Ameraucana Breeders Club
The Official Forum of the Ameraucana Breeders Club => Breeding => Topic started by: Susan Mouw on May 17, 2016, 06:31:40 PM
-
I have experienced a strange situation this year. I shipped some chicks, a mix of wheaten/blue wheaten and black to a very nice lady earlier this year. About three weeks after receiving the chicks, she sent me a picture of one with a mild cross-beak. I offered to refund her for that chick, but she didn't want that - she just wanted me to know. I appreciated that.
Of course, that made me go back through all my chicks - both from that hatch and from earlier and later hatches - to see if I had any other cross-beaks that I had missed. Not a one. I haven't been contacted by any other buyers about cross beak and I have about 100 chicks that I've kept for myself - no cross beak anywhere.
Fast forward a couple of weeks and this same person wrote to tell me another chick has developed cross beak. I immediately refunded her for two chicks.
I have chicks that came out of that same hatch and are the same age and I have older chicks from earlier hatches, as well as younger chicks from hatches since and I still don't see a single cross beak.
Everything I've read about cross-beak seems to point to genetics, with some possibility of temperature spikes causing cross-beak. But, in either case (temperature or genetics), with over 100 chicks here, plus the other 400 I've hatched and sold - wouldn't I be seeing it more?
Thankfully, those chicks were marked and they both come from the same pen, so I can eliminate the possibilities of where it is coming from, if genetic.
Have any of you had this happen or can offer insight as to possible causes, solutions?
-
I was told by a breeder that it was genetics. A different breeder told me it was from temps. Yet another totally different breeder told me it was from the chick having trouble hatching and it caused their beak to form like that. So i guess i don`t know lol.
My guess is that it could be a mixture of these things. But.. this thread got me thinking on this more. Maybe since your chicks that was shipped got this and the ones you kept, could maybe be because the chicks still have a soft beak from just hatching and they pecked the box looking for food and caused damage. I don`t know but it can be reason i guess. But if you shipped out a lot to others and they didn`t get it, then that theroy is probably no good lol. Was the state you shipped to warmer or a lot colder that SC? Maybe even the feed the lady fed wasn`t mixed up like it should. I asked many people this question before and i never got the same answer so i don`t think it was ever proven. Maybe i can call Penn State here in PA and get a new theroy lol. I have their number and was fixing on calling the one lady there about a problem with my Brown Red rooster anyway. ;)
-
Yep, I've gotten the same kind of response and even researching it on the internet has not led to a definite conclusion.
I doubt it was soft beaks, though. My hatch date is Monday, but I ship on Tuesday. Most of my chicks are usually hatched out by Monday morning, so their beaks should be pretty solid by Tuesday afternoon. And, like you said, if it were that, it seems I would have had it happen on other shipments. Plus, I ship a cup of gelatin mixed with chick feed in a cup taped to one end (opposite end of the heat pack), so they have food and moisture for the trip.
The suspected hen is being culled, anyway - for other reasons, as is that cockbird, but I'd sure like to know more. If you're going to call PA anyway - would you mind asking about it?
Thanks
-
I know that the answers are not so definitive, such is life. I have always thought that it was an incubator issue. But it is strange when they develop more as they grow out in the pens. But if it is definitely a result of a certain mating, it means to me that the genes of that pair are more prone to have that weakness. I think you are right to separate that pair and cull whatever other traits you may see needed. But how many of the clutch mates are doing well from that pairing? That is what is hard to understand.
-
I know that the answers are not so definitive, such is life. I have always thought that it was an incubator issue. But it is strange when they develop more as they grow out in the pens. But if it is definitely a result of a certain mating, it means to me that the genes of that pair are more prone to have that weakness. I think you are right to separate that pair and cull whatever other traits you may see needed. But how many of the clutch mates are doing well from that pairing? That is what is hard to understand.
Well, I hatched a total of 65 birds from that pen - two hens and one rooster, and so far, these two are the only ones I know about that have cross-beak. I have about 20 of those 65 here and none of those have it. Both of those would have come from the same hen, as I was able to distinguish which hen was laying which egg in that pen and I wasn't shipping chicks from the other hen, due to some unsatisfactory color issues.
Let's just say that pen has been a disappointment for this year. Thankfully, the chicks from my other wheaten pen look good.
-
Let's just say that pen has been a disappointment for this year. Thankfully, the chicks from my other wheaten pen look good.
Susan, Over the years I have had a few (probably less than 10 out of thousands hatched that developed cross beaks. Some at 3-4 weeks of age and others later in the growing out cycle). I have done research also with no distinctive conclusion. Theories anywhere from incubation, genetics, food source etc. From your statement above you jogged my memory. The vast majority of the few cross beaks that I raised were from my Wheaten/Blue Wheaten pens. I really don't remember any from my BBS pens. That would lead me to suspect a genetic issue. Just my 2 cents worth if it is worth that.
