Ameraucana Breeders Club

The Official Forum of the Ameraucana Breeders Club => Housing, Health & Hatching => Topic started by: greeneggsandham on April 23, 2011, 10:08:57 AM

Title: can anyone give me some tips?
Post by: greeneggsandham on April 23, 2011, 10:08:57 AM
I\'m going to vaccinate my chicks for Mareks.  Haven\'t done it before and I am just sure I\'m going to kill one by sticking a needle in its neck.  I tried the other day to see if there was enough loose skin about the neck to make this possible and I just don\'t see it folks.  Are there any tricks to the trade to make this as painless for me as the chicks?  Appreciate it.
Title: can anyone give me some tips?
Post by: Mike Gilbert on April 23, 2011, 01:02:57 PM
Bunch the skin of the back of the chicks neck up between your forefinger and thumb of one hand, and slide the needle
under the skin with the other.   Insert the needle nearly parallel with the skin, don\'t go straight in at a 90 degree angle.
It\'s easy once you have done a few.
Title: can anyone give me some tips?
Post by: faith valley on April 23, 2011, 01:33:16 PM
Here is a wonderful photo article by K J at Shag Bark Bantams.  It was really helpful for me- first year vaccinating for Merek\'s as well.

http://www.shagbarkbantams.com/mdvac.htm

Patty
Title: can anyone give me some tips?
Post by: greeneggsandham on April 23, 2011, 02:26:25 PM
Thank you all very much for your advice.  I like that site Patty.  The alcohol swab sounds like a great idea for seeing the skin.
And, thank you Jean for your response.  Now I just need to get a smaller needle.   :D
Title: can anyone give me some tips?
Post by: greeneggsandham on April 23, 2011, 02:45:54 PM
Well, I can\'t find any 25 ga needles locally.  I checked Walmart and Walgreens and feed stores.  The smallest I have is 22 ga.  Is that too big?  Will it work?
Title: can anyone give me some tips?
Post by: faith valley on April 23, 2011, 04:40:57 PM
You could go the the Walmart pharmacy and purchase a 10 pack of  1 cc diabetic needles. They work wonderfully.
Title: can anyone give me some tips?
Post by: Mike Gilbert on April 23, 2011, 04:52:19 PM
When I order vaccine from First State Vet Supply they send the needles along gratis.   Also, I usually disinfect the needles with alcohol, rinse with water, and reuse them.   I think I now have a lifetime supply.
Title: can anyone give me some tips?
Post by: John on April 23, 2011, 05:16:35 PM
I get 20 gauge, 1/2 \" needles from Cutler\'s that work great.
http://www.cutlersupply.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3_76&products_id=424
Title: can anyone give me some tips?
Post by: greeneggsandham on April 23, 2011, 08:07:49 PM
Quote from: faith valley
You could go the the Walmart pharmacy and purchase a 10 pack of  1 cc diabetic needles. They work wonderfully.


Well, I called Walmart and they didn\'t have 25 ga, they had smaller sizes.  I was told by Jean, who heard it from her vet, not to go smaller than 25 ga or the virus will be broken up when it passes through the needle.  So, if John uses 20 ga, I imagine my 22 ga won\'t be too large for the chicks.  
Title: can anyone give me some tips?
Post by: John on April 23, 2011, 09:26:19 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Needle_gauge_comparison_chart
Quote
Smaller gauge numbers indicate larger outer diameters. Inner diameter depends on both gauge and wall thickness.
Title: can anyone give me some tips?
Post by: Jean on April 24, 2011, 06:17:11 AM
Quote from: John
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Needle_gauge_comparison_chart
Quote
Smaller gauge numbers indicate larger outer diameters. Inner diameter depends on both gauge and wall thickness.


I think she was referring to the size of needles that Walmart had available.  
Title: can anyone give me some tips?
Post by: Beth C on April 24, 2011, 08:41:44 AM
Jeffers has 25 gauge 5/8 inch  (http://www.jefferslivestock.com/poly-hub-disposable-needles/camid/LIV/cp/0029535/cn/3301/), but I\'ve been using a 22 gauge with no problem.

But I am curious about the vaccine breaking down in smaller needles - haven\'t heard that before.
Title: can anyone give me some tips?
Post by: Jean on April 24, 2011, 11:01:32 AM
With the diameter of the needle being smaller than 25 guage the pressure of going through the \"hole\" will shred the virus and make it of no use.

I talked to a vet at Fort Dodge regarding what size needles were appropriate because the vaccine literature suggests using 22 or 20 guage needles.

