. Those are my thoughts, but some may disagree.
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« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2012, 02:46:26 AM »
What about using a black with a splash to get blue and how do you know if it is a E^R blue?
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« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2012, 08:07:32 AM »
Quote from: Chicklover
What about using a black with a splash to get blue and how do you know if it is a E^R blue?
I\'m not sure what you are asking. Everyone knows crossing splash with black yields all blues. The question is: what quality of blue are you attempting to produce? That will depend on the genotype of the splash and black used. If there is no background of pattern gene and columbian in their ancestry, why would it be expected to magically appear in their blue progeny? Personally, I doubt anyone can unequivocally tell E^R from E based blues and blacks without laboratory DNA testing. We can only make educated guesses.
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« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2012, 11:28:36 AM »
Quote
What about using a black with a splash to get blue and how do you know if it is a E^R blue?
With blues we want the pattern seen on Andalusians. Some say it may be \"E\" based, but many believe it is \"ER\".
http://www.edelras.nl/chickengenetics/mutations1.html#gen_mut_secpatternQuote
ER Bl/bl+ Pg Ml (Co)
+ eumelanin extenders
If your black and splash birds are ER/ER and have the other required genes they should make the perfect parents of great blue chicks.
http://www.edelras.nl/chickengenetics/mutations2.html#gen_mut_legQuote
Another major influence on epidermal pigment shank colour is the E (Extended Black) gene, and to a lessor degree - ER (Birchen). These genes enhance black extension on to the epidermal layer.
As Mike said we can only make educated guesses, but the shank color may help. On a black bird black shanks probably indicates E/E or E/ER and very dark slate shanks probably indicates ER/ER. The guesses are more difficult with splash and blue birds because \"Bl\" dilutes shank color, but maybe the shanks would be a shade lighter on ER/ER than on E/E.
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« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2012, 08:38:15 AM »
Along these same lines, what is the best way to breed for F2 males both black and blue
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« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2012, 06:30:11 PM »
Bigwood, I\'m not sure what you are asking, sorry. Could you maybe be a little more specific or give an example of what you feel you are up against?
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« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2012, 10:46:04 PM »
I\'m sorry. I veered off subject slightly. In your response to Sharon earlier, you stated \"save only the pullets of the same color as their sire\" I was just asking what would be the best way to breed for the best/most solid males, Black or Blue. ie; the best formula for each? Sorry for my elementary approach, I\'m just trying to get a good grasp.
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