Ameraucana Breeders Club
The Official Forum of the Ameraucana Breeders Club => Ameraucana Marketplace => Topic started by: angora831 on April 26, 2010, 01:49:24 PM
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I was wondering if there was someone out there that knew how to figure the protein % in a mixed ration. I have looked at some of the previous posts that show what others are feeding their birds, especially laying hen mixes, but they don\'t really tell what the final protein % of the ration is. I know back in college we had a feeds class that taught us how to do this, but alas that was back when we still used slide rulers to do the math and I have not had any need to use the formulas since.
An example that I might throw out there is:
5 LB of commercial layer ration @ 16% protein
2 Lb of whole oats @ 12% protein
1 LB of soybean meal @ 48% protein
When this hypothetical ration is mixed together what will be the final % of protein? What is the range of protein that we are we looking for in a ration that we are feeding to breeding hens?
Thanks,
Ken
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Don\'t need a slide rule for this, it\'s just arithmetic.
5 lbs X .16 = .80 lbs protein
2 lbs X .12 = .24 lbs protein
1 lb X .48 = .48 lbs protein
Total protein is 1.52 lbs, divided by total of 8 lbs = 19 %
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Got to be harder than that! Thanks. So what is the % range that we are looking for when feeding breeding hens?
Ken
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Got to be harder than that! Thanks. So what is the % range that we are looking for when feeding breeding hens?
Ken
Not to figure crude protein it isn\'t. But it also takes a good mix of amino acids that make up different kinds of protein, both vegetable and animal source proteins.
I\'m no feed expert, so get by just using Purina Gamebird Breeder Layena for birds in total confinement. Without checking the label, I believe it is 20 percent crude protein. Those that get outside on grass and eating insects can get by with almost any commercial layer ration IMHO.
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Not to figure crude protein it isn\'t.
That\'s easy for you to say Mike! I had to read it 3 times to figure out what you said. It make sense now but now you also know why I ain\'t no rocket scientist!
God Bless,
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My thoughts in starting this thread was to find a reliable feed, with a higher protein content that I could feed to my breeding hens. I also wanted to up the protein level a little to help the eggs that I am hatching \"finish\" through to getting a live chick. I believe that I saw this mentioned in the last ABC newsletter.
There are 4 dealers within a 25 mile radius of where I live that sell poultry feed. Two of them are consistenly out whenever I need to buy feed. TSC started to sell Purina feeds this past January and are pretty good at staying stocked in all of their various chicken feeds. They do not stock or have any gamebird feed with a higher protein level in the store. I have switched to the Purina Layena feed for the hens even thought it may be a little more expensive. It is something that I can consistenly get and keeps me from switching feeds all of the time. I have tried to find a cat/dog food with a higher protein to add to the Purina at this time of year, but haven\'t found anything that the birds will eat. Most of the cat/dog feed ends up on the ground or uneaten in the feeder. I do have access to all of the soybean meal that I want from a relative that raises beans. I know that soybean meal contains most of the amino acids needed by poultry, but there are also some that it lacks. I just figured the Purina feed would cover those.
With consistency as my goal, I just wanted to have a formula to work with to get my birds what they needed to produce an egg that will follow through to hatching.
Incubator concerns will be the next area of focus. I am getting quite a few chicks that start to develop and for some reason quit along the way. Just wanted to see if the feed could help.
Ken
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Ken, I had to request my Purina dealer order the Gamebird feed for me. It\'s pricey, but the coupons in Poultry Press are good for $5.00 off every second bag. The problem with Purina regular chicken feed (Sunfresh recipe) is it no longer contains any animal based protein. The cat food is a good idea. Try crushing it in smaller pieces first and then mixing it in with your other feed. Once they get a taste for it they will eat it quite readily.
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Try to find fish meal. http://www.fertrell.com/poultry.htm
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I was buying Pilgrims Layer Pellets last year because it was higher in protein than some (I believe it was 20%), and had fish meal in it. I loved it, but switched to Prime Quality 22% this year because it was kept in stock and I didn\'t have to keep reminding the feed store to order it special for me, and because it\'s $11.10 instead of $12.60...or thereabouts. Prime Quality also makes a standard 18%, so make sure you ask for 22% if you decide to try it. I\'ve been very happy with it as well, but wish it had the fish meal that was in the Pilgrims. I\'m planning on asking the store to order some for me once or twice a month anyway, and if they forget I\'ll just buy the 22%.
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Not the one to open a can or worms but..... I thought the trend in livestock feed was moving away from products with animal protein because of MadCow and related problems. From what I see in the responsed to this question animal derived protein sources are still ok for poultry and maybe even other critters??? I do let my birds free range, during the day, and they just tear into what is left from the winter hay feedings getting the fat grubs and bugs underneath. While this is not \"plant protein\" I really don\'t see it as \"animal\" either. I guess that I don\'t have an opinion one way or the other, but just want to use something that will not be detrimental to the flock and can be found on a consistent basis.