I find the bigger needles leave a huge hole in the bird and the vaccine can leak out.
Title: can anyone give me some tips?
Post by: Mike Gilbert on April 24, 2011, 03:28:15 PM
I have had very good results using the 25 gauge needles that First State Vet Supply sends with the vaccine.  
Title: can anyone give me some tips?
Post by: Beth C on April 25, 2011, 09:12:17 AM
Mike: Just bookmarked First State - that\'s a great site! Their price on Marek\'s is slightly higher than Jeffers, but the free needles & cheaper shipping more than make up the difference - not to mention they actually HAVE the vaccine.

Jean: That\'s really interesting! I\'d never heard that. But then, never really had cause to use a needle that small until recently, either. Vaccinating day-old poultry is a big change from horses/goats! :p
Title: can anyone give me some tips?
Post by: John on April 25, 2011, 10:00:28 AM
Another good place to get the vaccine from is Twin City Poultry Supply.
http://www.twincitypoultrysupplies.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=46&products_id=574
Twin City is owned by Vic Hakes in Ohio.  He sets up at our Fowl Fest show here in Michigan each fall and when I order the vaccine from him he brings it to the show so I can save on shipping costs.  
I bought my first GQF incubator from Victor about 25 or so  years ago.  It had a red cabinet and my brother now has it.
There will probably be several poultry supply companies setup at the Indy show.  These events are great opportunities to order supplies and put them up at the show to save on on shipping.  
Title: can anyone give me some tips?
Post by: faith valley on April 25, 2011, 12:57:54 PM
Walmart here carries a 1 cc 30 gague needle in packs of 10 for diabetic uses.  Guess I was not specific - sorry.  I pay 4.95 for a package.  

Vic from Twin City Poultry supply also has a 10 pack of 1 cc needles that are 29 guage, didn\'t aksk his price the last time I bought them- just told him to add it to the order.

Title: can anyone give me some tips?
Post by: John on April 25, 2011, 01:15:35 PM
Quote
30 gauge needle

Keep in mind the 29 and 30 gauge needles are going to be much smaller than the 25 gauge size that Jean said was recommended as the smallest size to use.
The larger 20 gauge size works great for me.  I tried the smaller ones a few years ago and it felt like I really had to push hard on the syringe to vaccinate each bird.  Plus the 1/2\" long needles are much easier to work with compared to the longer ones.
It\'s nice to get everything from one source, but to get what I want I order needles from Karen at Cutler\'s and vaccine from Peter and Victor.
 
Title: can anyone give me some tips?
Post by: Jean on April 25, 2011, 01:49:26 PM
Quote from: John
Plus the 1/2\" long needles are much easier to work with compared to the longer ones.


I had to use the 1\" long needles about a month ago, because it was all I could get, I don\'t know how many times I stabbed myself or put the needle in and out the other side and vaccinated the chick\'s down......  :rolleyes:
Title: can anyone give me some tips?
Post by: greeneggsandham on May 01, 2011, 07:18:07 PM
Well, I got the chicks done.  Ordered the smaller needles and waited on them.  Thank goodness, because even the 25ga was letting the vaccine leak out.  I\'m pretty sure I had a few without the proper dosage from leakage, I had one bleed on me and I had a few that went without a hitch.
I must say though, quartering that wafer is, well, for the birds.  First, I couldn\'t get the wafer out of the bottle.  It was larger than the hole!  And very fragile.  Some of it was already loose in the vial.  So I had to stick and knife down in the bottle and half it before I could get it out.  And that crumbled one half of the wafer.  Then, since I was drawing vaccine out of a glass bottle instead of a vial, I had to deal with large air pockets in the syringe.  I tried to compensate for the air bubble, but it sure was hard to tell how much I had missing.  Is there a trick to that also?  I\'m wondering if I ought to revaccinate in a few weeks?
Title: can anyone give me some tips?
Post by: Mike Gilbert on May 01, 2011, 08:12:21 PM
With a little practice and the proper equipment you should be able to quarter the wafer without taking it out of the glass container.  But why draw the mixed vaccine out of a bottle?
I mix mine in an empty bottle so I can cap it and shake it to get it mixed well, then dump it in a shot glass for the syringe.
Title: can anyone give me some tips?
Post by: greeneggsandham on May 01, 2011, 08:44:08 PM
Well, I used a glass baby food jar as recommended on another site.  You can\'t turn an open jar upside down to draw out liquid in the syringe and as a result, I got air bubbles that were impossible to get out unless I wanted to shoot live vaccine all over me and the floor.
Title: can anyone give me some tips?
Post by: John on May 01, 2011, 09:00:12 PM
Quote
re-vaccinate in a few weeks?

