Ameraucana Breeders Club
The Official Forum of the Ameraucana Breeders Club => Breeding => Topic started by: John Jordan on May 06, 2015, 09:01:52 AM
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I have been told that if you breed a black cock to a splash hen, you will get 100% blue chicks. Can anyone confirm this? and would it also be true that a splash cock to a black hen would also give you 100% blue? If both are true would it be dark blue or light blue? My objective is to determine if I want to keep any splash hens or cocks to breed with.
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I am just getting started with the BBS, but I've had wheaten/blue wheatens for several years and the color genetics for wheaten/blue wheaten/splash wheaten are the same as for BBS. Yes, it is true that if you breed splash (cock or hen) to black (cock or hen), you will get all blues. So, if BB = black, Bb = blue, and bb = splash, this is what their breeding would look like.
BB(black) x BB(black) = 100% BB (black)
BB(black) x Bb(blue) = 50% BB (black) and 50% Bb (blue)
Bb(blue) x Bb(blue) = 25% BB(black), 50% Bb(blue), and 25% bb(splash)
BB(black) x bb(splash) = 100% Bb(blue)
Bb(blue) x bb(splash) = 50% Bb(blue) and 50% bb(splash)
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John, This is a great question that comes up frequently, and as Susan posted, the numbers work best with this mating if you want only blue offspring. I am not sure if you can predict the shade of blue with this mating. But there are some that say you have to go back to Black to keep good dark blues and use good solid blues to keep your splash from diluting over time. In this vein, many have bred Blue to Black thru the years, sometimes you have to use what you have. But if your goal is to raise one color Blue or Black, then there are some advantages in using specific families.
First if your goal is to breed blues, some would say breed only best blues to blues. But IMO, you can use (blacks, blues and splashes) if these birds are bred out of good blue lines. One advantage is you can be more assured that the blacks will be carrying the Blue edging (lacing) that you want on the blues. The Splash from these families should have lacing too. Hopefully you can see some of this on the blue feathers in the splash color. Also the blue is better to be based on a silver "S" gene. Not the silver variety, but carries silver rather than gold. The Best Black birds will carry gold instead of the silver genes. Some of the Blue Black folks hopefully will chime in here as I know several keep lines of each color.
Read thru the article at the top of this category "Laced Blue AMs" for some of the discussions about blues in general. It discusses building a line with out-crosses which is a long process, but has some really good info about blues and the genetics too. BTW. Christy is off shore and I am not sure if her AM families might make it back to the mainland. But there are a few mainland folks that have already made this cross in case you are interested in Blues in this effort. I think that your neighbor Stan has talked about getting some of these. You might bug him for some Buffs when you are ready too.
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The color blue is highly variable in expression. I can tell you from experience that when breeding black to splash the shade of blue will be all over the scale. There will be some that are terribly patterned but there will also be some that are extremely beautiful. Some of my best blues have come from a black/splash breeding. You just have to dig through the trash to find the treasure... ;)
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Max do you think that when a blue chick hatches, the darker the down is usually means that the chick will have better lacing? It seems to work like this on my blue chicks.
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Max do you think that when a blue chick hatches, the darker the down is usually means that the chick will have better lacing? It seems to work like this on my blue chicks.
That seems to be the case in my experience. Look for a dark area on the head also. Lighter blue chicks have been disappointing in the lacing/edging. They would sure be striking if they did have it though.
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Thanks Sharron. I was wondering if it was just my line or if others noticed this also.
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The genetics to get good lacing include Pg, Co, and maybe a melanizer....there is a lot more involved than just breeding for the dilute gene that gives the blue feather...that is one reason to breed only blue to blue..another is to keep from introducing the gold base gene that the better blacks are said to be based on...not sure that is true..but it has been accepted by a lot of breeders..nothing prettier in my mind than a good blue.
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I have found that with the chick down the darker the blue the better. Also I look for more yellow down on the chest and belly instead of the white. They seem to be the most uniform in color when they grow out. The edging seems to be more defined as well. They don't really have true lacing...yet. To be continued.... :)
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Max, I have my first blues with yellow belly down ;D! So glad you mentioned it!
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I have found that with the chick down the darker the blue the better. Also I look for more yellow down on the chest and belly instead of the white. They seem to be the most uniform in color when they grow out. The edging seems to be more defined as well. They don't really have true lacing...yet. To be continued.... :)
Do you know what the yellow and white signify?