Thanks for the feedback,
Ken
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I noticed my local Tractor Supply store is carrying pellets for pnd fish that is 32% protein and has pork protein as the main source. There were actually two brands, one was 37% protein. I bought a 20 pound bag to use as a suppliment and try it out. The 50 pound bag was $16 in spendy Vermont. This stuff is MUCH cheaper than fish meal wich runs about $58 here.
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the trend in livestock feed was moving away from products with animal protein because of MadCow and related problems.
To the best of my knowledge there is only a problem, like mad cow and scrapie, when meat from the same species is fed to animals. The disease deteriorates the brain. Humans can get is too by being cannibals and receiving organ transplants, etc. Some are more susceptible than others genetically. Then also if an animal has it and a human or other animal eats the diseased animal I guess they can get it. We just weren\'t make to devour our own.
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the trend in livestock feed was moving away from products with animal protein because of MadCow and related problems.
To the best of my knowledge there is only a problem, like mad cow and scrapie, when meat from the same species is fed to animals. The disease deteriorates the brain. Humans can get is too by being cannibals and receiving organ transplants, etc. Some are more susceptible than others genetically. Then also if an animal has it and a human or other animal eats the diseased animal I guess they can get it. We just weren\'t make to devour our own.
Correct, so we still have a feed problem. I am also trying Resolution Kibble which is 42% protein made with fish meal. It is also supposed to help produce dryer droppings. I\'ll be keeping notes on my feed trials.
In case anyone is interested here is a link. I saw that my TSC is carrying their forage cakes too.
http://foragecakes.com/index.html
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I\'ve been a lurker here for a few months. I have a small flock of Wheaten/Blue Wheatens that I think I have a good start on and have learned quite a bit from the collective knowledge here as to what to breed towards.
This discussion on protein % is interesting and timely as I\'ve had my birds on a Game Bird Breeder since laying age. I recently had a hen develop an egg laying problem (shelless eggs and eggs breaking inside her). I think I would have lost her if I had not taking her to the vet for fluids and a feeding tube as she quit eating and drinking for nearly a week. I kept her nourished enough to pull through this bad patch, and she\'s gaining weight and laying normally now.
I\'m not implying the Game Bird Feed was responsible, and I provide Oyster Shell in all my pens, but the incident prompted me to do some investigation into the use of Game Bird Breeder in chickens. I first emailed FRM (the manufacturer) regarding the calcium content (% was not listed) and got this response:
\"We do not recommend the game bird feeds for chickens. The game bird line of feed is formulated specifically for quail and the calcium requirements are considerably less than poultry.\"
I\'m also blessed to have one of the best Poultry Science Division Universitys in the country near me and have been in contact with their professor of Nutrition and Management and I have his permission to post portions of his response regarding the higher protein feed:
\" In regards to your question about the extra protein you are feeding to your birds by feeding them the Game Bird Breeder feed. Your mature birds, roosters and hens, do not require the extra protein that is being furnished to them as they consume the GBB feed. As you probably know the protein is made up of individual building blocks known as amino acids and your birds really have a requirement for certain of these amino acids and not protein per se. The protein is used to only furnish the amino acids into the bird just as the feed ingredients are the furnishing the protein to the diet. So, once the requirement for specific amino acids is met the birds liver will have to dismantle the extra amino acids and dispose of the nitrogen from the amino acids as waste. The waste nitrogen that is being excreted by your birds (and all birds and reptiles) is the white material in their droppings. Whenever the bird’s liver has to dispose of lots of nitrogen from the extra amino acids being furnished from the extra protein in the GBB feed it has to work overtime and in hot weather, as we are having now and for many months to come, this will be a stress on the birds because of the extra heat that is being produced in the body as the nitrogen is excreted. The layer feed will furnish the protein level which is closer to your bird’s requirement for protein and in hot weather this will make your birds more comfortable. Your birds will more than likely do very well and have good condition and performance on the commercial layer feed once you switch to the layer if you decide to do so.\"
My answering email to him was would the Layer give me the good, glossy feather condition my birds currently have, and this was his reply,
\"Yes, you can quote me if you wish as the University poultry nutrition professor near you. If anyone calls you can give them my name and I will be glad to talk with them.