I have not heard that it is recommended or will do any good, by anyone really knowledgeable on the subject or in any instructions I\'ve read.
I went to the Spring Fowl Fest, here in mid Michigan, on Saturday.  Vic Hakes, with Twin City Poultry Supply, was setup there and we talked about this very subject.  He had the vaccine there to sell and I had recently bought 6...not knowing I already had 6 hiding in the refrigerator out in the hatchery office.  Anyway, I mentioned how nice it would be if we could get units with fewer doses (like 250 rather than 1,000) and he said the manufacturers won\'t consider doing that.  Remember they say to mix and use it all at one time.  Don\'t split the wafer and all that stuff (even thought many do).  Victor\'s comment was that even if you only vaccinate 50 chicks with a unit (1,000 dose bottle) it only runs about 40 some cents per chick.  If you feel it is needed and you look at it that way rather than $20 for a bottle, it is worth it.
Title: can anyone give me some tips?
Post by: Jean on May 01, 2011, 10:03:50 PM
Quote from: greeneggs&ham
Well, I used a glass baby food jar as recommended on another site.  You can\'t turn an open jar upside down to draw out liquid in the syringe and as a result, I got air bubbles that were impossible to get out unless I wanted to shoot live vaccine all over me and the floor.


Just take the needles off and withdraw the vaccine and put the needle back on.
Title: can anyone give me some tips?
Post by: faith valley on May 01, 2011, 10:21:32 PM
It is easy to half or quarter a waffer that is still in the little bottle by using a tooth pick.  You can slice the waffer in half with teh tooth pick, then stab the waffer quarter or half with the tooth pick and pull it out of the bottle.
Title: can anyone give me some tips?
Post by: Beth C on May 02, 2011, 06:41:00 AM
Quote from: faith valley
It is easy to half or quarter a waffer that is still in the little bottle by using a tooth pick.  You can slice the waffer in half with teh tooth pick, then stab the waffer quarter or half with the tooth pick and pull it out of the bottle.


Ditto, except I use a needle.

Quote
Victor\'s comment was that even if you only vaccinate 50 chicks with a unit (1,000 dose bottle) it only runs about 40 some cents per chick.


But when you\'re doing a dozen, it ends up being 1/3 the value of the chick.  :stare:
Title: can anyone give me some tips?
Post by: Mike Gilbert on May 02, 2011, 08:50:10 AM
All I can say is that what I have been doing for the last 15 years is working for me.   Marek\'s was introduced here by a purchased bird in the early 1990\'s.  I didn\'t know what was going on until I lost the buff Ameraucana bantam pullet that won best AOCCL at the 1996 APA national meet held in Minnesota the following December, along with her best pullet sibling.  With that heartbreaking loss I realized what the problem had to be since they were very healthy in every other respect.  Since starting the vaccination program losses have been very minimal.  I quarter the wafer, drop 1/4 in an empty diluent bottle, pour in 1/4 of a bottle of chilled diluent, cap it, shake it up, pour it into a clean shot glass, draw a couple of syringes, shoot them down the drain, and commence vaccinating.  Air bubbles are not a problem.  If I get one, I simply discharge the dose back into the shot glass and draw a different one.  I also give a little more than the recommended dose since I always end up with extra to throw away anyway.  It works.  Most of the time I am only vaccinating from 20 to 50 chicks, so there is no way I\'m spending the extra money to use up a whole wafer each time.
Title: can anyone give me some tips?
Post by: Beth C on May 02, 2011, 10:09:09 AM
Quote
Most of the time I am only vaccinating from 20 to 50 chicks, so there is no way I\'m spending the extra money to use up a whole wafer each time.


Exactly. Plus, I grew up in a house full of people who lived through the depression - even if I could afford it, it\'s just not in my nature to waste 90% of something. (Although I admit with a $5 vaccine I\'m less inclined to try to stretch it.)

It would benefit everyone if the manufacturers would package 250 or even 500 dose vials. They aren\'t making any more money selling the big vials, since most people break them down anyway, and I think more people would vaccinate if they sold it in smaller & more economical doses.

Along the lines of vaccines, I have a question. I have been told by my NPIP testers (who even called while they were here and verified it with their supervisor) that it is illegal to use the MG vaccine in NC, and that no state has approved it\'s use, although Jeffers will sell it and ship it to me. They also told me that there are other vaccines that are only approved for large commercial operations and can be authorized for hobbyists only when they are in high risk areas. These rules are due to NC\'s massive poultry industry & fears of a live vaccine mutating and causing an outbreak. It is a bit unsettling, since I could have bought & used this vaccine w/o ever knowing I was breaking the law if I hadn\'t mentioned it while the tester was here (would seem that they would publicize this law a bit better). He also told me that vaccinated birds would show a false positive if tested for MG, resulting in quarantine of the premises. Just wondering if anyone else has encountered this in their state and what they have been told.
Title: can anyone give me some tips?
Post by: Jean on May 02, 2011, 10:49:03 AM
Beth,

That is probably the law for your State on live MG vaccine.  The Fort Dodge brand MG BAC, is not a live, it is a bacterin.