-
I have found that cross beaks are genetic. It only happens in certain strains. I have also found that when bantam blood was added it is more evident. Had two different pens of a certain color hatch at the same time since I had them separated for several hatches only the one strain hatched with cross beaks and the other stain had none. I recommend to cull the ones that produce it. I have not seen it to happening from incubation although if you only get one it may be possible but to have several and you hatch different strains and only one strain has this defect it is most likely the strain. You can breed it out if you wish to take on the effort of test mating but I only recommend it if you are testing a small amount of birds otherwise you will be test mating for the whole hatching season.
-
Anyone in the market for a nice laying, 1 y/o laying EE hen? lol
-
I have all 8 varieties of Large fowl plus self blue and i have had atleast one cross beak chick in every varietey except for self blue. I have only had 1 from Whites and Brown Reds but i had more from Wheatens. This year my Silvers threw 3 of them and i never had it in my Silvers before. I don`t think it is a varietey issue in my observation. My Silvers were all hatched from my own line with no outside blood brought in and i never had a Silver with it till this year. I guess i should just call and get Penn States opinion on this. I need to get time to call before the lady leaves for the day. :)
-
The cross beak is a recessive gene and can show up any time over many years. You need both parents to donate the gene for the chick to have it.
-
Yes, that cockbird is headed for freezer camp and someone is coming to get the hen tomorrow for a backyard layer.
-
I agree with Harry, some strains are more prone to the deformity than others. Cross beak is an immediate cull for me. But interestingly enough, and according to one of my genetic books, it is a hard trait/defect to pin point inheritance, and wholly complex. Yes, it can be caused by too high of temperature during incubation, and even brought about by the environment. (Epigenetic's at play perhaps?) It’s also thought to be genetic, and recessive, and linked to the mb gene when homozygous. (Which explains why Ameraucanas seem more susceptible than other non bearded breeds, although it appears in all fowl.) But here’s the catch; both Hutt and Landauer found it was not possible to breed pure breeding cross beaked birds, even after heavily inbreeding for multiple generations. Birds thought to be impure for cross beak, produced cross beak offspring. Birds thought to be pure for cross beak, produced offspring with normal beaks. My book calls it ‘an extremity on multifactorial basis with incomplete penetrance.’ :o Alrighty then. I’ll stick to calling it an immediate cull on an individual basis, but won’t cull an entire family line because of it.
Good food for thought here. :)
-
One way I use to id (and cull) chicks that could be potential cross beaks can be done right from hatch, though I like to give them 24 hrs to fluff up, and shed the egg tooth. While holding the chick firmly in hand, tip its' head back and look closely at the top and bottom mandibles from the underside; they should be even on both sides, and fit together perfectly, as well as be nice and straight. Any kind of deviation from this, like showing more beak on one side than the other, or any kind of curve, etc, could be a potential cross beak cull within a few weeks…hope this helps others save a bit on feed and space. ;)
-
One way I use to id (and cull) chicks that could be potential cross beaks can be done right from hatch, though I like to give them 24 hrs to fluff up, and shed the egg tooth. While holding the chick firmly in hand, tip its' head back and look closely at the top and bottom mandibles from the underside; they should be even on both sides, and fit together perfectly, as well as be nice and straight. Any kind of deviation from this, like showing more beak on one side than the other, or any kind of curve, etc, could be a potential cross beak cull within a few weeks…hope this helps others save a bit on feed and space. ;)
Incomplete penetrance? Well, that would explain a lot - such as why one bird shows it at hatch and another takes 3 weeks for it to show. It would also explain the varying degrees of it. At least it is thought to be recessive. We have an inherited disorder in Labrador Retrievers, called Tricuspid Valve Dysplasia, that is, at least theoretically, autosomal dominant with incomplete penetrance. The dominance mean that it is very hard to breed around, and incomplete penetrance means that some dogs can carry the gene(s) for TVD, without displaying any symptoms, yet pass it on to their offspring - and it only takes one parent to carry it.
At least with the recessive, it takes two.
Afterthought - if anyone needs help getting to sleep one night, try reading my article on the Genetics of TVD. http://www.ameraucana.org/docs/Genetics%20of%20TVD.pdf (http://www.ameraucanabreedersclub.org/docs/Genetics%20of%20TVD.pdf) This was published, in a serialized format, in the Labrador Quarterly - either last year or year before - I can't remember now. Worked better than sominex, so I'm told.