One further comment about protein and feathers: I am not surprised that the GBB feed is promoting good feather growth and condition since it is higher in crude protein. When considering the many factors that are required for feather formation, overall nutritional adequacy of the diet is of utmost importance during feather growth and development. Feathers consist almost completely of protein (~90%+) and when the bird is synthesizing new feathers a source of high quality protein in the diet becomes very important. High quality protein contains the amino acids in the proper quantity that will be required for feather synthesis. This is especially true at the time the bird is molting and after which will grow new feathers. However, mature feathers are not living tissue like other tissues in the bird’s body. Feathers are made up of the same type of protein as is found in finger and toe nails, claws, hoofs, horns, hair, beaks, etc. This protein is called keratin and contains a lot of sulfur in special bonds referred to in nutritional chemistry as “di-sulfide” bonds. So, there are two sulfur containing amino acids that are very important during feather formation. These amino acids are methionine and cystine. Cystine is the one that is found mostly in feathers and is made from methionine. So, methionine is really the important one and must be adequate in the diet during feather formation. Feeding the higher protein feed, which would provide more of these and other amino acids to the bird, would be very beneficial at the time the bird needs them for lots of new feather formation, however after the feathers are mature the extra protein is of no use for feather formation and is a burden on the bird’s liver as has already been discussed.\"
So based on his advice I\'ve been gradually switching over to 100% Layer, and I\'ll possibly add some extra protein during molts. My girls are barely touching their oyster shell now, before they were going through a half cup a week per pen of 5-7 hens. I also grow high vitamin greens (spinach, kale, etc.) which I give in small amounts several times a week, which the Phd is fine with.
Another thought I\'ve had is, if the birds eat amounts to get their required protein, perhaps they are not getting the correct balance of vitamins and minerals?
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Thank you \"cpartist\" for your post. I had been meaning to say something cautionary about the use of high protein diets but felt I didn\'t have the credentials as a poultry nutritionist. I do believe that not all commercial layer feeds are of equally high quality but it is hard to nail down which manufacturers are the best. I now switch brands of layer crumbles so that I do not feed any one exclusively for too long a period of time. We have a lot of different feed stores in our area and they carry different brands so I am able to do this easily. It\'s not exactly \"spreading the risk\" or \"covering all my bases\" but something like that.
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Since I only know enough about feeding chickens to fill a peanut shell, I would never disagree with someone who does have that knowledge. But scientific research tends to speak in terms of \"general population\" and specialists who work for the state have to be very careful about giving advice contrary to the accepted terms or outside the box because of liablility.
If I educate myself about poultry nutrition and pick the brains of knowledgeable longtime breeders, then I should know enough to tweak the rules when necessary without doing harm.
I used the game bird breeder during hatching season and had excellent fertility and hatches. Now they are back on layer pellets for maintenance. I try to keep it simple because I\'m too old to remember anything complicated.
:0)
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cpartist: thank you for this info. would you mind asking your phd what, if any additives/feed, are the best to provide breeders during breeding season?
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Great information to consider. What percentage of protein is best in the layer feeds.
Some around here are only 15 or 16% which just doesn\'t sound like enough.
As I mentioned, I have used both the 20% Pilgrims with fish meal, and the 22% Prime Quality. I\'m using the 20% Pilgrims at the moment again, because when I went to pick up a bag of Prime Quality 22%, they had a 6 bags of the Pilgrims marked down to $5 a bag since it was about to be too old. I had him cut open the bags and they all looked and smelled fine so I got them all. I\'m down to about a bag and a half.
After the Pilgrims is gone, I wonder if I should keep them on that or go to the 22% again.
Did the phd mention what is considered too high, or unneccessary?
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The protein % of Layer sold around here is 15-16%. Most of the feed stores carry FRM and Purina. I prefer the FRM because it contains animal based protein. The GBB is 20%, and the Professor indicated that even that extra 5% would make the birds liver work harder than necessary. We are in Florida also though, and he had extra concern for this with the many hot months we have.
My thought is that if higher protein was better for laying/breeding chickens, would the feed companies not offer a \"Chicken Show Formula\" or \"Chicken Breeder Feed\" and just charge more for it? FRM offers several game bird feeds; Grower, Breeder and Maintenance...surely there would be a larger market for different chicken formulas. I know some higher protein layer feeds are found in other areas of the country, perhaps these are formulated with other ingredients to help them better utilize the extra protein. Now I\'m a recent convert to this way of thinking....I also kept my chicks on 21% Starter, until laying age, bypassing grower in favor of the higher protein. But the better feed companies put a lot of research and knowledge in their formulations, so I\'m personally going to go with recommended/appropriate feeds from now on.
I will say my first group of chickens, my Buff Orp \"pets\", that were on layer and allowed to free range a few hours a day had as good or better condition than my breeders on GBB. Now that I have so many more birds and need to keep them penned for breeding I try to give them healthy treats a few days a week in lieu of foraging. Scrambled eggs with chopped veggies, fruit, and sunflower seeds mainly. No bread or salty table scraps. Just as we can\'t get all our nutrients from vitamin pills, I don\'t believe any feed blend can contain every trace element needed for optimal health. Some nutrients like resveratrol\'s and lycopene have only been identified in the last decade, I\'m sure there are many others that have yet to be discovered. Also, since I\'m the \"treat lady\", my birds come running to me and are easy to handle.