That is why the sell it and ship to your state.  
Title: can anyone give me some tips?
Post by: Beth C on May 02, 2011, 01:03:57 PM
Fort Dodge MG Bac is the one I ask him about, even showed him the page in the catalog to clarify. It doesn\'t make any sense to me, but he was adamant that NO MG vaccine was allowed in NC, no way, no how.
Title: can anyone give me some tips?
Post by: Jean on May 02, 2011, 02:06:49 PM
Apparently they do not know what they are talking about.  Just got off the phone with a Ms. Powell at NC Dept of Ag and she said no laws about MG vaccine and you can call her to confirm.

919-733-7601

I have a book of all 50 States and their import regulations, it\'s not yet complete, but I have most of the information I need to ship chicks legally into other States.
Title: can anyone give me some tips?
Post by: John on May 02, 2011, 03:40:25 PM
Quote
laws

To borrow a phrase from big brother...Don\'t Ask - Don\'t Tell.
The less said the better and do what you have to do to protect your property and investments.
IMH?O

Quote
smaller & more economical

The vaccines are not marketed to us breeders and small time fanciers so the manufacturers don\'t care.  
The waste is a shame.

Title: can anyone give me some tips?
Post by: Beth C on May 02, 2011, 04:02:11 PM
Thanks, Jean. Just got off the phone with Ms. Powell. When I explained what the testers had told me, she confirmed with the poultry vet, Dr. Sarah Mason and this is what Dr. Mason said:

Killed MG vaccine is allowed. However, if you use the vaccine you have to report it to the state because, if ever tested, vaccinated birds will test positive.

I am still pressing to get something in writing, to put the question to rest for good...
Title: can anyone give me some tips?
Post by: Beth C on May 02, 2011, 04:10:19 PM
John: That was my original plan, but the false positive thing scared me off.
Title: can anyone give me some tips?
Post by: Mike Gilbert on May 03, 2011, 01:50:33 PM
Why not just breed for genetic resistance to MG?  If adult birds are carriers it is best to expose young birds to them at an early age.  They will have a mild case, develop antibodies, and generally lead healthy lives after that.   Those that don\'t are candidates for culling.
Title: can anyone give me some tips?
Post by: Jean on May 03, 2011, 03:06:52 PM
Mike, that will work for the strain that one may have on their own property, but when you start showing, you expose your birds to other flocks\' germs.... there are many different strains of MG floating out there.

It is not a requirement of NPIP to test for MG.  Yes, you would get false positives, but there is no reason for the State to test for it unless your are selling a bird and someone wants to make sure it is MG negative.

It can also cause false positives on your pullorum test if given within a few weeks of testing.  Older birds can also cause false positives on the pullorum tests.  (I know these facts from personal experience.)
Title: can anyone give me some tips?
Post by: Beth C on May 03, 2011, 04:05:11 PM
It\'s not required for NPIP, but if you send a bird to the state lab for a necropsy (which I\'ve done), they are tested for MG. If you sell a bird to someone else and it comes up positive, the flock of origin is tested (this happened to a guy I know, but fortunately for him, his flock was clean, the birds were apparently infected after he sold them). If you are found to have a positive bird, your entire property is put under quarantine. While it is my understanding that they cannot force you to destroy your birds, they become essentially worthless because you can\'t sell or show until the quarantine is lifted, and it\'s lifted when your entire flock tests negative (i.e. all the positive birds are dead, since that is the only legal way to get rid of them).

Commercial poultry is big here - NC is the 4th largest state for broiler production & the 2nd highest for turkey. The big boys (Tyson, Perdue, Sanderson, Raeford, etc.) pretty much own the state. Neither vaccinating nor breeding for resistance (btw, Mike, I agree with you) is cost effective for them, and the rest of us have to bend to their will...

Edited to add: If I understand Dr. Mason correctly, if you report to the state that you are vaccinating you won\'t be put under quarantine, as long as nothing is showing symptoms.
Title: can anyone give me some tips?
Post by: John on May 04, 2011, 10:05:16 AM
Quote
The big boys (Tyson, Perdue, Sanderson, Raeford, etc.) pretty much own the state.

And, if they had their way none of our flocks would exist.  They have the money to lobby to get their way and would love to have the government regulate fanciers and small farmers right out of owning chickens and other livestock.   :(
Title: can anyone give me some tips?
Post by: Beth C on May 04, 2011, 11:46:19 AM
It\'s really scary. They control everything. Other than hobbyists like us, there really aren\'t any independent growers anymore - every single farm (at least here) is under contract with one of *them.* We\'ve got guys who\'ve been on the land 6 generations but have no say over what goes on there anymore, because they went so far in debt building the facility the company demanded that they can\'t stay afloat if they lose their contracts. Several growers were very much opposed to switching from roll-up walls to the new style housing where the birds are raised completely in the dark,  but they had no choice if they wanted to hold onto their farms.