-
But wouldn't dominance mean it'd be easier to breed around in poultry? Because a dominant gene can't help but express itself, and than you at least know what you're dealing with. Where as recessive genes can hide for generations, and pop out of the wood work when you pair certain birds/families and least expect it. A good reminder why test mating is so important though. Mammals are very different than avians, wow... My brain was not ready to look over that paper this morning Susan. lol Need more java, maybe more brain. ::) haha
Oh, and I just confirmed my first (and hopefully last, knock on wood) cross beak chick this year. It was a blue from a batch of 30. All the rest look good, and still do, but sadly this little one was unlucky from the get go. :( Unfortunately I didn't think to take any head pics at hatch, but here is the chick at 10 days old with what has become obvious cross beak. I marked it as a potential cross beak from hatch, and grew it out until I could be sure.
(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r192/Lees-Pics/IMG_3687.jpg) (http://s144.photobucket.com/user/Lees-Pics/media/IMG_3687.jpg.html)
-
But wouldn't dominance mean it'd be easier to breed around in poultry? Because a dominant gene can't help but express itself, and than you at least know what you're dealing with. Where as recessive genes can hide for generations, and pop out of the wood work when you pair certain birds/families and least expect it. A good reminder why test mating is so important though. Mammals are very different than avians, wow... My brain was not ready to look over that paper this morning Susan. lol Need more java, maybe more brain. ::) haha
It is the incomplete penetrance that is the bugger. With incomplete penetrance, you can have an animal that carries the genetic makeup of the trait (genotype), but not display any, or only a very mild, symptom (phenotype). So, if cross beak is an incomplete penetrance, you could have a hen or a cockerel that carries the gene(s) for cross-beak, but neither one show it. You'd have no reason to test breed for it, because neither parent was showing any signs of it. The "good" thing about it being recessive is that, if one chick does show up as cross-beak, then you know both parents are carriers.
With a dominant trait, like TVD in Labs, neither parent could show any signs of it, but one parent could have the genetic makeup. If even one pup shows up with TVD - or even mild regurgitation, or murmur - then you know at least one of the parents has it. Since it only takes one to produce it (dominant), now you have to identify which parent is the source and with incomplete penetrance, you can breed a lot of pups before you produce another pup that shows signs of TVD. It is one of the heartbreaks in Labrador Retrievers.
As far as the paper goes - think how much coffee I needed to write that! lol
-
Chicks hatched in incubators have a number of faults, some you can see example cross beak, some you can't for example, under developed immune systems, the list goes on. I have hatched a huge amount of chicks using hens, I have never had a cross beak from under a hen.
-
I have a Splash Wheaten cockerel that I hatched back in January 2016. He is a decent looking bird and I wanted to get some more Splash Wheaten pullets to pair up with him. So I put him over my Blue Wheaten hens, one of which is his mother. I hatched out 15 healthy chicks. I had posted a picture of them on the Ameraucana Chickens FB page. I had all intentions of growing these out, but after posting a picture on the Ameraucana Chickens FB page to beat about them, a lady contacted me wanting to purchase them. I sold them to her and after about 10 days she contacted me and sent pictures of two chicks that had developed cross beak. I hatched and sold around 400 chicks the spring of 2016 and noone reported any issues of cross beak. So I am assuming that my Splash Wheaten cockerel is carrying the recessive gene as well as his mother which I am sure he was covering. I have pulled the Splash Wheaten cockerel and put my Blue Wheaten Rooster back over the hens. I have 42 eggs in the incubator that are from the hens being covered my the Splash Wheaten cockerel. I will be growing them out until they are at least 12 weeks old to see if any of these have cross break issues. Feeling a little disappointed, but glad to figure this out now rather than in the spring after hatching white a few.
-
Jim, I don't think that a few cross beaks a year is very unusual when you hatch in large numbers. Whether its incubator issues or purely genetic is hard to know for sure. You can always test mate birds to see if they are reproduce the same issue. I agree that the S/W male and his mother would be a prime suspect if its a genetic issue. You might pull her out and put her in another pen if you want to mark her eggs. And you might want to be watchful mating him with his offspring. You might be able to find another SW male from a similar line if you still want to produce more SWs. I don't know if there are many folks that have concentrated on breeding SW/SW. This mating will dilute the color. But we don't know if this might create other issues as well. I think we have a lot to learn about the Splash Wheaten variety still. Keep up the good work. They deserve more attention.
-
Question for you Don. You said that the SW to SW might dilute the color. Are you referring to the pullets creamy wheat color, or the Blue and red in the males. I was hoping to get enough pullets to get a small breeding pen of Splash Wheatens started.
-
Jim, You should be able to get some good females from a first generation SW/SW mating. I was thinking more about the Blue/black and Red coloring in the SW males. But we really don't know if the female color will be changed or diluted further with SW/SW matings. Since the entire Wheaten variety presents dimorphic coloring male and female, it may not change the "wheaten" coloring on the females. Though it might increase the white in the females tails and wings. But that is part of what we will hope to find in the next few years with many folks working with this new color. Blue is a dilute and SW is a double dilute gene. So I wonder if this gene changes other things in the offspring. You might talk to some of the Old English Red Pyle breeders to see if they have any experience with this mating.