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No, not really. Just a theory. They seem to be more uniform and evenly colored with the yellow down.
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Thanks Max! This can help in culling chicks at a young age and save money on feed.
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Max that is a smart way to learn and put it into practice. I really like the idea of being able to cull at hatch. I hedge my bets and end up feeding a lot of young ones. Different families have their own expressions. Which lines are your blues from? I will mark some of my family of birds to see if I can find a similar pattern.
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I'm sure there is some genetic explanation that is still out of my reach. Different lines may produce better birds from chicks with the white chick down. I would keep all the darkest blue chicks regardless. I got my start from Paul by the way... Some of my Blue Andalusian chicks are so dark it's hard to tell them apart from the blacks until they are about a week old. And they have the white chick down on their chest and bellies.
I think it is a matter of learning what your own lines produce. Keep good records and take pictures along the way. In a few years you will have a pretty good idea how they will grow out when they hatch. ;)
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I'm sure there is some genetic explanation that is still out of my reach. Different lines may produce better birds from chicks with the white chick down. I would keep all the darkest blue chicks regardless. I got my start from Paul by the way... Some of my Blue Andalusian chicks are so dark it's hard to tell them apart from the blacks until they are about a week old. And they have the white chick down on their chest and bellies.
I think it is a matter of learning what your own lines produce. Keep good records and take pictures along the way. In a few years you will have a pretty good idea how they will grow out when they hatch. ;)
Now that could be significant. That's why I'm wondering what the color means. I think it is interesting that the Andalusians, which are supposed to be carrying silver, have the white down instead of yellow. Just wondering out loud here. If that means silver instead of gold.
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Like everyone else here, I’m still trying to figure out the dos and don’ts and have been focused on how (and what) to breed in hopes of improving the blue Ameraucana. One thing I think is important when crossing blacks into the mix is to try and only use the blacks that have been hatched out of blues and carry the silver (S) gene. I also believe (but is not fact) that the blues you see that look muddy or dirty could be a result of them having a gold (G) gene parent. If you must combine them for some reason (if that’s all you have) there are ways around it.
When I first started breeding Ameraucanas, I started with a blue male and a black (G) female. Females will only take their daddy’s gene, while males will take a gene from both…so I was told. If you are trying to create a blue (S) pen, only keep the blue females from a cross like that (since she only has daddy’s gene) and only keep the black males from that cross if working towards your black (G) pen, then either cross the black back to his mother or a (G) female you’ve purchased from someone else.
I am currently trying a project using a black (G) male with a splash (S) female in hopes of getting the awesome qualities I have in a particular black male I got from Clif, into my blue pen. This male is as gentle as they come, has a straight comb, and is as wide as he is tall. I REALLY want his qualities added into my blues so I bred him to splash hen (that is out of a blue male that has really nice lacing/edging), so hopefully she carries that, too. Although all chicks will be blue, this chick (hoping it’s a male) carries both parent’s gene and then I will cross him back to a well laced blue and keep them all in my blue pens. I would not keep or breed back to a blue female out of this cross since she would only carry her daddy’s gold gene.
When breeding for good blues, I personally prefer to breed blues to blues since I can see what I’m dealing with, but I have also kept splash and black (S) if I like other qualities about them. This is just information (whether true or false) that I feel I have learned by trial and error and hope that it is helpful to others.
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Good info Sharon. I know we've discussed it here many times that its best to use the females from crosses for several reasons. One reason is the sex-linked genes of the Gold/Silver. Its good to know there are ways to work with stock if needed and still get the benefits of the best genes. I have to go back to the "Sellers" website to refresh in my mind framework of the genetic discussions.
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Blues are basically a black bird with the dilution gene. So they should be Gold base as well.
I would imagine you would have to cross a blue or black to a silver to get the silver gene introduce.
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Blues are basically a black bird with the dilution gene. So they should be Gold base as well.
I would imagine you would have to cross a blue or black to a silver to get the silver gene introduce.
I want to explain my post. For the longest time I and others thought that blues were silver base (S/S). Then someone clarified something I should have known that blue is a virtually a black bird with the blue dilution gene. So blues are most likely gold base (s+/s+)
It is said that the best blues are silver base (opinion of people) And for those who want to start a silver base blue line. You would have to breed a silver cock to a blue hen and only use the daughter since she will not inherit Gold from mom. And go from there.