I\'ll copy this thread and email to the Professor and share any further insights he may offer.
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I\'d also like to add that we are having 90\'s during the day now, my coops are shaded, but the only birds that are panting and holding their wings out are my Ameraucanas raising chicks. They are on the higher 21% Chick Starter as I have no way to feed them separately. This may be further evidence that higher protein is more of an issue in hot weather...I hope the good doctor will speak to this.
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Apparently the 20 % crude protein in the game bird breeder layena is not an issue here, as I have poor hatchability without it and good hatchability with it. But I always furnish supplementary free choice oyster shell, along with grit.
Once the breeding season is over I switch back to a 16 percent laying mash ration, but again offer free choice oyster shell and grit. This has been working just fine for me so I\'m not about to switch. Chicks get a commercial 20 percent protein medicated starter/grower. But I make sure it contains some animal protein for a good mix of amino acids.
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cpartist said \" my pets that were on layer and allowed to free range a few hours a day had as good or better condition than my breeders on GBB\"
the free range makes a difference
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Soy protein vs. animal protein- fertility issues?
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If Sherry is buying commercial layer pellets that are 20% and 22% protein, then it must be an acceptable level. Perhaps upper limit but acceptable. My GBB is 20%.
Since a chicken has a fairly short life span, if I slightly stess their liver once a year for 3 or 4 months, it probably isn\'t a big deal in the larger scheme of things. They will most likely die of old age before their liver gives out.
:0)
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I\'d also like to add that we are having 90\'s during the day now, my coops are shaded, but the only birds that are panting and holding their wings out are my Ameraucanas raising chicks. They are on the higher 21% Chick Starter as I have no way to feed them separately. This may be further evidence that higher protein is more of an issue in hot weather...I hope the good doctor will speak to this.
I\'ve heard (but haven\'t bothered to varify) that soy based protein will burn hotter than animal protein. If this is true, just switching to an animal based protein feed in the hotter months would be a good idea, even if you don\'t use it the rest of the year. I\'ve also heard, well, actually read in this case, that unprocessed grains burn hotter than processed grains, so I do try to feed some whole oats along with regular feed in the winter months, and usually toss a few handfuls of oats out just before dark. I read (in the ABC bulletin) that the oats also help with feather condition. Whether any of these things are true or not, I have really healthy looking birds that lay plenty of eggs with nice hard shells, so it\'s working for me.
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I am surprised that no one here has mentioned a whole grain diet.
I\'ve been feeding whole oats for 3 years now, supplementing with alfalfa meal, fish meal and vitamins.
Everyone gets whole oats, and has free choice the mixture of alfalfa meal & fish meal in a separate feeder. I put the vitamins in the water.
It has been interesting to note, that of the 3 breeds I have, the ones that need the highest protein, and go through the supplemental protein the fastest, are the Marans.
Next, the Wyandottes are moderate in their need for the protein, and lastly the Ameraucanas.
If I feed in separate feeders the mix of alfalfa meal, fish meal, the Marans go through it 2 times faster than the Wyandottes. The Ameraucanas eat it the least.
When feeding like this, the chickens self regulate the amount of protein they eat. What is also good about it , is the roosters don\'t automatically get the high protein that is in commercial feed, so I don\'t worry about them getting kidney related problems from too high protein.
This way, they also can get a higher percentage of protein when they are in molt if they need it.
Sue
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Sue, I am wondering about your whole grain diet. When would you switch the chicks to this diet ? Why oats as opposed to wheat ? Do you have an easy or hard time finding the alfalfa and fish meal, and how expensive is it ?
Do you recommend any specific vitamin supplemrnt ?
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Does anyone here have experience with apple cider vinegar with mother as a supplement ? With racing pigeons apple cider vinegar is frequently added to the drinking water to maintain good acidity in the digestive system. I wonder if anyone uses it with their chickens, and if so can you say that it has any positive effect ?
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I was reading up on the internet because I was interested in finding out exactly what \"fishmeal\" is and I found this link in a discussion about the use of fishmeal in petfoods....
http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/fishmeal.html
It seems that the U.S. Govt Code of Federal Requirements REQUIRES the addition of ethoxyquin to \"fishmeal\" as a preservative. Ethoxyquin has been discussed as a cancer-causing ingredient and PPM (parts per million) in foods for human consumption are limited.....just food for thought, but maybe we want to rethink this ingredient as a protein source if the animals that are eating it are producing our breakfast? Any thoughts?
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A few years back i read an article where Ethoxyquin had been implicated in the health of several specific dog breeds as well. its used allot in pet food, so i try to buy products without it.
It should be remembered that listed foods on packaging does not require secondary labeling specifics. So if a product lists an ingredient such as fish meal, it doesn\'t need to list what its preserved with.
eliz